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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I felt like throwing together a list of Talismanic Master Runes that we can understand for free.
- Challenge ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Dismay ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Passage ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Valaya ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )

Even though we're running ( arguably ) a bit low on free to Understand Master Runes, it's worth noting that the compressed Guardian's Rebuke ( if we didn't automatically understand it by virtue of compressing it ourselves ), would only take 1 AP to Understand due to it being Complexity 1.
 
I felt like throwing together a list of Talismanic Master Runes that we can understand for free.
- Challenge ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Dismay ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Passage ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )
- Valaya ( Complexity 0, Base Talismanic Specialty )

Even though we're running ( arguably ) a bit low on free to Understand Master Runes, it's worth noting that the compressed Guardian's Rebuke ( if we didn't automatically understand it by virtue of compressing it ourselves ), would only take 1 AP to Understand due to it being Complexity 1.
Compressing does automatically understand the new MRune and rolls for research progress. Hmm, I think challenge might give us diction direction progress, potentially the same with dismay. Passage no clue, Valaya something related to magic resistance, maybe monoliths if it's like runic amp.
 
Compressing does automatically understand the new MRune and rolls for research progress. Hmm, I think challenge might give us diction direction progress, potentially the same with dismay. Passage no clue, Valaya something related to magic resistance, maybe monoliths if it's like runic amp.
Give that both Challenge and Dismay deal with mental stuff, I can see a world where they give drip towards The Mind Of Things somehow. Master Rune Of Valaya may give more drip towards The Happening Of Things, seeing as how ( Stabilization? Amplification? ) did as well, despite the lack of apparent connection between anti-magic and fate stuff.
 
Give that both Challenge and Dismay deal with mental stuff, I can see a world where they give drip towards The Mind Of Things somehow. Master Rune Of Valaya may give more drip towards The Happening Of Things, seeing as how ( Stabilization? Amplification? ) did as well, despite the lack of apparent connection between anti-magic and fate stuff.
That's a good point, stabilization which is a magic resistance rune progressed happening of things somehow. MValaya also being antimagic could very well do the same. A few more runes like that and we might actually research it one day lol
 
In terms of research that can be conceivably cleaned up in a single turn without investing all 5 AP, there are actually a couple of things we could clean up.
Mysterious Mystery Sword gets procs from both Master Of The Odd and Soul Of The Earth, meaning that it's seemingly daunting 7 progress remaining is actually handled by 3 AP, and with the potential for overflow from there ( 0~3, average of 1.2 ). That also allows for potential progress on the Cauldron and Horn+Barrel.
Mysterious Mystery Cauldron gets procs from both Master Of The Odd and Soul Of The Earth. This means that it's 6 progress remaining has a 16% chance of completion on 2 AP, or anywhere from 1~4 Overflow ( average 2.2 ) on 3 AP. Also gives progress to the Horn+Barrel on completion, and possibly the Sword as well.
Diction Direction and The Secrets Of Light both sit at 3 progress remaining, where 2 AP on either one wraps up the current stage of it's research chain.

Basically, this means that 3 AP on the Mysterious Mystery Sword potentially accelerates the Cauldron to where 2 AP can finish it, then the Cauldron finishing on 2 AP could accelerate the Horn+Barrel into 3 AP completion range if not even further. Or, what we get from the Sword could potential help with the Challenge Of The Burudin that involves cutting through Adamant. The Sword itself does cut through gromril with an unnerving degree of ease, or so it's description says.
 
In terms of research that can be conceivably cleaned up in a single turn without investing all 5 AP, there are actually a couple of things we could clean up.
Mysterious Mystery Sword gets procs from both Master Of The Odd and Soul Of The Earth, meaning that it's seemingly daunting 7 progress remaining is actually handled by 3 AP, and with the potential for overflow from there ( 0~3, average of 1.2 ). That also allows for potential progress on the Cauldron and Horn+Barrel.
Mysterious Mystery Cauldron gets procs from both Master Of The Odd and Soul Of The Earth. This means that it's 6 progress remaining has a 16% chance of completion on 2 AP, or anywhere from 1~4 Overflow ( average 2.2 ) on 3 AP. Also gives progress to the Horn+Barrel on completion, and possibly the Sword as well.
Diction Direction and The Secrets Of Light both sit at 3 progress remaining, where 2 AP on either one wraps up the current stage of it's research chain.

Basically, this means that 3 AP on the Mysterious Mystery Sword potentially accelerates the Cauldron to where 2 AP can finish it, then the Cauldron finishing on 2 AP could accelerate the Horn+Barrel into 3 AP completion range if not even further. Or, what we get from the Sword could potential help with the Challenge Of The Burudin that involves cutting through Adamant. The Sword itself does cut through gromril with an unnerving degree of ease, or so it's description says.
The best way to go about it I think, in terms of getting the most projects done and getting the most overflow for the least ap, would be to do Cauldron first with 3 ap. The drip and overflow would likely entirely finish Horn + Barrel.
 
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The best way to go about it I think in terms of getting the most projects done and getting the most overflow would be to do Cauldron first with 3 ap. The drip and overflow would likely entirely finish Horn + Barrel.
Does it really seem likely that 1~4 Overflow, average 2.2, would complete an 8 progress remaining project on it's own? I will admit to some doubt that we can convert 1~4 overflow into 8 AP worth of progress quite that easily. Though getting it down to 5 Progress would bring it into the 3 AP range for completion.
 
Does it really seem likely that 1~4 Overflow, average 2.2, would complete an 8 progress remaining project on it's own? I will admit to some doubt that we can convert 1~4 overflow into 8 AP worth of progress quite that easily. Though getting it down to 5 Progress would bring it into the 3 AP range for completion.
Note that I said drip and overflow. I think there's two sources of progress for the Horn + Barrel.
 
Note that I said drip and overflow. I think there's two sources of progress for the Horn + Barrel.
I'm still a bit doubtful that Drip and Overflow combined would finish the entire job, but I guess it is possible? It would definitely move the Horn + Barrel significantly closer to completion, that's for sure. Cauldron or Sword for 3 AP is just a good use of resources in general though, getting the potential procs from Soul Of The Earth while advancing both it and Master Of The Odd. I don't think either one on their own would be sufficient to upgrade Master Of The Odd, but I think doing both could very well be sufficient.
 
So I see the point you are trying to make, however, one of the assumptions you are using has a clear counter argument. Its 1) part of a Combo so the other two runes can act to enhance the weapon, and 2) Rangerstrike doesn't say it leaves you weaker than normal after that first strike. There is no stated 'period of weakness' like we get from something like Empowerment.



Article:
When activated, Gronti and Prosthetics inscribed with this Rune or within range of the bearer will see improved performance for a moderate period of time, they become slightly sluggish for half the time afterwards.


Let me explain 2) in greater detail. Laying out some basics for everyone else: Equipment in this system gives a bonus to combat stats, and the default damage on a victorious combat round is 1 Wound for any weapon or attack. I am comparing the text between Empowerment and Rangerstrike to form the basis of this interpretation. As well as the observation that 'slightly sluggish' describes a small penalty, and going from 1 Wound to 0.5 Wounds is impossible and going from 1 Wound to 0 Wounds on a victorious round is not a small penalty, so Empowerment's 'slightly sluggish' is most easily represented as a penalty to combat bonus which can vary from +5 to +25 (or possibly higher) and thus has more room for small penalties.

Because Rangerstrike talks about damage and does not mention weakness or sluggishness, plus the knowledge of the default damage and how Empowerment most logically works, it makes the most sense to me that Rangerstrike works by giving you a standard combat bonus and first strike Multi-Wound. Then once its used, the combat bonus remains the same, and damage plummets to 1 Wound per round. Thus my observation that it should be at least equal to any other non-first turn effect without Multi-Wound.

Rangerstrike would essentially have to also impact the combat stat bonus of the item it is inscribed upon and this penalty would have to be severe enough to shift your average win rate (and thus average damage) to the point it goes significantly below the average damage of an item with a non-first turn effect without Multi-Wound.
Not weaker compared to an unruned item, weaker compared to a combo that is active.
I am assuming that the two remaining functional runes while Rangerstrike (and the combo) reactivate, do not provide a measureable benefit at the level I abstracted to, hence it falls to or near to the effect of an 'unruned' item.
If you want to use 1 wound per round as the baseline, I can redo that maths, I can change my terminology the equation doesn't really change
LaTeX:
\[ nC = R_{a} +(n-1)R_{u} \]
Balance this to make them mechanically equal. In terms of damage over the same period.
Where n is the number of rounds in the fight, C is the expected damage of a always online combo, Ra​ is the expected damage of the Rangerstrike combo on the first turn, and Ru​ is the expected damage of the Rangerstrike item when it is unactivated.
 
Not weaker compared to an unruned item, weaker compared to a combo that is active.
I am assuming that the two remaining functional runes while Rangerstrike (and the combo) reactivate, do not provide a measureable benefit at the level I abstracted to, hence it falls to or near to the effect of an 'unruned' item.
If you want to use 1 wound per round as the baseline, I can redo that maths, I can change my terminology the equation doesn't really change
LaTeX:
\[ nC = R_{a} +(n-1)R_{u} \]
Balance this to make them mechanically equal. In terms of damage over the same period.
Where n is the number of rounds in the fight, C is the expected damage of a always online combo, Ra​ is the expected damage of the Rangerstrike combo on the first turn, and Ru​ is the expected damage of the Rangerstrike item when it is unactivated.
I'm not talking about unruned items, so I don't know why you start off the way you do. I am also talking about weaker compared to a combo that is active.

You've failed to actually engage with what I'm saying in the post you have quoted, and have stayed at your original point even though it has been challenged. I don't know why you have done this. It rapidly reduces the value in this conversation, but I'm going to keep trying for a little bit longer.

First, the assumption that the two remaining functional runes do not provide a measurable benefit at the level you abstracted to is wrong.
"Falling to or near to the effect of an unruned item" is equivalent to saying that item with Rangerstrike goes from a combat bonus of +X to +0 combat bonus, in the system we use. Runes do exactly what they say, therefore if Rangerstrike does not use the language that indicates that it impacts combat bonus then it does not impact combat bonus. What is the language that indicates an impact on combat bonus? The language Empowerment uses, because to represent Empowerment's penalty as a reduction in Wounds inflicted does not fit with the language used, and the only other thing it can impact is Combat Bonus.

Lets do this math. I am now treating the above as evidence that Rangerstrike should not enter an inactive/unactivated state.

10 Rounds. 10 Wounds from an always online combo across that time. 2 Wounds from Rangerstrike on the first round. 1 Wound of damage from Rangerstrike on off rounds.

10 Rounds * 1 Wound = 10 Wounds.

2 Wounds + (10-1)*1 Wound = 2+ 9 Wounds = 11 Wounds.

Under my evidence using your equation Rangerstrike is always superior by at least 1 wound. Your point only works when Ru goes fractional, and that only happens when the Combat Bonus drops - which as established, cannot happen.
 
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Now @UlseDovThur has raised an excellent point on discord that the recharge criteria of Rangerstrike might be specifically about re-establishing stealth/an unexpected attack, in which case it is pretty pointless on the 135 foot long and over 10 metric ton flying very shiny metal godzilla.
If that was the intention, wouldn't the first strike having the boost without any Ifs really clash with the theme of the Combo? Everything after the comma would also be unnecessarily long if it just translated to from stealth. To me that sounds much more like an attempt to set up rules for where one fight ends and the next one with it's own first strike starts.
"The first strike from this weapon will deal far more damage, needing to be moved an appreciable distance or a long period of time between the next shot to reactivate the ffect
A ranger's greatest deeds are oft never seen. Entire battles won by a single bolt fired from somewhere no one expected, a well-timed avalanche, one crushing strike from beyond their perception."
I
would also like to point out that avalanches get explicitly mentioned in the flavour text, which seem quite comparable to the Dragon in terms of subtlety. This isn't the Rune/Combo of Videogame-Stealth-Takedowns. It's themed around preparing an opening move so overwhelming that you are in trouble if it doesn't immediately end the fight.
 
If that was the intention, wouldn't the first strike having the boost without any Ifs really clash with the theme of the Combo? Everything after the comma would also be unnecessarily long if it just translated to from stealth. To me that sounds much more like an attempt to set up rules for where one fight ends and the next one with it's own first strike starts.
"The first strike from this weapon will deal far more damage, needing to be moved an appreciable distance or a long period of time between the next shot to reactivate the ffect
A ranger's greatest deeds are oft never seen. Entire battles won by a single bolt fired from somewhere no one expected, a well-timed avalanche, one crushing strike from beyond their perception."
I
would also like to point out that avalanches get explicitly mentioned in the flavour text, which seem quite comparable to the Dragon in terms of subtlety. This isn't the Rune/Combo of Videogame-Stealth-Takedowns. It's themed around preparing an opening move so overwhelming that you are in trouble if it doesn't immediately end the fight.
That would also work, I think. Interestingly the two ideas aren't fully mutually exclusive - based on the writing it could work on an attack from stealth and the first strike in a whole new fight.
 
@CeBrudras this isn't directly about Rangerstrike, though it is still related to the dragon and its sheer mass in combat. You were questioning why we would stick a gun on it. Lets assume for this discussion that its sheer mass and melee equipment lets it have the Multi-Wound rule, that KKV nature you're talking about. We know that damage can stack under specific circumstances.

Snorri does 1 Wound baseline, if Mhorni's special rule procs he does 2 Wounds. This is effectively Multi-Wound 2 every odd round based on a proc chance. Additionally Skarren's DoT adds another Wound on every odd round. Based on these I'd say that damage or damage enhancements from special rules can stack.

The use of sticking a gun onto it is that if the gun is powerful enough, the gun can have Multi-Wound as well, which then stacks with the Multi-Wound from its KKV nature. In the specific example of Zon-Dum there is nothing stopping it from pouncing on an enemy Lord, killing him as it lands on him, then leaping to assault the Bloodthirster he had as a bound slave and attacking it with its claws and a blast of Zon-Dum at the same time and thus inflicting two different instances of Multi-Wound.

As you were discussing, this is agnostic of the actual runes on its melee equipment.
 
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I'm not talking about unruned items, so I don't know why you start off the way you do.
I don't understand why you brought up period of weaknesses so I thought that was the misunderstanding.
Under my evidence using your equation Rangerstrike is always superior by at least 1 wound. Your point only works when Ru goes fractional, and that only happens when the Combat Bonus drops - which as established, cannot happen.
So wait, using this equation, why is C =1 ? Do you think your MCurrents combo will do equivalent wounds per turn to the Ranger strike combo on turns when Rangerstrike is unactivated? I would have set C as 1.5 or 1.25. In this case over 10 rounds I'd see MRangerstrike lose by between 4 and 1.5 wounds.
Because I'm not comparing Rangerstrike combo to nothing, I'm comparing it to a combo that is always active.
If 1 is the base we're expecting out of the dragon, then surely we should expect the dragon to perform better than that when it has any weapon. Maybe except for breaking or something where the benefit of the combo is the utility rather than the wounds.
 
I don't understand why you brought up period of weaknesses so I thought that was the misunderstanding.

So wait, using this equation, why is C =1 ? Do you think your MCurrents combo will do equivalent wounds per turn to the Ranger strike combo on turns when Rangerstrike is unactivated? I would have set C as 1.5 or 1.25. In this case over 10 rounds I'd see MRangerstrike lose by between 4 and 1.5 wounds.
Because I'm not comparing Rangerstrike combo to nothing, I'm comparing it to a combo that is always active.
If 1 is the base we're expecting out of the dragon, then surely we should expect the dragon to perform better than that when it has any weapon. Maybe except for breaking or something where the benefit of the combo is the utility rather than the wounds.
I know you are not comparing Rangerstrike combo to nothing. I have even said that I know you're not in the post you are quoting from.

Why is C = 1? An always active combo with no special rules does 1 Wound when you win the round, and it does 0 Wounds when you lose the round. This is a known fact of how our system works. In that calculation I did I am assuming for the sake of ease of calculation that we are winning every round. So yes, I was saying that the Currents combo will do equivalent wounds per turn to the Rangerstrike combo on turns when Rangerstrike is deactivated/not getting its first strike bonus.

Here's an example to address your thought of the dragon performing better with any weapon.

Lets say we have the dragon and it has no weapon runes. Its attacks will be based on its combat bonus and do 1 Wound on a victorious round. If it has a Currents combo for its weapon runes it will have a higher combat bonus and do 1 Wound on a victorious round. The dragon does perform better with a Currents combo, but that is because it has a higher combat bonus and is more likely to win a round - rather than doing more damage when it wins.

Currents cannot have C = 1.5 or 1.25. In order to get C > 1 you have to have Multi-Wound or some other way of adding Wounds during a round like Skarren's Damage over Time. Put another way, if you win two rounds and do 3 Wounds over that time you'd get C = 1.5 - but the only way to do 3 Wounds is by using special rules that change how much damage you do.

Also, do you understand what I mean when I say Combat Bonus?
 
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Before I stat that out I have to explain some things.

Combat Bonus is a stat in the combat system. It and Wounds form the core of the system. In the combat system you roll four d50s and add your combat bonus to each d50.

If you have a combat bonus of +25 it looks like this:

You -> 1d50+25, 1d50+25, 1d50+25, 1d50+25.

Lets say your enemy has +30 combat bonus.

The Enemy -> 1d50+30, 1d50+30, 1d50+30, 1d50+30.


A combat round works by you and your enemy rolling your d50s + combat bonus and comparing results.

Example Round 1

You -> 30+25, 33+25, 12+25, 40+25. Your results for the round are a 55, 58, 37, 65.

The Enemy -> 4+30, 5+30, 10+30, 20+30. The enemy's results for the round are a 34, 35, 40, 50.

You then compare these results in a specific order. Your first result is compared to the first result of your enemy, so 55 is compared to 34 here. That's a Win.

Your 58 is compared to the Enemy's 35, another Win for you. Your 37 is compared to the Enemy's 40, a Loss. Then your 65 is compared to the enemy's 50, another Win.

Because you collected three Wins, you Win the entire round as a whole, and then inflict 1 Wound.



[Structural, Lonely] Master Rune of Valaya's Purifying Radiance: Structures inscribed with this Master Rune must depict an image/statue of Valaya, and sanctified by a High Priestess of Valaya (first part mandatory; second part tradition). Allied defenders under the effects of this Lonely Rune are Unbreakable, Tireless, and gain Regeneration. Cleanses allies afflicted by enemy magic, such as Nurgle's Rot, every 2 turns, as their bodies grow feverish from having malicious magic purged by runic power. Invaders, especially magical entities, spellcasters, and Chaos-aligned beings, suffer debuffs within the vicinity of the structure, their very essence seared and burned. In addition, their magics and empowerment effects will be negated every 2 turns, the magics within unmade and converted into heat and light that sears the afflicted enemies inside out.
This is a pretty complex Rune. I will break it down by creating an example bastion and fighting force making use of it.

First, I must state that combat bonus comes from a item or structure's quality tier and not from the runes alone. Tier 3 is +5, Tier 4 provides +10, Tier 5s provide +20 as a baseline, last I recall. This is modified by Sets, but I don't want to get into that right now, it'd distract from the current discussion.

Mingol a Valdok (Bastion of Valaya's Eye) is a Tier 4 structure, inscribed with Valaya's Purifying Radiance. As an absolute baseline it thus provides +10 to any defenders within it or the rune's area of effect. The defenders also have their own stats.

Defenders Combat Bonus: +10 (Base Dwarf Warrior Skill bonus) + 5 (Runed Equipment) + 10 (Mingol a Valdok) + 10 (Grudge against attacking Beastmen) = +35, Tireless, Unbreakable, Regeneration.

Defenders are Tireless. They are immune to penalties from fatigue and can fight forever.
Defenders are Unbreakable. They are immune to penalties from Fear or Terror, and cannot be made to flee because of Fear or Terror.
They regenerate 1 Wound every three rounds (e.g heal 1 Wound on Round 3, Round 6, Round 9 etc).
Every two rounds (e.g Round 2, Round 4, Round 6 etc), remove any penalties caused by magical debuffs inflicted onto the Defenders.
Enemies suffer a -10 penalty to their combat bonus while in the vicinity of the structure. Magical and Chaos-aligned entities suffer a -15 penalty.
Every two rounds Enemies with magical buffs active lose those buffs and take 1 Wound.

This is an extremely powerful rune that very much evens the playing field for the defenders. The nastiest special rule there is the canceling enemy buffs and forcing them to take damage.
 
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@CeBrudras this isn't directly about Rangerstrike, though it is still related to the dragon and its sheer mass in combat. You were questioning why we would stick a gun on it. Lets assume for this discussion that its sheer mass and melee equipment lets it have the Multi-Wound rule, that KKV nature you're talking about. We know that damage can stack under specific circumstances.

Snorri does 1 Wound baseline, if Mhorni's special rule procs he does 2 Wounds. This is effectively Multi-Wound 2 every odd round based on a proc chance. Additionally Skarren's DoT adds another Wound on every odd round. Based on these I'd say that damage or damage enhancements from special rules can stack.

The use of sticking a gun onto it is that if the gun is powerful enough, the gun can have Multi-Wound as well, which then stacks with the Multi-Wound from its KKV nature. In the specific example of Zon-Dum there is nothing stopping it from pouncing on an enemy Lord, killing him as it lands on him, then leaping to assault the Bloodthirster he had as a bound slave and attacking it with its claws and a blast of Zon-Dum at the same time and thus inflicting two different instances of Multi-Wound.

As you were discussing, this is agnostic of the actual runes on its melee equipment.
Mechanics stuff is where my interest immediately drops, so I will just admit defeat for most of this:V
But I feel like this kinda disrespects Zon-Dum in a way. This line of thought would make sense with something turret-like, but everything narratively know about Zon-Dum makes it sounds like the kind of thing that would be a cinematic ultimate attack in other mediums. It's a Rune that has been refined for raw destructive power while sacrificing everything else until the process was stopped by materials bearing it being unable to accept any other rune.
Even if giving everything a sidearm is, like, action-economy optimal, trying to create one that simultaneously has that rare Multi-Wound stuff and can be casually fired while the Dragon is engaged in regular physical badassery feels overly ambitious.

In your example Mhorni and the Storm are even explicitly things that require no conscious attention by Snorri. It would make sense to me if that mattered a lot in this regard.
 
I just don't get the urge to try to push the Dragon even further.

The plan has one of the most destructive runes, juiced up by adamant and a special deep magic, and anvil charges if we can get them.

The Flex level has long since plateau'd.
 
#Rune-Ideas

First time, please be gentle.

[Talisman, Cast] Master Rune of Shattering Gravity:
A variant and improvement to the Rune of Gravity. This rune creates immense gravity inside the target for a very short amount of time, rendering them temporarily immobile and crushing them from within. As this effect is centered inside the target, armor is not an effective way to defend against it.

Edit:
[Talisman, Cast] Rune of Distant Gravity:
A variant of the Rune of Gravity. Instead of the induced gravity being focused on the item the rune is placed on, the caster chooses a location within a short range where the gravity is focused.

Edit 2:
[Weapon, On Hit, Stacking] Master Rune of Crushing Depths:
A variant and improvement to the Rune of Gravity, meant to emulate the crushing pressure of the deep ocean. Each hit increases the pressure applied on the target until they are rendered immobile and crushed. The pressure is applied from above. Movement while under this effect is sluggish, like wading through water.
 
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