On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
That gives me an idea if we can create multiple Gronti but smaller than the giant ones we know.
*Enemies of Dawi attack Khazagar*
Snorri: Khazagar and Karak Drakk is threatened! Man the boundaries, protect us, do your duty to Dawi kind! *Hits the rune*
Khazagar:
I also looked for the statements Cursix was referencing since I vaguely remember them myself and could not find them.
Well, if we go for what I have in mind it's going to be built on turn 57 or 58. And since she is the Heir (with all that entails for our lineage) and they are effectively her retainers too/she's being trained to direct them, and they spend more time protecting her than us, I don't think they're going to be hurt by her making something out of their request.
That said I also don't have a problem with making it on Turn 58 ourselves alongside Brynbar.
I've never seen the actual proposal before and derivation is not a straightforward street in Runecraft. Purification is derived from Spelleating, apparently, and it'd be quite tricky to tell. Thungni's Presence is also in part derived from Spelleating and is better for this than Spelleating since Thungni's Presence actually talks about feeding energy to runes - Spelleating does not and also throws in modification of enemy memories as a confounding element completely irrelevant to what Flamedrinking does.
If these two don't work out we can try the spelleating version.
I'm not sure why you are asking BelligerentGnu about the talisman (presumably Brynbar), you're looking for Mr. Idiot for that.
I also remembered what Cursix mentioned, and it seems natural that a Gronti that was there at the start would be treated differently to one added on a hundred years later, however I also can't find the WoG.
Heir actions are interchangable. I'd agree its fine. I just don't think its the spirit of the request. Happy to do it T58.
Seems dubious that we're starting out with the version that involves additional connections rather than just the more explicit version.
You are correct, I got it mixed up from your attributions.
E:
That gives me an idea if we can create multiple Gronti but smaller than the giant ones we know.
*Enemies of Dawi attack Khazagar*
Snorri: Khazagar and Karak Drakk is threatened! Man the boundaries, protect us, do your duty to Dawi kind! *Hits the rune*
Khazagar:
No we can't do a Gronti army, each of them requires an MRune which is a limited resource. The closest Snorri would be willing to do would be 3. And touching the rule of pride like that would probably make Vragni even angrier.
No we can't do a Gronti army, each of them requires an MRune which is a limited resource. The closest Snorri would be willing to do would be 3. And touching the rule of pride like that would probably make Vragni even angrier.
I guess it would be more possible if we research further into our personal golem which is created by Snorri's armour, hammer and cape. But yeah, it would anger Vragni more but I would like for us to craft a Gronti.
I guess it would be more possible if we research further into our personal golem which is created by Snorri's armour, hammer and cape. But yeah, it would anger Vragni more but I would like for us to craft a Gronti.
No. Crafting a Gronti wouldn't be what angers Vragni:
Making the mascot of the Runiversity an example of exactly how far Snorri thinks the Rule of Pride can be pushed, and far further than he's already shown he's willing to, when he's already way over what Vragni thinks is the limit.
That is what would be so upsetting to Vragni. Moreso than if we made 3 things that don't share MWaking but are still a flex.
Making multiple Gronti is actually an implicitly political statement unless we develop MWaking variations that don't conflict with the Rule of Pride. And generally we'd prefer to keep Khazagar from being more politically radical if possible so we alienate as few potential visitors as possible.
Actually now that I think about it, who do we need to persuade in order for the Snorist to become, if not pervasive then at least widely accepted :
Thoughts on Politics of the Golden Age
Moderate Runelords: This is the point above, we need at least a majority of the House of Runelords to be willing to say 'not my monkey not my business', choose to do nothing about us or Vrangi. To do this the best way is to show results, it is hard to argue with the man who made windsight or glimril, or you know broke the damn Rule of Three. The coin of runelords is prestige so gain such prestige that a crittical mass of his fellows is unwilling to align against Snori
The Kings/Queens: we saw with Gloin most rulers to not really understand runesmith traditions and they do not really care to beyond the basics, but what they do care is when such traditions spil over into disagreement that impacts normal politics between holds. The way to get them on board is to show them actual material benefit, for them and their holds. In a way Snori and his philosophy is deal for this as that is the main point of it... but he does not engage with the kings and politics, to some extent I think he can't, it is too painful to see beardlings where respected peers used to be and that is going to keep getting worse. That is one of the reasons we need apprentices to toot our horn in ways that are actually in accordance to our values. Every new Hold with a Snorist runesmith that does well will be marked, kings are by their nature politicians, in the ideal circumstances they will want Snorists, even if they would be grateful for any of the Kin of Thungi of course
The other cults: We have seen it with the Valayans being able to trade favor freely, we see it with the significant boons they give our hearthguard, the Cults are the rock solid base of dwarfen life. If they love us and sing our praises it is going to be harder for rivals to uproot our ideas. Since cults exist on the elvel of the Karaz Ankor you get more boom for buck from any of them than any single king. I think we should focus the Hearthguard here when they are not urgently needed elsewhere
Why not put 3 on ESP for 3 turns?
ESP finishes one turn later but we complete Monolithmastery and have 2 turns of prods to throw at something else, could complete Movement 6b and possibly 6c aswell.
Well, that is a good plan and I would vote for it, but honestly seeing how our research on revolutionary topics has worked on this quest up to this point I doubt that we would get anything usable out of ESP research until we reach level 2 or even 3 (which is another 20-30 actions per level)...
That is why I prefer to finish what we have in our hands before moving to another project, and all the Albionese Stuff and to a lesser extent Soul and Body, because once we finish them that is it we reap it's rewards immediately without unlocking a massive tech tree...
But as I said as long as we are not ignoring the Nuke that the fimir are sitting on it is a decent plan (and as I said before, this turn we have run out of excuse to keep ignoring them)
I also remembered what Cursix mentioned, and it seems natural that a Gronti that was there at the start would be treated differently to one added on a hundred years later, however I also can't find the WoG.
Bungie, Cursix raised a good point that every turn we don't do the Runiversity golem it becomes less and less a symbol of Khazagar. Do you think that we're full on abandoning the guardian golem idea for the Runiversity
Well, if we go for what I have in mind it's going to be built on turn 57 or 58. And since she is the Heir (with all that entails for our lineage) and they are effectively her retainers too/she's being trained to direct them, and they spend more time protecting her than us, I don't think they're going to be hurt by her making something out of their request
TBH, I don't see any reason to rush the Dragon Gontri thingy when we have not even finished Soul and Body which would almost definitely improve the "programing" of any gronti and thanks to the new smelter productivity it is feasible to make it entirely out of Adamant (if we go for an "smelter Rush turn"), which will definitely give us another Mythical Deed by itself...
We don't need people to become Snorrist.
If our goal is to spread runelore widely enough to minimise the loss after the time of woes then that conservative who traded a bunch for shifting steel and binding form is doing enough to help simply by engaging with the Snorrists.
Additionally, notice that actually what you're talking about showing results for, thats not the result of the Snorrist philosophy, its Snorri's hermit like research paying off. You're advocating for Nobelitus that Snorri is accomplished in other fields so he probably has good ideas about something else.
If you want to show results that actually show the value of sharing knowledge and ideas, you're going to have to actually wait for the Runiversity attendees to start making their mark on the world.
Do not drag other religious cults or secular rulers into Runesmith business. Pretty damm sure this is potentially bad end shave your beard territory.
It almost did when people started considering a Valayan write in that would have intractably put the vows of Valayans at odds against the vows of Runepriests for the prosphetics. Fortunately soulcake stepped in and vetoed it in thread.
Well, that is a good plan and I would vote for it, but honestly seeing how our research on revolutionary topics has worked on this quest up to this point I doubt that we would get anything usable out of ESP research until we reach level 2 or even 3...
That is why I prefer to finish what we have in our hands before moving to another project, and all the Albionese Stuff and to a lesser extent Soul and Body, because once we finish them that is it we reap it's rewards immediately without unlocking a massive tech tree...
But as I said as long as we are not ignoring the Nuke that the fimir are sitting on it is a decent plan (and as I said before, this turn we have run out of excuse to keep ignoring them)
TBH, I don't see any reason to rush the Dragon Gontri thingy when we have not even finished Soul and Body which would almost definitely improve the "programing" of any gronti and thanks to the new smelter productivity it is feasible to make it entirely out of Adamant (if we go for an "smelter Rush turn")
Honestly I'd be happy to drop it permenantly. I've thought for a long time the Gronti plans where feature creeped beyond a useful design, cough, armour, cough, and Khazagar is already a wonder. I just wanted clarity on if there was a plan to do it.
We don't need people to become Snorrist.
If our goal is to spread runelore widely enough to minimise the loss after the time of woes then that conservative who traded a bunch for shifting steel and binding form is doing enough to help simply by engaging with the Snorrists.
Additionally, notice that actually what you're talking about showing results for, thats not the result of the Snorrist philosophy, its Snorri's hermit like research paying off. You're advocating for Nobelitus that Snorri is accomplished in other fields so he probably has good ideas about something else.
If you want to show results that actually show the value of sharing knowledge and ideas, you're going to have to actually wait for the Runiversity attendees to start making their mark on the world.
Do not drag other religious cults or secular rulers into Runesmith business. Pretty damm sure this is potentially bad end shave your beard territory.
It almost did when people started considering a Valayan write in that would have intractably put the vows of Valayans at odds against the vows of Runepriests for the prosphetics. Fortunately soulcake stepped in and vetoed it in thread.
Yep, pretty much, that is how any kind of institutional/cultural change happens in the Karaz Ankor, that is how it happened so far in this quest. A lot of early Snorists became Snorists because they saw Trollslayer or because our bolt thrower helped kill Kholek, not because they were instantly persuaded by the half a dozen syllables Snori said about his actual philosophy in between grunts and grumbles, that is why Khazad was able to exist. A relatively small portion of the prestige that got us here was because of our attitude to the Rule of Pride. That is not a problem with my framing, it is how prestige driven gerontocracies work, any problems with that should be brought to the Ancestor Gods for not teaching critical thinking when their students started worshiping them.
To be honest I started this post arguing against it on narrative grounds, it would be retreading ground both in making the Halls of the Everlasing and in raising actual no-kidding dragons, but then I thought what would the hypothetical uninterested moderate think of this whole thing? Like it or not we are in a political argument over the proper way to make runes and trade runes. So if you have someone with no strong feelings on the theology of the matter, they could be swayed to either position on the Rule of Pride (or knowing dwarfs they have their own precise position somewhere in the middle) the one thing that might most easily sway them to the conservative PoV (true conservative I mean not Vrangi's reactionary thought) in my opinion is the danger of enemies of the dwai getting their hands on runesmiths or Thungi-forbid books on runes.
Karak Drak is not going to come under attack by beings willing and able to breach Khazad any time soon, in fact I am willing to argue that it will never come under such an attack while the school itself is fully functional and the paths for reinforcements are open. We managed to hold the Incurcion with less than we have now,
But this is not really about safety, it is about the politics and the paranoia of people far away in warmer climes. Paradoxically people are likely to be more worried about distant threats because they do not have all the info and humans (as well as dwarfs and elves in this case I would asume) have a negativity bias, they are going to fill the blank spaces with more danger than is there.
We need that gontri as a show piece and we need it yesterday preferably, though the turn after nex will have to do. The more we wait the more the safety minded runelords, not Vrangi's lot the actual moderates, will go against us.
Interesting you should make that argument that we need a show piece, but it rests on two things. The first is the scale of their paranoia being normal for a hypothetical moderate. Referencing the defenses provided in the workshop vote:
- [ ] Marvellous: +5 actions, +12 Size, Requires Extravagant Lodgings at minimum, Unlocks Capstone Project write-in vote, +1 Conservative and Radical Runesmith Standing. Insane? Maybe to some. Secure? Beyond question. Almost enough to make you think more can't be done, almost. As before, but even Grander. Great Artillery pieces capable of shooting wyverns from the sky, of launching boulders that can paste entire bands of enemy warriors. Runic defenses second only to the Karak itself. You'll create something so impressive that by virtue of its strength Gloin will most likely make it the lynchpin of the Karak's outer defenses. If staffing the lesser option was difficult this would be near impossible with just your Hearth Guard, you will most certainly need extra bodies to man this structure to full readiness, around say a middling-sized Clan's worth of warriors. Then to top it all off, you plan to create a defensive work so mighty, so grand, that only a southern hold could hope to match it! You would not beggar yourself, but you would feel the cost of such an undertaking.
It is secure Beyond Question. To be secure beyond question means that nobody can reasonably question it. That includes a hypothetical moderate. If a person believes that a structure that is secure beyond question is not secure enough, they're not a hypothetical moderate, we're actually talking about a hypothetical obsessive giga-paranoid moderate. Your argument is not built to be supported by a paranoiac.
And secondly, nobody but his heir and master and Hearthlord have looked at his full private blueprints for the place. Its very unlikely anyone in the world knows about our plans to build a massive Gronti for Khazagar, so I think us as players we might be a bit biased because we've talked about it for an IRL year. Nobody actually knows. Best they got is the top of the seventh tower, which might be a Brana landing spot for all they know.
So in summary because your argument is trying to base itself off the typical hypothetical moderate, but is actually discussing a paranoiac handful of dwarves, and no one actually knows the Capstone should exist except for us and our closest companions your argument doesn't have anything to stand on.
I basically approached your point like you were caring about if it was derived or not - I didn't agree with that perspective, but its what I engaged with all the same, so I brought up Thungni's Presence as a way to point out that you kinda "get what you want" anyway. I see I was in error.
But all that said, actual function is far far more important than derivation. Combos care about Actual Effect and thematic imagery.
You'll note, if you go back and read the making combos explanation from Soul, they give zero mention about derivations or connections.
Since the Combo Effect is what we'll turn into Flamedrinking, I don't think we actually need to care about what a rune is derived from.
I also looked for the statements Cursix was referencing since I vaguely remember them myself and could not find them.
Well, if we go for what I have in mind it's going to be built on turn 57 or 58. And since she is the Heir (with all that entails for our lineage) and they are effectively her retainers too/she's being trained to direct them, and they spend more time protecting her than us, I don't think they're going to be hurt by her making something out of their request.
That said I also don't have a problem with making it on Turn 58 ourselves alongside Brynbar.
I've never seen the actual proposal before and derivation is not a straightforward street in Runecraft. Purification is derived from Spelleating, apparently, and it'd be quite tricky to tell. Thungni's Presence is also in part derived from Spelleating and is better for this than Spelleating since Thungni's Presence actually talks about feeding energy to runes - Spelleating does not and also throws in modification of enemy memories as a confounding element completely irrelevant to what Flamedrinking does.
If these two don't work out we can try the spelleating version.
I'm not sure why you are asking BelligerentGnu about the talisman (presumably Brynbar), you're looking for Mr. Idiot for that.
Also flamedrinking is listed as a future rune so the canonicity of the original proposal is questionable to begin with. Though admittedly that does lend weight to furnace actually working in the combo if it is the canon way it's invented.
The dragon gronti hasn't been forgotten, it's just missing 2 (or three depending on how you view Snorri forging in a storm of magic to make it as a good idea or not). We need engineering siphoning and around 190 bars of adamant as well as a magic limiter forging item if you want to make it during a storm. The new smelters are part of a long term plan to get to that needed amount (3 of the new smelters plus the old ones being waystone tapped in a storm of magic turn will output like 200 bars and meet the requirement). Flamedrinking is the last rune needed for the storm of magic surivival talisman.
I know Bungie doesn't want to make the dragon during a storm because of the risk but I think it's manageable if we have the flamegrasp gauntlet to rate limit the magic going through Snorri.
Yep, pretty much, that is how any kind of institutional/cultural change happens in the Karaz Ankor, that is how it happened so far in this quest. A lot of early Snorists became Snorists because they saw Trollslayer or because our bolt thrower helped kill Kholek, not because they were instantly persuaded by the half a dozen syllables Snori said about his actual philosophy in between grunts and grumbles, that is why Khazad was able to exist. A relatively small portion of the prestige that got us here was because of our attitude to the Rule of Pride. That is not a problem with my framing, it is how prestige driven gerontocracies work, any problems with that should be brought to the Ancestor Gods for not teaching critical thinking when their students started worshiping them.
All true which is why the windsight push over the next few turns is a good start to doing the research trifecta. Remember that a lot of conservatives already came despite their differences because of the chainmaker deed so Khazagar started with a major prestige leg up. The more mythical deeds Snorri racks up the less opposing factions can grumble.
Also flamedrinking is listed as a future rune so the canonicity of the original proposal is questionable to begin with. Though admittedly that does lend weight to furnace actually working in the combo if it is the canon way it's invented.
The dragon gronti hasn't been forgotten, it's just missing 2 (or three depending on how you view Snorri forging in a storm of magic to make it as a good idea or not). We need engineering siphoning and around 190 bars of adamant as well as a magic limiter forging item if you want to make it during a storm. The new smelters are part of a long term plan to get to that needed amount (3 of the new smelters plus the old ones being waystone tapped in a storm of magic turn will output like 200 bars and meet the requirement). Flamedrinking is the last rune needed for the storm of magic surivival talisman.
I know Bungie doesn't want to make the dragon during a storm because of the risk but I think it's manageable if we have the flamegrasp gauntlet to rate limit the magic going through Snorri.
And, additionally, a point of note for everyone to think about here. We don't need a storm or waystone tapping to get to an entirely Adamant dragon in practical time.
By turn 58 we will have 79-80 bars in storage, depends when we build the banner and Brynbar. At that point we need a 112. Building another smelter that turn will cost 10 bars and bump us to 16 bars that same turn needing 118.
118 bars required divided by 16 bars a turn = eight turns (7.375 rounded up). And we could build another smelter to push production to 22 bars a turn and time to wait to just over five turns (so really six). This is not a Rule of Pride question - we can do this by spreading the work between Snorri and Karstah.
To put a more solid date on things, I want to build the dragon on turn 64 or 65.
Turn 59. Have 90 bars. -10 bars +6 bars, down to 86. Production is 16 bars.
Turn 60. Have 102. -10 bars +6 bars, down to 98. Production is 22 bars. Karstah builds this one.
4.2 turns.
We don't need Storm of Magic or Waystones, but to be clear? I expect the Storm to arrive sometime around turn 62, based on the gap of time between the Incursion and the First Storm. If this happens any time after we have the next smelter built, we're golden.
If we unlock safer waystone tapping, same thing. ESP will lean into that very strongly - personally I expect it to drip lots of progress into Monolith Mastery and greatly reduce the Danger Chance.
It is secure Beyond Question. To be secure beyond question means that nobody can reasonably question it. That includes a hypothetical moderate. If a person believes that a structure that is secure beyond question is not secure enough, they're not a hypothetical moderate, we're actually talking about a hypothetical obsessive giga-paranoid moderate. Your argument is not built to be supported by a paranoiac.
To echo this sentiment, the defences of Khazagar is finished.
The Dragon is an extra thing on top of those defences.
If your cake is missing a cherry on top, but no one was outright told there was meant to be a cherry, you're not going to have people complaining about your cake not being finished.
Sure, some ant-fucker might complain about it needing just a bit more sweetness.
Just like how you might get some rando-dwarf commenting about the plinth like structure of the tallest tower.
Yep, pretty much, that is how any kind of institutional/cultural change happens in the Karaz Ankor, that is how it happened so far in this quest. A lot of early Snorists became Snorists because they saw Trollslayer or because our bolt thrower helped kill Kholek, not because they were instantly persuaded by the half a dozen syllables Snori said about his actual philosophy in between grunts and grumbles, that is why Khazad was able to exist. A relatively small portion of the prestige that got us here was because of our attitude to the Rule of Pride. That is not a problem with my framing, it is how prestige driven gerontocracies work, any problems with that should be brought to the Ancestor Gods for not teaching critical thinking when their students started worshiping them.
No the problem is that you believe there is ever going to be a Infinity +1 achievement so shiny that it will overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider.
This is the same stuff people where talking about to try and prevent Slayers by creating such an incredible gronti statue that Grimnir the Warrior becomes the dominant religion
If dwarves just compulsively fell in line behind the oldest most prestigious dwarf, monarchies wouldn't work the way we see them do. Elder siblings of the deceased would probably inherit before children just for the crown to then revert to a niece or nephew after the previous generation has completely died out.
You wouldn't have Snorri and that other Runelord nearly starting a fist fight in the middle of the conclave because they would have instictively calculated their relative age and prestiges and then the weaker dwarf would have submissively obeyed.
Age and prestige helps. But there will always be some fraction who won't be swayed by it. You're oversimplifying way too much.
I basically approached your point like you were caring about if it was derived or not - I didn't agree with that, but its what I engaged with all the same, so I brought up Thungni's Presence as a way to point out that you kinda "get what you want" anyway. I see I was in error.
But all that said, actual function is far far more important than derivation. Combos care about Actual Effect and thematic imagery.
You'll note, if you go back and read the combo explanation from Soul, they give zero mention about derivations or connections.
Since the Combo Effect is what we'll turn into Flamedrinking, I don't think we actually need to care about what a rune is derived from.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. When you say runes don't care about derivations?
Was it back when we were doing prostheses that Snorri noticed elements of the Rune of Fear showing up, because both started doing mental stuff? Derivation and function are intrinsically linked, because when elements of a rune show up they're probably doing something. Unless a significant fraction of a rune is junk which could be removed without changing the function of the rune.
That theres not a single linear path to any given rune, I think would be the most charitable interpretation I'd guess? Which... when we're talking about combos and rune understanding/compressions may even be beyond the scope of Durins consternation and may instead be a methodology question?
We don't know if there are multiple runes combos with the same effect (although I think its unlikely),
We don't know if different combos can compress to the same MRune,
We don't know if different MRunes can be understood into the same basic Rune.
We don't know if the runesmith in question who is doing all that understanding and compressing will have an effect as Uric McFiresmith prefers the heat elements of a combo and Borri Windhater prefers the anti magic effects meaning different runesmiths could get different runes from compress/understand according to their preferences.
Runes are language so a lot of this certainly sounds narratively plausible but going to stay background details because soulcake doesn't want to potentially triple his workload.
Back onto the specifics of Flamedrinker:
I think you're looking at the rune's description in the detailed rune list for proof the power exists, and then you're guessing how we're meant to replicate that effect?
I'm looking at the fluff description that was written (and soulcake accepted) as a clue for how we're meant to unlock it.
I think thats just it that we're giving different precedence to information and that's changing how we think we should approach this. So I don't know what you mean by function vs derivation.
No the problem is that you believe there is ever going to be a Infinity +1 achievement so shiny that it will overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider.
Right dwarfs would never get to starry-eyed about a bunch of really old people doing impressive stuff as to overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider? *pats statue of Thungi for confirmation*
Seriously thougthe h reason we could not do anything about the Slayer Cult, tragically idiotic as it may be, is what Snori had nothing to do with Grimnir or his works beyond the normal mount of combat expected of an elder of his skill and age. Snori is a Runesmith, dramatically overhauling Runesmithing is within his grasp, it is within the grasp of ancy sufficiently successful Rumesmith.
It is not the oldest dwarf, it is the oldest and most prestigious dwarf in their field, prestige is a matter of debate until you get so much of it none can gainsay you.
No the problem is that you believe there is ever going to be a Infinity +1 achievement so shiny that it will overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider.
This is the same stuff people where talking about to try and prevent Slayers by creating such an incredible gronti statue that Grimnir the Warrior becomes the dominant religion
If dwarves just compulsively fell in line behind the oldest most prestigious dwarf, monarchies wouldn't work the way we see them do. Elder siblings of the deceased would probably inherit before children just for the crown to then revert to a niece or nephew after the previous generation has completely died out.
You wouldn't have Snorri and that other Runelord nearly starting a fist fight in the middle of the conclave because they would have instictively calculated their relative age and prestiges and then the weaker dwarf would have submissively obeyed.
Age and prestige helps. But there will always be some fraction who won't be swayed by it. You're oversimplifying way too much.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. When you say runes don't care about derivations?
Was it back when we were doing prostheses that Snorri noticed elements of the Rune of Fear showing up, because both started doing mental stuff? Derivation and function are intrinsically linked, because when elements of a rune show up they're probably doing something. Unless a significant fraction of a rune is junk which could be removed without changing the function of the rune.
That theres not a single linear path to any given rune, I think would be the most charitable interpretation I'd guess? Which... when we're talking about combos and rune understanding/compressions may even be beyond the scope of Durins consternation and may instead be a methodology question?
We don't know if there are multiple runes combos with the same effect (although I think its unlikely),
We don't know if different combos can compress to the same MRune,
We don't know if different MRunes can be understood into the same basic Rune.
We don't know if the runesmith in question who is doing all that understanding and compressing will have an effect as Uric McFiresmith prefers the heat elements of a combo and Borri Windhater prefers the anti magic effects meaning different runesmiths could get different runes from compress/understand according to their preferences.
Runes are language so a lot of this certainly sounds narratively plausible but going to stay background details because soulcake doesn't want to potentially triple his workload.
Back onto the specifics of Flamedrinker:
I think you're looking at the rune's description in the detailed rune list for proof the power exists, and then you're guessing how we're meant to replicate that effect?
I'm looking at the fluff description that was written (and soulcake accepted) as a clue for how we're meant to unlock it.
I think thats just it that we're giving different precedence to information and that's changing how we think we should approach this. So I don't know what you mean by function vs derivation.
Honestly yes I think two runesmiths could compress the same combo and come out with different runes because runes are unique and it takes changing a single thing in their making to change the effect of the rune subtly. When Snorri simplified Thungni's presence he choose what parts to keep and left the passive magic breaking out and called it the normal rune of Thungni's Presence since he has naming rights as the first person to invent it. Another runesmith could simplify the master rune and come out with a rune that did actively break down magic but had a weaker buffing effect and would give it a different name or call it a varient of normal rune of Thungni's Presence.
With flamedrinking this might result in the rune sheet version or it could be something slightly different that still does a heat to magic conversion but also has heat resistance as well or something else. I think with the theme at least since we specified going in that we wanted basically the runesheet version, we'll probably get it if the roll succeeds but the combo might be different.
Right dwarfs would never get to starry-eyed about a bunch of really old people doing impressive stuff as to overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider? *pats statue of Thungi for confirmation*
Seriously thougthe h reason we could not do anything about the Slayer Cult, tragically idiotic as it may be, is what Snori had nothing to do with Grimnir or his works beyond the normal mount of combat expected of an elder of his skill and age. Snori is a Runesmith, dramatically overhauling Runesmithing is within his grasp, it is within the grasp of ancy sufficiently successful Rumesmith.
It is not the oldest dwarf, it is the oldest and most prestigious dwarf in their field, prestige is a matter of debate until you get so much of it none can gainsay you.
Would you like to hear a secret? Religion is a thing IRL and intelligent beings have somehow found that deitys typically agree with them doing whatever they were going to do anyway. Especially when that deity isn't in the room to contradict them.
Lets separate things out now because setting aside the fact that we aren't an Ancestor god and if soulcakes Age of Sigmar sidestories are any indication it will take us thousands of years to acheive it anyway: The fact is that the Ancestor gods aren't worshipped because they're the oldest. They lead a migration away from the ancient southern holds and massively restructured society. We know they can't have been the oldest at the time because if they were already in charge they wouldn't have needed to migrate away from the southern holds in order to resturcture society and they would have ruled from Zorn rather than KaK. They are likely to have been the oldest by the time this story started, however they weren't when they changed the world against the desires of the pre existing power structures.
But this is kinda off my original point, I didn't say we couldn't influence anyone, I said
Honestly yes I think two runesmiths could compress the same combo and come out with different runes because runes are unique and it takes changing a single thing in their making to change the effect of the rune subtly. When Snorri simplified Thungni's presence he choose what parts to keep and left the passive magic breaking out and the called the the normal rune of Thungni's Presence since he's the one who first invented it. Another runesmith could simplify the master rune and come out with a rune that did actively break down magic but had a weaker buffing effect.
With flamedrinking this might result in the rune sheet version or it could be something slightly different that still does a heat to magic conversion but also has heat resistance as well or something else. I think with the theme at least since we specified going in that we wanted basically the runesheet version, we'll probably get it if the roll succeeds but the combo might be different.
I generally agree with the first paragraph however I disagree with some of the implications you're making.
If we get the rune of flame drinking. We're getting the version from the sheet. Because at that point we step from the infinite possibilities of the narrative, where every possible rune is a distinct and unique rune, to the mechanical, where soulcake has to come up with, or approve a function for every possible rune.
Would you like to hear a secret? Religion is a thing IRL and intelligent beings have somehow found that deitys typically agree with them doing whatever they were going to do anyway. Especially when that deity isn't in the room to contradict them.
Lets separate things out now because setting aside the fact that we aren't an Ancestor god and if soulcakes Age of Sigmar sidestories are any indication it will take us thousands of years to acheive it anyway: The fact is that the Ancestor gods aren't worshipped because they're the oldest. They lead a migration away from the ancient southern holds and massively restructured society. We know they can't have been the oldest at the time because if they were already in charge they wouldn't have needed to migrate away from the southern holds in order to resturcture society and they would have ruled from Zorn rather than KaK. They are likely to have been the oldest by the time this story started, however they weren't when they changed the world against the desires of the pre existing power structures.
But this is kinda off my original point, I didn't say we couldn't influence anyone, I said
If Snori died tomorrow he would be an ancestor god, not one of the main ancestor gods of the whole Karaz Ankor, but of Winterhearth certainly and probably Karak Drak as well. I never said the seven were the oldest I said they were old and did impressive things. Each of them fundamentally defined a field of dwarf life. Funnily enough not only do we have access to an open field in the form of alchemy, but the Ancestor Gods themselves were planning and hoping for their deeds to be overcome.
Right dwarfs would never get to starry-eyed about a bunch of really old people doing impressive stuff as to overwrite all other decision making considerations that other dwarves consider? *pats statue of Thungi for confirmation*
Gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss.
Is this a technicality argument? That you didn't say it, just strongly implied it.
Anyway, my point was that they did those things in spite of them not being the oldest or most prestigous. So it doesn't really matter. Their whole migration is a rejection of the flanderised prestige driven gerontocracies you claim dwarf societies to be.
Really old isn't the same thing as oldest, if that was fundamental to my plan I would have written something like 'outlive all the opposition' -> 'win by default'.
Okay, calm down both of you. The main thing is that Ancestor Gods affected Dawi society thanks to their age and thanks to impressive things they done. From more mundane stuff to more supernatural stuff.
Anyway, my point was that they did those things in spite of them not being the oldest or most prestigous. So it doesn't really matter. Their whole migration is a rejection of the flanderised prestige driven gerontocracies you claim dwarf societies to be.
I don't really like calling things strawmanning since I feel that is an asumption of bad faith that gets thrown around too much so I will just repeat here: 'prestige based gerontocracy'. That was how I put it several posts ago
I don't really like calling things strawmanning since I feel that is an asumption of bad faith that gets thrown around too much so I will just repeat here: 'prestige based gerontocracy'. That was how I put it several posts ago
What do you want from me????
Are you upset because I used the plural? Or just because I disagree with the degree to which you believe they defer to age and prestige.
I'm not sure what you're saying here. When you say runes don't care about derivations?
Was it back when we were doing prostheses that Snorri noticed elements of the Rune of Fear showing up, because both started doing mental stuff? Derivation and function are intrinsically linked, because when elements of a rune show up they're probably doing something. Unless a significant fraction of a rune is junk which could be removed without changing the function of the rune.
That theres not a single linear path to any given rune, I think would be the most charitable interpretation I'd guess? Which... when we're talking about combos and rune understanding/compressions may even be beyond the scope of Durins consternation and may instead be a methodology question?
Runes are language so a lot of this certainly sounds narratively plausible but going to stay background details because soulcake doesn't want to potentially triple his workload.
I will admit I'm not totally sure how to answer your question. I'm going to need to ask some questions to clarify and try to get us to a point where we understand each other again.
Are you speculating here that I am saying there is not a single linear path to any given rune? If so, no. I am not saying that.
Back onto the specifics of Flamedrinker:
I think you're looking at the rune's description in the detailed rune list for proof the power exists, and then you're guessing how we're meant to replicate that effect?
I am not upset, this is a conversation about fantasy dwarfs on an internet forum, my point though is that within the format of dawi society the old the prestige is the most important than raw age. Old dwarfs are not respected just because they are old but because that age makes them better in their field overall through experience and because they have more time to do prestigious things.
I don't understand why you brought up the derivation of runes.
In this I was pointing to physical descriptions of the rune and suggesting that I think we should cleave closer to that if possible in order to maximise our chance of replicating.
Your position seems to have been that you think the combo you presented the most likely to create an effect matching what is described by the rune list.
As far as I can tell the disagreement doesn't need to be more than that.
I basically approached your point like you were caring about if it was derived or not - I didn't agree with that perspective, but its what I engaged with all the same, so I brought up Thungni's Presence as a way to point out that you kinda "get what you want" anyway. I see I was in error.
But all that said, actual function is far far more important than derivation. Combos care about Actual Effect and thematic imagery.
I don't know what you were trying to say here. Because function is related to derivation, when we see elements of a rune doing something in a different rune its because both of the runes are doing something similar even if that something is highly abstracted like forged limb, speech and fear all having mental effects.
However I also didn't want to just ignore something you were trying to say. Perhaps I should have just asked you to rephrase, like you've just done.
I am not upset, this is a conversation about fantasy dwarfs on an internet forum, my point though is that within the format of dawi society the old the prestige is the most important than raw age. Old dwarfs are not respected just because they are old but because that age makes them better in their field overall through experience and because they have more time to do prestigious things.
And my point is that if all it came down to was age and prestige, Gormak would have been king of Krakka Drak long before Otrek who was much much younger got Trollslayer.
Age and prestige help. But they're just a part of the equation.
