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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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IllogicalLogic said:
I realize this is sort of the point of your hypothetical/hyperbole but I think you're catastrophying to the point of paralysis I don't believe that talking with Vargni is that risky of an option mostly because both parties involved have a genuine respect for the other, Snorri because Vargni is a full and proper runelord of equal age who sticks to his beliefs and takes action in the pursuit of them; Vargni because of Snorri's achievements and skill even if he despises the way Snorri does things, as others have stated we aren't hoping for a complete cessation of hostilities but rather something limiting the damage caused by one another's actions in the fashion that two reasonably mature 1000+ dwarfs ought to, futher if we can't then it provides a launching point for a proper mediation via the guild itself
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It's not really choice paralyses, there are two choices, to act or not to act. Also I think you may be overestimating the respect on Vragi's end. Just because he thinks we are competent does not exclude him thinking of Snori as a scheming heretic looking to make himself guild master in all but name in the north, skill at making runes says nothing about character.
 
Vragni is in a position very similar to Snorri, where his actions are unquestionable.

Unlike Snorri though, he didn't get a warning from the Valayans, Ankgra and a letter from Thungni.
He hasn't had a brush with death.
and he doesn't have master Yorri to make him think extra hard about thorny problems.

If dwarfs are leaving their homes because of your opinions and actions, you're probably overstepping your mandate.

Does that remind anyone of Zorn?

Yes, yes, it does.

Edit: It would probably be wise to try to get another runelord's opinion on the matter, preferrably one who is conservative. Either Brynna or Ogra would do. Perhaps a future social?
 
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Active mediation with Vragni is a bad use of time unless we have things we're willing to compromise on. Until we, as voters, decide on what we will give up and what we want in exchange we can't realistically convince Vragni to do anything.

Additionally what is happening is a fundamental part of Dawi culture rather then what Vragni or Snorri are doing. While we are willing to go the extra mile to forgive, Dawi as a whole take spite and generosity to extremes. Eventually there would be 4 Runeversity and chances are if the other 2 gets their own super Runelord then we would have 4 Runeversity that caters to viewpoints that aren't similar and whose origin culture would reject their opposite .
 
Evillevi said:
Active mediation with Vragni is a bad use of time unless we have things we're willing to compromise on. Until we, as voters, decide on what we will give up and what we want in exchange we can't realistically convince Vragni to do anything.
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Vragni needs someone to call him out on his escalation of the feud.

Snorri isn't the best person to do it... but we only have control over Snorri's actions.
 
IronFist said:
Vragni needs someone to call him out on his escalation of the feud.

Snorri isn't the best person to do it... but we only have control over Snorri's actions.
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But Vragni didn't escalate beyond what is normal for our culture.

Note that even without Vragni we have 2 other potential Runeversity with likely similar cultural impact/escalation since a lot of wealth and influence is based on Rune Items and Snorri is already one of the most influential Runelords alive right now. Additionally those 2 Runeversities are also much much more conservative.

The problem that's happening is IMO an escalation only in the fact that prior to our Runeversity most dawi had to shut up and take their beating for lack of options. But now with various levels of Runeversities and related Radicalism/Conservatism we have given our Rune wielding cousins options to move out and make a stand on their believes.
 
The problem is gerontocratic conservatism is an inherently fail deadly social system the pico-second two Sufficiently Old gerontocrats decide to be insufferable to each other rather than the young for once.
 
I think it might be worth considering loaning out some of our production to the other brotherhood members until they build a few smelters of their own before we start making use of our Adamant in other projects. Or our apprentices, maybe.

[Also, I think that we should not teach anyone how to make the Greater Dragonblood Smelter unless they know/agree to learn how to make one that does not require Adamant in its construction].

Edit: Hold the phone:
-- Gain Greater Dragonblood Smelter [Produces x6 bars of Adamant/Turn (Already Includes Adamant Bonus)]
--- Requires x10 [T4] Adamant, x1 [T4] Voidstone] to be built.
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[Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance] Runesmiths in a room or structure find their intuition and comprehension when striking Runes temporarily flaring, sometimes forgoing the need to use all but the most powerful and rare (T5) reagents.
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Considering the incredible scarcity of Voidstone, and how the conditions for its creation are beyond rare now that the Vortex has been created, I think that it should be suggested to the Brotherhood of Dorn that they all make their Greater Dragonblood Smelters at Khazagar and transport them home.

No matter how difficult it might be, if it is technically possible to relocate a Smelter, then they should be made at Khazagar.

Even one Runesmith saving one piece of Voidstone would make the effort worthwhile.
 
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Evillevi said:
But Vragni didn't escalate beyond what is normal for our culture.
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"If you don't like it, leave" is within the norms of dwarf culture as reformed by the ancestors, yes.
But when it comes into action, it's normally not a good sign.

Vragni is meant to be nurturing the runesmith community of Ornsmotek, not dictating to it.

Ornsmotek needs a couple of other runelords that are not of Vragni's lineage within his hold.

In fact, I expect that it will happen by the next conclave.
 
IronFist said:
"If you don't like it, leave" is within the norms of dwarf culture as reformed by the ancestors, yes.
But when it comes into action, it's normally not a good sign.

Vragni is meant to be nurturing the runesmith community of Ornsmotek, not dictating to it.

Ornsmotek needs a couple of other runelords that are not of Vragni's lineage within his hold.

In fact, I expect that it will happen by the next conclave.
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Yeah he is meant to, but he is also allowed to tell them to f-off, that is what it means to be within the norms of the culture. Scolding him for it will achieve nothing, at least not from Snori.
 
DragonParadox said:
Both of them are known to be our friends though, to the point where they traded runes with us. Seeing as the crux of the current dispute is trading runes Vragni may well see them as Snorist sympathizers, crypto-Snorist even.
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How Vragni sees the relationship between Snorri and Ogra or Brynna is not relevant though.

Snorri could go to either one of them, talk to them about Vragni running people off with his Vragni-ness, and see what they thing as a Local conservative (Ogra) or an ex-Zornish (Brynna).

It'd be a social action to get a different viewpoint before deciding if we should take the "Talk to Vragni" action.

We can't "send" either of them to mediate with Vragni anyway, and I don't think Snorri would ask, either.
 
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IronFist said:
How Vragni sees the relationship between Snorri and Ogra or Brynna is not relevant though.

Snorri could go to either one of them, talk to them about Vragni running people off with his Vragni-ness, and see what they thing as a Local conservative (Ogra) or an ex-Zornish (Brynna).

It'd be a social action to get a different viewpoint before deciding if we should take the "Talk to Vragni" action.

We can't "send" either of them to mediate with Vragni anyway.
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Ah, so you are not planning to ask them to talk to Vragni? That seems reasonable enough then, the worst they can do is shrug that they don't know either.
 
I said it above, but I still maintain that the way to moderate Vragni's behaviour is, effectively, deterrence. The costs of him escalating matters needs to be high enough that the collateral damage to the Cult/Guild and the blowback on his own faction is high enough that tolerating Snorri seems like the lesser evil.

That means several things, including:

1) Having a pipeline of well trained and talented Snorrist runesmiths who may become runelords The best way to encourage that is to taking more apprentices on when the dragons are adults. We already have the advantage of there being two runelords in our 'faction' compared to Vragni's one.
1a) Sharing more resources and knowledge with our graduated apprentices may help there. The suggestion that we share the adamant and voidstone required for them to make a greater smelter with them in return for them paying it back from the initial production of their smelters would help with this. If our ex-apprentices are all producing adamant masterworks and Vragni's aren't that should raise the prestige of our faction.
2). Building up our standing with wider dwarven society, which our expanding Hearthguard should help with. We should have Standing 10 with Dorden next turn, and can hopefully get the same with Ravnsake in a couple of turns.
3) Building up our standing with other runelords. Our work with the Brotherhood is the best example of this - writing up our Arcane Fulcrum insights for them is the obvious one, although this is probably semi-gated behind learning Aonoquean and getting some elven books on the subject for the best results. The other, longer shot option is Burudin challenges.
4) Demonstrating that Khazagar is a positive good for wider dwarven society and the runesmiths who work there. We may want to spend soe actions sponsoring competitions and similar.
5) Staying visible personally doing great deeds for the dwarves, rather than being a hermit people can project their own prejudices onto. In the near term, this means going out and smiting fimir with a pyroclastic fist.

IronFist said:
Which is why I raised the possibility of trying to talk to Brynna or Ogra, for a second, conservative opinion.
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I think the problem with that is that by Conservative mores, Vragni isn't doing anything wrong by ostracising junior runesmiths whose philosophy deviates from his own. That's the Conservative system working as intended.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Ah, so you are not planning to ask them to talk to Vragni? That seems reasonable enough then, the worst they can do is shrug that they don't know either.
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Nah. Just a second/third opinion.

Then, either have Snorri talk to him (which would probably not be productive), but showing him the "Judgement withheld pending results," note
might get him to ease up on the feud. If the Ancestors were undecided, it's not Vragni's place to decide for them.

If the Feud keeps going without someone bringing the pressure down (and Snorri is the only one with any inclination to even try), I expect it will come up in the next conclave.
 
DragonParadox said:
Both of them are known to be our friends though, to the point where they traded runes with us. Seeing as the crux of the current dispute is trading runes Vragni may well see them as Snorist sympathizers, crypto-Snorist even.
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Didn't Ogra trade with Vragni for really important master runes for his school, one of which she didn't offer to Snorri, though? As much as I don't have the greatest opinion of him, it's been made clear that Vragni isn't so far gone as to lash out at someone politically neutral but personally leaning somewhat to his side that has traded runes with his greatest rival--at the very least he was willing to broker a trade of his own.

She'd be the perfect person to act as a mediator if it weren't for her usual disinterest in anything that wasn't her Ancestor and building runes. I don't think she'd be very happy if Snorri asked her to wade in, but she'd honestly be the best person for it.
 
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Ambit said:
Didn't Ogra trade with Vragni for really important master runes for his school, one of which she didn't offer to Snorri, though? She'd be the perfect person to act as a mediator if it weren't for her usual disinterest in anything that wasn't her Ancestor and building runes.
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Ogra is (imo) the most actually conservative runelord up north (Vragni has his own thing, now), and is on good enough terms with Vragni and Snorri. And she is also the next Oldest, after Snorri, iirc.
 
Alratan said:
I said it above, but I still maintain that the way to moderate Vragni's behaviour is, effectively, deterrence. The costs of him escalating matters needs to be high enough that the collateral damage to the Cult/Guild and the blowback on his own faction is high enough that tolerating Snorri seems like the lesser evil.

That means several things, including:

1) Having a pipeline of well trained and talented Snorrist runesmiths who may become runelords The best way to encourage that is to taking more apprentices on when the dragons are adults. We already have the advantage of there being two runelords in our 'faction' compared to Vragni's one.
1a) Sharing more resources and knowledge with our graduated apprentices may help there. The suggestion that we share the adamant and voidstone required for them to make a greater smelter with them in return for them paying it back from the initial production of their smelters would help with this. If our ex-apprentices are all producing adamant masterworks and Vragni's aren't that should raise the prestige of our faction.
2). Building up our standing with wider dwarven society, which our expanding Hearthguard should help with. We should have Standing 10 with Dorden next turn, and can hopefully get the same with Ravnsake in a couple of turns.
3) Building up our standing with other runelords. Our work with the Brotherhood is the best example of this - writing up our Arcane Fulcrum insights for them is the obvious one, although this is probably semi-gated behind learning Aonoquean and getting some elven books on the subject for the best results. The other, longer shot option is Burudin challenges.
4) Demonstrating that Khazagar is a positive good for wider dwarven society and the runesmiths who work there. We may want to spend soe actions sponsoring competitions and similar.



I think the problem with that is that by Conservative mores, Vragni isn't doing anything wrong by ostracising junior runesmiths whose philosophy deviates from his own. That's the Conservative system working as intended.
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Is Vragni actually ostracising the junior runesmith or is it the society of Ormotesk doing the ostracising?
 
Evillevi said:
Is Vragni actually ostracising the junior runesmith or is it the society of Ormotesk doing the ostracising?
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As the Runelord of Ormotesk, I suspect that the other runesmiths of the hold take their lead from him. He wouldn't need to be so crude as to give orders, people will watch him and follow what they think is his example.
 
Alratan said:
As the Runelord of Ormotesk, I suspect that the other runesmiths of the hold take their lead from him. He wouldn't need to be so crude as to give orders, people will watch him and follow what they think is his example.
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Doesn't help that he was pretty vocal to his students about his dislike of Snorri's methods, so much so that they see their duty as his students/apprentices to be rivals to Snorri's own apprentices.
 
Evillevi said:
Is Vragni actually ostracising the junior runesmith or is it the society of Ormotesk doing the ostracising?
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Vragni is the Snorri of Ornsmotek.

He's extremely influential within that hold, and his likes and dislikes tend to be emulated.
Snorri is careful about it and keeps his opinions to himself, but younger dwarfs still try to emulate his actions as a role model. No matter what information they miss, case in point that poor Snorrist who thought being Snorrist was just making lots of stuff.

Given what we've seen of Vragni (politicking and posing while in a command tent) he's probably nowhere near as circumspect with his opinions. Dwarfs see him disliking Snorri (for valid reasons) and they imitate him, even if they don't know the details. Even worse, he's passing his opinions to his apprentices, (probably intentionally) initiating a (one sided) rivalry between the lineages.

Snorri also has 5 other Runelords living in the hold with him, and they span the spectrum from conservative to radical. Brynna, Bara, Lorna, Dwalin, Snerra, Snorri (In order of least radical to most radical, I think).
Even if Snorri was inclined to deliberately influence Drakk culture, which he isn't, he'd have competition. What passes for a Conservative Runesmith in Drakk has alternative "role models", if Snorri's actions are not to their taste.

Ornsmotek only has Vragni, and a quarter of the hold's runesmiths are of Vragni's lineage. That's ... quite a ridiculous amount of social influence.
 
Alratan said:
As the Runelord of Ormotesk, I suspect that the other runesmiths of the hold take their lead from him. He wouldn't need to be so crude as to give orders, people will watch him and follow what they think is his example.
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I think that the distinction matters in not escalating the feud.

As of now Vragni is not actively pumping resources or time into the feud beyond his personal opinions. Insulting him enough to escalate would be a lot worse.
 
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