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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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...Well then.

This actually perfectly fits my estimates on an AAS.

That's very good, it means I can safely state that if we build 2 more of these beasts, we complete the fancy dragon in 10.6 turns, not accounting for stockpiles.
 
mmgaballah said:
undead do exist without necromancers , like if enough of the wind of death gathers in one area with lots of bodies and some of it curdles into dark magic then the dead will start raising on their own though with no intelligence to guide them they tend to be pretty stupid its why graveyards in the empire are build like mazes
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Yeah, we saw that in the elf books, but you pretty much have to be under a storm of magic to get anything meaningful and without the systematic, organized nature of Nagash and the vampire bloodlines it is never going to be more than a minor hazard. It is intelligent and organized undead that are the problem, not a bunch of moaning zombies that only happened because some tomb got bathed in Dhar.
 
Rockeye said:
Anvils of Doom seem to be a much later invention, created when the Dwarves are beset on all sides by foes and the greatest remaining runelords turn their arts only to war.

I don't actually know the source material super well but I think they are a much later thing, I'm saying.

They might also be part of Games Workshop's tendency to give all the major factions Cool Superweapons That Are Irreplacable If Lost.
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They can't be that much later. The Anvils of Doom were invented by Kurgaz, said to be the greatest Runelord to have ever lived, who was taught the art of Runesmithing directly by the Ancestors themselves. At the time of the War of Vengeance, each major Hold had six Anvils.
 
Lokimotion said:
They can't be that much later. The Anvils of Doom were invented by Kurgaz, said to be the greatest Runelord to have ever lived, who was taught the art of Runesmithing directly by the Ancestors themselves. At the time of the War of Vengeance, each major Hold had six Anvils.
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Unfortunately, that's probably not canon for this quest because Kurgaz quite possibly hasn't even been born yet according to Soul.

soulcake said:
Canonically, at least for this quest, it was during the Highpoint of the Golden Age. Kurgaz making the Anvils or their concept at least.

BUT.

Canon has been fucked up enough by RER and maybe your own actions that Kurgaz Inventing them is in a state of flux. Like Kurgaz being born was already cloudy and could be butterflied away, but now even if he is the path he would've gone down may have already been taken by the time he's an adult/master.
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Soul also explains when the Anvils get made in canon, which is the high point of the Golden Age. We've only just entered the Golden Age as of turn 50 and stuff is cloudy and weird due to random event rolls/RER.
 
DragonParadox said:
Undead do not really become a thing until Nagash who may or may not arise and go on his canon rise to power. I mean for one thing if we start interacting with Nehekara to any considerable degree we could butterfly his birth, nevermind all the very specific things he had to do to become the Great Betrayer and First Necromancer.
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Undead seem to exist independently of Necromancers, sometimes.
At least if there's Warpstone around or Morrslieb is full we know that the dead can wake up without intentional dark magic being used.

It's just a very minor problem without a guiding intelligence.

Also, unrelated to Nagash, that one ancient enchanter from those mountains in Reikland, Drachenfels I believe, seems to have been around and using undead without being derived from his works, for at least as long as Nagash, maybe earlier.
He just never taught his tricks and so didn't let loose Necromancy on the world in general.
 
Alratan said:
Compressing Underworld Flame would no doubt produce an interesting result. An obvious one to convert into a weapon master rune.
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Unfortunately at complexity 7 or higher, its going to be a long time until we understand and convert this one. Or rather until we can do so cheaply.
BungieONI said:
*sigh*

No, this has been gone over. Normal people can use the effect of Expurgation and Expurgation can be used independent of the combo, we've just given it new extra functionality.
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You seem to be responding to something that nobody said? Or are you misreading the final sentence? Yes normal people can use casting runes, however we know that Runesmiths are able to get better power and such from it.
soulcake said:
Attention, just a minor update. there was some discussion about the effect of Underworld Flame that I ended up agreeing with.

In essence the effect seemed weird because it felt like a Banner Rune when everything was a Talismanic Rune. I agreed with this main point, and after a bit of quibbling I decided to edit the effect thusly.

Just made it a targeted ability with a duration, rather than a constant Aura.

#Runes #Mechanics
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Thats cool. Thanks two things I noticed here.
While converting expurgation into a defensive barrier is very cool, I'm surprised that it absorbs a set amount of magic rather than the duration of the effect being extended by consuming magic. I guess the cost of the breaking down magic is more than it can reabsorb?
And also the new description has dropped its references to being extra effective against undead and (slightly) more effective against daemons. Was this deliberate?
 
Dark as Silver said:
Unfortunately at complexity 7 or higher, its going to be a long time until we understand and convert this one. Or rather until we can do so cheaply.
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Underworld Flame is on a talisman, and is odd, which makes it a lot easier. We have the modifiers:

Specialties: Mastered Odd -3, Talismans -1
Traits: Master of the Odd -1, Talent for Talismans -1

For a total of -6.

At Complexity 7 that's a base of three actions, at Complexity 8 that's a base of five.

That's not cheap, although with two traits triggering two actions spent produce four progress.

A shame Expurgation isn't a Power rune.
 
In other words, its still behind all the free stuff we can do and would require at least two trait upgrades to enter into that list.
Well hopefully Expurgation and something else can counts as a related rune since if we can get 1 that way we'll only need 1 trait upgrade.
 
Dark as Silver said:
In other words, its still behind all the free stuff we can do and would require at least two trait upgrades to enter into that list.
Well hopefully Expurgation and something else can counts as a related rune since if we can get 1 that way we'll only need 1 trait upgrade.
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Sadly, the related rune discount only seems to apply to understanding a master rune, not compressing a combo.

And also, unfortunately, although this may be a terminology issue, upgrading a Trait doesn't help with the effective complexity. Only upgrading a specialty (or getting a new relevant Specialty or Trait) does.

We'd need to upgrade the speciality in Odd runes to Savant or Talismans to Exceptional.

Those aren't things we can just grind out and wait to happen.

Profilozof said:
This sounds like something most dwarfs would not like as much. There is a diffrence between having an ability to work on runes with sending your friends to potencial death or spending a ton of gold one doesn't have and getting free progress.
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I think it depends on what the IC mechanism that grants extra progress feels like.
 
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Alratan said:
And also, unfortunately, although this may be a terminology issue,
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nah its a "me forgetting how the system works" issue. Since until power basically every speciality had an associated trait, I just equated them in my head and assumed that upgrading the trait was directly linked to upgrading the speciality.
One of those things where if you asked me to think things through I'd catch my mistake probably but I wouldn't normally.
 
Profilozof said:
This sounds like something most dwarfs would not like as much. There is a diffrence between having an ability to work on runes with sending your friends to potencial death or spending a ton of gold one doesn't have and getting free progress.
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Alratan said:
I think it depends on what the IC mechanism that grants extra progress feels like.
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Yeah, "free progress" is just the mechanical effect, in-universe it's probably a buff that allows the runesmiths to work faster without that negatively impacting the quality of their work, or helps them ignore the need for rest/sustenance, or something along those lines.
 
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Ptolemy03 said:
Looks like Thungni's Brilliance might hold the answer to carving runes without reagents. Or at least part of the answer
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We already know the answer. It's "Git Gud"
soulcake said:
A theoretical "Perfect/Ideal Runelord" who understands everything and has the precision of a god could make every Rune with nothing but a chisel and hammer but it's such an absolute outlier that it's effectively impossible. Sorta like a theoretical phenomenon in physics being proofed in math but there's no practical example in reality?
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I wonder if there could be any potential for a runesmith who benefits from Thungni's Brilliqjfe to learn something from the experience.

The rune seems to temporarily grant them the insight to cast a rune without using a reagent. Presumably that insight is fleeting, but I wonder if they're more likely to be inspired by having had it or to remember something of it, getting a better intuition about that rune or one's using similar reagents. The kind of thing that helps develop a specialism or trait.

Thinking some more about that rune, I wonder whether it can be used to try to substitute for reagents a runesmith doesn't have on hand. It's risky, as it may fail, but for rare reagents it may be worth a try.
 
Alratan said:
I wonder if there could be any potential for a runesmith who benefits from Thungni's Brilliqjfe to learn something from the experience.

The rune seems to temporarily grant them the insight to cast a rune without using a reagent. Presumably that insight is fleeting, but I wonder if they're more likely to be inspired by having had it or to remember something of it, getting a better intuition about that rune or one's using similar reagents. The kind of thing that helps develop a specialism or trait.

Thinking some more about that rune, I wonder whether it can be used to try to substitute for reagents a runesmith doesn't have on hand. It's risky, as it may fail, but for rare reagents it may be worth a try.
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Seems like this is something thats falling into the realms of the stories narrative rather than any mechanics.
While there is a mechanical result of being so good, there isn't really a mechanical skill that leads to it. Presumably it exists as a function of age + talent + specialities + many other things but theres no actual way for us to track if we're permanently getting benefits unless we get a trait or trait upgrade that says "No longer require reagents for MRunes of ____ complexity"

As for it being able to be a substitute for an item we don't have... its only a 20% of procing.
If we assume that it is allowed, then: Assuming that we spent all our actions on a single item and each action represented a separate proc chance, we'd still have a 32% chance of all of them failing (0.8^5 if my maths is right) and being unable to complete the item, just wasting a decade staring at an anvil. Hard to imagine a scenario where not only that anyone would be willing to risk that, but also that they'd be in such an expensive and well supplied workshop that it can have a lonely rune inscribed on it.
 
Dark as Silver said:
As for it being able to be a substitute for an item we don't have... its only a 20% of procing.
If we assume that it is allowed, then: Assuming that we spent all our actions on a single item and each action represented a separate proc chance, we'd still have a 32% chance of all of them failing (0.8^5 if my maths is right) and being unable to complete the item, just wasting a decade staring at an anvil. Hard to imagine a scenario where not only that anyone would be willing to risk that, but also that they'd be in such an expensive and well supplied workshop that it can have a lonely rune inscribed on it.
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While normally it would be a be a very unusual rune for a runesmith to have access to, I think Khazagar is an exception. I think every runesmith who forges a rune there is under its influence.

And most runes don't make a decade to make. Even regular runes can be upgraded by using superior reagents, and a less wealthy runesmith trying to push themself might be willing to risk an 80% failure rate to produce superior products by duplicating an unavoidable T4 ingredient.

This doesn't usually apply to Snorri, who is wealthy even by the standards of Runelords, but for the journeymen apprentices learning at Khazagar, the ability to experiment with how unavoidable or even theoretical reagents interact with runes could be very useful to help them develop.

Even for Snorri, consider how he was originally stymied in developing the Master Rune of Purification because he couldn't identify a suitable reagent. Even a 20% chance of being granted the ability to not need a reagent at all might well allow bypassing such a bottleneck.

Something I meant to reply to before:

ArchAIngel said:
...Well then.

This actually perfectly fits my estimates on an AAS.

That's very good, it means I can safely state that if we build 2 more of these beasts, we complete the fancy dragon in 10.6 turns, not accounting for stockpiles.
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Might (or might not) be more efficient to compress the True Adamant Maker Combo first, as it would take two of Snorri's actions to do so, given the cost of the current Greater Dragonblood Smelter.
 
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