RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Alratan]

I think you are onto something but also I don't think Snori cares about being an artist that much, the things he makes are beautiful because of their function and they are ornate because it does not cost him functionality, but at the end of the day where he thrives is being a scientist and engineer. He wants to poke the big mysteries of the world and put them to work.

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He's a proto-scientist and engineer, but I think he's also an artist who cares deeply for the form as well as the function of his creations. I think he cares that they are beautiful for their own sake, in additional to their functionality, based on the descriptions we have of them.

On a related note, Snorri is also very notably xenophilic. He was instrumental in establishing relations with the Brana, has learned elven languages, associates closely with an elven mage, raised a trio of dragons, and sent his retainers to escort a party of elven archmages. He's also assembled a small research collection of foreign enchanted objects. I wonder if this extends to adapting non-elven aesthetics into his work.

More importantly, given the way polarisation works, Vragni may well end up opposing things associated with Snorri that he'd otherwise be indifferent or only mildly object to. Snorri's xenophilia seems like an obvious thing he might seize on, given that other dwarves might as well.

Talking of which, have we given runic items to the Shard Dragons (to allow them to talk, for instance).

 

[coalcat]

Talking of which, have we given runic items to the Shard Dragons (to allow them to talk, for instance).

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Yes, Karstah was taking their measurements a few turns ago and it was noted in recent description.

 

[Copperscale]

More importantly, given the way polarisation works, Vragni may well end up opposing things associated with Snorri that he'd otherwise be indifferent or only mildly object to. Snorri's xenophilia seems like an obvious thing he might seize on, given that other dwarves might as well.

Talking of which, have we given runic items to the Shard Dragons (to allow them to talk, for instance).

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He can pick at Snorri being Xenophilic all he likes, but it won't do him any favors.

If he's publicly an asshole about it, Ornsmotek might not get their own Brana Aerie when the brana population grows enough. Or more likely, they get bumped down the list behind Krum, Dorden and Ornsmotek.
And considering the politicking going on between the Kings of Drakk and Ornsmotek, the King of Ornsmotek won't be pleased about. Having a Brana Aerie is not just extremely useful, it's a sign of prestige which the King won't want to miss out on.

And yes, the Dragons all have runic items to let them talk. We had a scene with Karstah designing an adjustable harness to hold the rune as they grow. Would be pretty hard to socialize them if they couldn't speak properly.

 

[Ompa60]

Talking of which, have we given runic items to the Shard Dragons (to allow them to talk, for instance).

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Yes they have Translation Torques.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

Well, prismatic dragonblood is still a useful component.

And besides, what I consider to be the final smelter design is still pretty far away. We'd need to compress the current Smelter combo, for one, which I don't think will happen for a few centuries more.

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What are we missing other than flamedrinking for the final design at this point? Off the top of my head the only things I can think of are getting rid of the dragonblood if flamedrinking doesn't do it and hooking them up to the waystones/deep magic array to finish off the power side of the issue.

And yeah compression is going to take 3ap total and I don't think we're going to shake free 2ap to do that anytime soon.

 

[DragonParadox]

He's a proto-scientist and engineer, but I think he's also an artist who cares deeply for the form as well as the function of his creations. I think he cares that they are beautiful for their own sake, in additional to their functionality, based on the descriptions we have of them.

On a related note, Snorri is also very notably xenophilic. He was instrumental in establishing relations with the Brana, has learned elven languages, associates closely with an elven mage, raised a trio of dragons, and sent his retainers to escort a party of elven archmages. He's also assembled a small research collection of foreign enchanted objects. I wonder if this extends to adapting non-elven aesthetics into his work.

More importantly, given the way polarisation works, Vragni may well end up opposing things associated with Snorri that he'd otherwise be indifferent or only mildly object to. Snorri's xenophilia seems like an obvious thing he might seize on, given that other dwarves might as well.

Talking of which, have we given runic items to the Shard Dragons (to allow them to talk, for instance).

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As @IronFist says above that comes with political costs, not only in the form of Brana presence but elf trade, being xenophobic in this age is more likely to make a dwarf poorer than his competition especially if they live anywhere near the sea. More importantly for runesmiths though the way we are cheating and chiselling at the edges of the Consternation is based almost entirely on foreign lore and insights (mostly elven with some help from Brana mages). If a faction of runesmthe decides they do not want foreign derived lore... well they lose, they would not be able to use alchemy or adamant, wind sight or Waystones. Most of the big ticket magics are collaborative.

 

[Alratan]

Yes, Karstah was taking their measurements a few turns ago and it was noted in recent description.

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Thanks. I mention it because I remember mention that giving runecraft to members of a new species might prove very controversial amongst the rest of the guild.

He can pick at Snorri being Xenophilic all he likes, but it won't do him any favors.

If he's publicly an asshole about it, Ornsmotek might not get their own Brana Aerie when the brana population grows enough. Or more likely, they get bumped down the list behind Krum, Dorden and Ornsmotek.
And considering the politicking going on between the Kings of Drakk and Ornsmotek, the King of Ornsmotek won't be pleased about. Having a Brana Aerie is not just extremely useful, it's a sign of prestige which the King won't want to miss out on.

Click to shrink...

While dwarven collaboration with non-dwarves is, as you say, recognised and popular, I think that runesmiths specifically working closely with other races, giving them runecraft and collaborating with their magic users may be something that the wider community of runesmiths may have concerns about. Snorri hasn't even approached crossing any lines, but Vragni and others could well catastrophise about what happens behind closed doors or about where slippery slopes may lead future Snorrist runesmiths.

As @IronFist says above that comes with political costs, not only in the form of Brana presence but elf trade, being xenophobic in this age is more likely to make a dwarf poorer than his competition especially if they live anywhere near the sea. More importantly for runesmiths though the way we are cheating and chiselling at the edges of the Consternation is based almost entirely on foreign lore and insights (mostly elven with some help from Brana mages). If a faction of runesmthe decides they do not want foreign derived lore... well they lose, they would not be able to use alchemy or adamant, wind sight or Waystones. Most of the big ticket magics are collaborative.

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That's true, but lots of Conservative runesmiths' beliefs are arguably self-defeating, yet they still hold to them. Refusing to collaborate and the strong restrictions on sharing runecraft also hold the progression of their art back, but they see it as a proper price to pay to stay true to their faith.

Edit: note that Snorri has given runecraft to dragons (ancestral enemies of the dwarves), and Snerra has given it to a mammoth. This is what we've been told about giving runecraft to new species:

So just to clarify on the nature of your relations so far because there's been some discussion about it, there are no instances of a Runesmith, even a Journeyman, trading actual Runework to elves. Because unlike the Brana no one with the potential authority (IE a Runelord) is willing to begin such a thing, and if they do they'll be called into account by the House. Not so much for censure at least initially, but to prove the elves are worthy, and woe betide that Runelord if the Body disagrees with their assessment. You were going to have to do the same had Thungni not saved your ass by retroactively saying it's cool, and even then there were people who were grumbling about your minor bout of impudence. The timescales both races work on are long, not Lizardman long, but pretty long. 80 years ain't nothing, but it ain't something. Theoretically, the amulet Grimnir gave Caledor could count as evidence, but there's an argument to be had about whether it was for Caledor specifically or his people in general, and Grimnir didn't clarify before heading north so it's not like they can ask him. His retainers and personal companions, even Morgrim if you can reach him could say something. Thungni at the very least, is not speaking on the matter, though no one's actually gone and asked him.

The Case is there, but the question is about who's willing to risk the political fallout fighting for it, and canonically that was Snorri Whitebeard.

Grimnir got the ball rolling with Caledor, but its Snorri Whitebeard's friendship with Malekith is what greatly sped along that particular relationship, and before that happened, I imagine that, while not hostile, the Dwarfs are still weary of any outsiders. Not enough that they won't trade with them if they prove willing, but stuff like Runecraft is, despite your use of it, still a big step in terms of the relationship between both peoples. So yeah, no Runecraft.

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Snorri (and Snerra's) actions here have the potential to be very controversial, which Vragni could exploit.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

I doubt talking with Vragni is going to accomplish anything productive considering the two of them can't manage a civil conversation even when surrounded by Kings in the middle of a warzone.

The two southern runiversities are being built less because they're diametrically opposed to Snorri's politcs and more because Izril and Brynduraz consider themselves the preeminent runesmithing holds and see Drak as an upstart competitor. They're doing it out of ego more than anything and I doubt we'll see runesmiths leaving either hold because of political differences like what's happening at Ornsmotek. Both of them even consider Vragni around the same level of radical as Snorri just with a different flavor of crazy. Brynduraz even sees Drak as an up and coming potentially friendly rival.

I think the best of way of stifling Vragni's obsession is to ignore him and complete the research trifecta of windsight, breaking the rule of three, and the consternation after which literally no one will have the grounds to question Snorri's behavior. And at that point even the people who find it distasteful will shut up and suck it up to learn how he did it.

Thanks. I mention it because I remember mention that giving runecraft to members of a new species might prove very controversial amongst the rest of the guild.



While dwarven collaboration with non-dwarves is, as you say, recognised and popular, I think that runesmiths specifically working closely with other races, giving them runecraft and collaborating with their magic users may be something that the wider community of runesmiths may have concerns about. Snorri hasn't even approached crossing any lines, but Vragni and others could well catastrophise about what happens behind closed doors or about where slippery slopes may lead future Snorrist runesmiths.



That's true, but lots of Conservative runesmiths' beliefs are arguably self-defeating, yet they still hold to them. Refusing to collaborate and the strong restrictions on sharing runecraft also hold the progression of their art back, but they see it as a proper price to pay to stay true to their faith.

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In the north at least even in Ornsmotek I doubt that opinion on working with the Brana is anything but positive and that will influence their opinions on other races as well. In the south mostly people don't have strong opinions either way and even the extreme Snorri haters consider Vragni the same brand of radical. The North's schism in ideology is two different types of radicalism and won't really affect southern opinions much.

 

[Alratan]

In the north at least even in Ornsmotek I doubt that opinion on working with the Brana is anything but positive and that will influence their opinions on other races as well. In the south mostly people don't have strong opinions either way and even the extreme Snorri haters consider Vragni the same brand of radical. The North's schism in ideology is two different types of radicalism and won't really affect southern opinions much.

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If Snorri's major research projects pan out, as you discuss elsewhere, I think that Snorri's views and the reaction to them would be far more impactful on thee southern runesmith community.

If he invents alchemy, breaks the Rule of Three with runemetal and solves Durin's Consternation I think Snorrist views are likely to become significantly more popular across the Karaz Ankor.

Of course, that's a little way off.

 

[Dark as Silver]

@soulcake, what options do we have for dealing with Vragni? I still want to see us increase our Standing with him enough to unlock bonuses, but it's unclear how exactly we're supposed to do that with our relationship being what it is.

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I know soulcakes already spoken and the main thrust of the argument is over but I just want to comment, standing isn't a good way to understand relationships. Its a very basic mechanic.
If I was walking in the woods and encountered a bear, I would have an incredible amount of respect for it. That doesn't make it a good basis for building a relationship on.
Vragni can respect that Snorri is good at what he does, however his issue is... everything that Snorri does.

In a way, Vragni can draw a fair number of similarities between that storm of ash and fire to Klausson's own behaviour. Grand displays, bold words and mighty deeds, but that pushed away all others while blinding the fool within to the realities of the outside world. A walking font of destruction that could so easily harm as well as it helped. Seemingly unchecked by nothing save its own will.

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Making him like us isn't a matter of making him respect Snorri more, its a matter of changing their outlooks on things, which ain't easy with dwarves.
Actually getting benefits out of it? In a universe where Snorri has 8 standing with Vragni, arguably the system has broken down and in a sane world we wouldn't get bonuses. That or we get a bonus like "Vragni's apprentices keep trying to make Khazagar look bad by showing up and winning tournaments."

I think the best of way of stifling Vragni's obsession is to ignore him and complete the research trifecta of windsight, breaking the rule of three, and the consternation after which literally no one will have the grounds to question Snorri's behavior. And at that point even the people who find it distasteful will shut up and suck it up to learn how he did it.

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Unfortunately the best way to counter Vragni, is to not aggravate things and hope that he dies and gets replaced with a less aggravated apprentice. Or better yet, that he doesn't have a Runelord worthy apprentice which would rob his megaproject of a lot of presige. Repeat until relations have normalised.

 

[DragonParadox]

Unfortunately the best way to counter Vragni, is to not aggravate things and hope that he dies and gets replaced with a less aggravated apprentice. Or better yet, that he doesn't have a Runelord worthy apprentice which would rob his megaproject of a lot of presige. Repeat until relations have normalised.

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He is a dwarf, spite alone can keep him from dying of old age and that seems likely to happen. Our best hope is that we overshadow him so utterly that he... breaks. He is never going to admit he's wrong, but if we go far enough he might d it he's lost, that the Cult of Thungi cannot be saved from the madness of Snori, at which point he would probably go slayer to atone for the failure of letting it come to that.

 

[Alratan]

He is a dwarf, spite alone can keep him from dying of old age and that seems likely to happen. Our best hope is that we overshadow him so utterly that he... breaks. He is never going to admit he's wrong, but if we go far enough he might d it he's lost, that the Cult of Thungi cannot be saved from the madness of Snori, at which point he would probably go slayer to atone for the failure of letting it come to that.

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He won't die of old age, but if Snorri overshadows him enough he might feel it necessary to take increasingly risky measures to try to keep up until one day he gets unlucky and dies on a battlefield or doing high energy master rune research.

 

[BronzeTongue]

I said it above, but I still maintain that the way to moderate Vragni's behaviour is, effectively, deterrence. The costs of him escalating matters needs to be high enough that the collateral damage to the Cult/Guild and the blowback on his own faction is high enough that tolerating Snorri seems like the lesser evil.

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That's a good tactic in general, but I don't think it solves the problem we have in front of us right now.

Vragni's faction hasn't gone too far yet, but they're starting to move towards tactics that make it easy to get into a death spiral.

Unlike a clan or a purely mercantile guild the runesmiths can't just amicably part by having all the people in the younger political faction sod off to their own mountain. Avoiding a split later is best done by heading off the little things that facilitate splintering into factions that regard each other as distinct.

 

[DragonParadox]

He won't die of old age, but if Snorri overshadows him enough he might feel it necessary to take increasingly risky measures to try to keep up until one day he gets unlucky and dies on a battlefield or doing high energy master rune research.

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That is true, he is something of a radical in his own way. Still both options are out of out hands, the best we can do about Vragi is what we were doing already, our best at runesmithing. I think the larger question is how the Conclave is going to take this. From Alric's PoV it would be most convenient if he could just censure both the unruly radicals and have done with it, only one of them is part of his little treehouse debate club.

 

[Alratan]

That's a good tactic in general, but I don't think it solves the problem we have in front of us right now.

Vragni's faction hasn't gone too far yet, but they're starting to move towards tactics that make it easy to get into a death spiral.

Unlike a clan or a purely mercantile guild the runesmiths can't just amicably part by having all the people in the younger political faction sod off to their own mountain. Avoiding a split later is best done by heading off the little things that facilitate splintering into factions that regard each other as distinct.

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I'd hope that the measures overlap, that the same things that would deter a serious move against Snorri/Snorrist runesmiths would also make it less likely that small provocations will continue or escalate.

For example, Snorri and Vragni being seen repeatedly fighting in the same battle against common enemies should remind their more reckless followers that more unites than divides the factions. Having more apprentices in Snorri's lineage means there are more people out there who can show what Snorri's philosophy really is, rather than it being almost entirely represented and understood by the behaviour of self-styled Snorrists who've simply been inspired by what they project onto him.

That is true, he is something of a radical in his own way. Still both options are out of out hands, the best we can do about Vragi is what we were doing already, our best at runesmithing. I think the larger question is how the Conclave is going to take this. From Alric's PoV it would be most convenient if he could just censure both the unruly radicals and have done with it, only one of them is part of his little treehouse debate club.

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As I said above; I don't think runesmithing alone is enough. This isn't a problem that Snorri can manage by being a hermit in his workshop.

Runecraft is part of it, but I think that dealing with it means interacting with dwarven society, by taking apprentices, by going on campaign, etc. That means that Snorri will be more aware of risks before they turn into serious issues he has to deal with, and is more likely to be able to nip problems in the bud.

I think part of the problem is that Snorri actually has surprisingly little influence on the dwaves who claim to be his followers. There aren't that many runesmiths in his lineage they can use as an example of his teachings, and he himself has often disappeared from public view for many years on end. That means that his followers can accidentally make trouble by doing things they imagine Snorri would approve of when he actually wouldn't.

 

[Evillevi]

I'd hope that the measures overlap, that the same things that would deter a serious move against Snorri/Snorrist runesmiths would also make it less likely that small provocations will continue or escalate.

For example, Snorri and Vragni being seen repeatedly fighting in the same battle against common enemies should remind their more reckless followers that more unites than divides the factions. Having more apprentices in Snorri's lineage means there are more people out there who can show what Snorri's philosophy really is, rather than it being almost entirely represented and understood by the behaviour of self-styled Snorrists who've simply been inspired by what they project onto him.



As I said above; I don't think runesmithing alone is enough. This isn't a problem that Snorri can manage by being a hermit in his workshop.

Runecraft is part of it, but I think that dealing with it means interacting with dwarven society, by taking apprentices, by going on campaign, etc. That means that Snorri will be more aware of risks before they turn into serious issues he has to deal with, and is more likely to be able to nip problems in the bud.

I think part of the problem is that Snorri actually has surprisingly little influence on the dwaves who claim to be his followers. There aren't that many runesmiths in his lineage they can use as an example of his teachings, and he himself has often disappeared from public view for many years on end. That means that his followers can accidentally make trouble by doing things they imagine Snorri would approve of when he actually wouldn't.

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This is not I think a problem in so much a consequences of Snorri's philosophy for most of the quest. Snorri doesn't exert his influence in general and not in changing the choices of other people generally.

 

[Alratan]

This is not I think a problem in so much a consequences of Snorri's philosophy for most of the quest. Snorri doesn't exert his influence in general and not in changing the choices of other people generally.

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The thing is, Snorri does exert his influence, because as a runelord, every action he takes (including choosing not to take) is inherently political and influences junior runesmiths who look to him as an example of how they should act.

The way I look at it is that (we) Snorri has often been careless of his influence and the wider/collateral impact his choices have on those of others.

I think that's something making a success of Khazagar will require that he (we) learns to change.

 

[tri2]

just double down on it, only thing that can make vragni not explode? keep succeeding, let nothing trip snorri up or explode in his face. Vragni will just keep chasing and yelling, but that will be all he will do, because he cannot justify doing more.

 

[Always Late]

Bit of a belated input, but:

See Jorri's ingenious plan, as Magna tells it, was to co-opt the numerous individually and Hold run Under-inns and turn them towards a greater purpose. A massive interconnected series of both above and underground inns and waystations that would criss-cross the breadth of the Karaz Ankor.

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individual Dawi would feel and be far safer should they choose to travel down the Underway, needing only to carry coin

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I know what Jorri means by this, but I chose to believe that the end result will be Dawi Fast Food.

And by Thungi as my witness, the milkshake makers will last a thousand years and a day!

 

[BungieONI]

What are we missing other than flamedrinking for the final design at this point? Off the top of my head the only things I can think of are getting rid of the dragonblood if flamedrinking doesn't do it and hooking them up to the waystones/deep magic array to finish off the power side of the issue.

And yeah compression is going to take 3ap total and I don't think we're going to shake free 2ap to do that anytime soon.

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I think you're basically on the money for things we could do to improve the design. Flamedrinking is the fastest at the moment, since we'll have a lead on it next turn due to design work I want Karstah to do.

 

[catDreaming]

Given that the current turn appears nearly completed and I forgot to do this last turn, figured I should write this up. Updated list of Master Runes and Combos that we can either Understand for free or Compress for free!
As a note to future catDreaming for making future versions of this list, higher tier specialties give increased complexity reduction, improved versions of Traits do not.

Weapon:
- Creeping Cold: Complexity 3, Odd Tag
- Raptorstrike: Complexity 2, Odd Tag
Armour:
- Master Rune Of Steel: Complexity 0, [Metal] Tag
Banner:
- Master Rune Of Fear: Complexity 0, Odd Specialty
Talismanic:
- Master Rune Of Challenge: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Master Rune Of Dismay: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Master Rune Of Passage: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Mold The Metal ( Combo ): Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Rouse The Forge ( Combo ): Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
Engineering:
- Master Rune Of Immolation: Complexity 0, Engineering Specialty
Structural:
- Heat The Metal ( Combo ): Complexity 0, [Odd] Tag, [Metal] Tag, [Power] Tag

True Adamant Maker is resting at a cool effective complexity of 1, while Underworld Flame is resting at an effective complexity of 2. Both are doable with some AP, but they do not appear on the list because their effective complexity is not below 0.

Nothing leaps out at me as progressing Extra-Sensory from among the remaining list, I certainly didn't expect Eagle-Eyed to do so, so I am leaning towards Master Rune Of Immolation next turn along with whatever else we do. It's only one tick of progress on Mind For Constructs, but it is still one progress.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

Given that the current turn appears nearly completed and I forgot to do this last turn, figured I should write this up. Updated list of Master Runes and Combos that we can either Understand for free or Compress for free!

Weapon:
- Creeping Cold: Complexity 3, Odd Tag
-- This assumes that Master specialty in Odd and Esoteric Runes and Master Of The Odd each contribute 3 reduction to complexity, if they don't, please let me know so that I can note down how much each of them do contribute for future versions of this post.
Armour:
- Master Rune Of Steel: Complexity 0, [Metal] Tag
Banner:
- Master Rune Of Fear: Complexity 0, Odd Specialty
Talismanic:
- Master Rune Of Challenge: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Master Rune Of Dismay: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Master Rune Of Passage: Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Mold The Metal ( Combo ): Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
- Rouse The Forge ( Combo ): Complexity 0, Talismanic Specialty
Engineering:
- Master Rune Of Immolation: Complexity 0, Engineering Specialty
Structural:
- Heat The Metal ( Combo ): Complexity 0, Odd Specialty, [Metal] Tag, [Power] Tag
- True Adamant Maker ( Combo ): Complexity 7, [Odd] Tag, [Metal] Tag, [Power] Tag
-- This assumes that Master specialty in Odd and Esoteric Runes and Master Of The Odd each contribute 3 reduction to complexity, if they don't, please let me know so that I can note down how much each of them do contribute for future versions of this post.

Creeping Cold and Underworld Flame are at effective complexity 1 and 0 respectively, if I am doing my math correctly, which I thought was worth noting.

Nothing leaps out at me as progressing Extra-Sensory from among the remaining list, I certainly didn't expect Eagle-Eyed to do so, so I am leaning towards Master Rune Of Immolation next turn along with whatever else we do. It's only one tick of progress on Mind For Constructs, but it is still one progress.

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This list is really helpful, thanks for keeping it updated.

So the way the specialties work is they go from normal (ie. the power specialty), to exceptional (alchemy), mastered (Odd), savant (productivity) which give you a -1, 2, 3, 4 to complexity respectively. Traits are just a flat -1 for each one that applies. So odd and esoteric is -3, master of the odd is -1.

The way I look at it is Odd is -4 overall, talisman/engineering category runes get a -2 (one from the specialty, one from the trait), and power and metal tags get a -1. Creeping cold should be a free one. True adamant maker should be effective 1 complexity, underworld flame is effective 2 complexity. Adamant maker will take 2ap to do, underworld flames 3ap but will pop out a second category since odd and talismans will both proc on it giving it 2 overflow. We'll probably do it in a few turns as we gear up to make the true kill attempt.


Edit: I think you're missing MValaya in the talisman section. I'd do that one on the off chance it's magic relatedness procs esp

 

[catDreaming]

This list is really helpful, thanks for keeping it updated.

So the way the specialties work is they go from normal (ie. the power specialty), to exceptional (alchemy), mastered (Odd), savant (productivity) which give you a -1, 2, 3, 4 to complexity respectively. Traits are just a flat -1 for each one that applies. So odd and esoteric is -3, master of the odd is -1.

The way I look at it is Odd is -4 overall, talisman/engineering category runes get a -2 (one from the specialty, one from the trait), and power and metal tags get a -1. Creeping cold should be a free one. True adamant maker should be effective 1 complexity, underworld flame is effective 2 complexity. Adamant maker will take 2ap to do, underworld flames 3ap but will pop out a second category since odd and talismans will both proc on it giving it 2 overflow. We'll probably do it in a few turns as we gear up to make the true kill attempt.


Edit: I think you're missing MValaya in the talisman section. I'd do that one on the off chance it's magic relatedness procs esp

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Thank you for the clarification! I'll edit my list to account for the difference between Specialty's higher versions and improved traits.
Master Rune Of Valaya was Understood on Turn 54, but you are right, it is not noted as such in the Rune List informational post. That's weird.

 

[BungieONI]

Thank you for the clarification! I'll edit my list to account for the difference between Specialty's higher versions and improved traits.
Master Rune Of Valaya was Understood on Turn 54, but you are right, it is not noted as such in the Rune List informational post. That's weird.

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Raptorstrike is also a viable instant compression because the Rune of Breezes is Odd Tagged.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

Thank you for the clarification! I'll edit my list to account for the difference between Specialty's higher versions and improved traits.
Master Rune Of Valaya was Understood on Turn 54, but you are right, it is not noted as such in the Rune List informational post. That's weird.

Click to shrink...

Huh that is odd. @soulcake MVayala is missing the understood tag in the rune info.

In that case I think we should start packing up the chainforger combo for the memes and also cause I want to know what a set combo packed into one rune does.