RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Dark as Silver]

Are we trying to get to 1 Progress left with 1 turn to go before completion?
I still don't get missing out on free progress, the only saving we are making is the 3 kraka drakk progress a turn.
If we are spending additional AP and Snorri is on Drakk Rearing then we should switch him to A Wonderful Endeavour

Click to shrink...

Yes. We are trying to get excess overflow on it.
There are two ways we can overflow here, first we complete before its ready then continue investing actions until the turn rolls around and it finally finishes. Second we get it 1 action left to complete and on the turn it is able to complete we invest a full Snorri turn. This would give less max possible overflow but is way way more Action efficient which is our main limitation on every kind of thing we can do.
If we spent Snorri actions here, we'd either have to reduce favour spending on future turns, which isn't very valuable, so that we end up at 1 action left anyway, or we would have to throw out all our other plans and research work to start dumping as many actions as possible into Khazagar.

I don't like how expurgation has only one point spent on Drakk rearing. I don't want to fall behind on that.

Click to shrink...

We have no idea how much is a correct amount to spend. 1 point a turn was generally agreed by everyone to be a safe ball park earlier. Its the same amount of attention we gave our apprentices.
Whats your evidence or reason to think its too little?

 

[steampvnc1880]

One point is bare minimum effort. I think putting bare minimum effort into socializing dragons is a Bad Idea.

Generally agreed by everyone who?

 

[Naatra]

[X] Plan Varried Drakk Rearing
[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Prince Malekith of Nagarythe [Limited]
[X] [Social:] Skarri Dolgisson
[X] [Social:] Menlinwen

 

[Andmeuths]

One point is bare minimum effort. I think putting bare minimum effort into socializing dragons is a Bad Idea.

Click to shrink...

While I am sympathetic to the argument that we should spend one retainer action on raising Drakks ontop of one Snorri action to get them use to working with other Dawis, @Derpmind's plan has not indicated that it will accept the Coronation Gift, which is why I am not voting for it. My hope is actually that Kartash trait Gift Giver trait upgrades, and we can divert one retainer action in Turn 51 to the Drakk.

In any case, the case for compressing Expurgation is strong given that there's a brewing Warp Rift the Firmir are making that forms a strong case for us going to war soonish, and an Expurgation Tailsman (nevermind an Expurgation weapon) will be extremely useful once we fight Tzeenchains.

 

[Dark as Silver]

One point is bare minimum effort. I think putting bare minimum effort into socializing dragons is a Bad Idea.

Generally agreed by everyone who?

Click to shrink...

Actually bare minimum is 0. Anything above that is optional. As long as you accept that success isn't guarenteed.

One point is the equivalent effort needed to teach a race of magically blind individuals to do magic by banging a hammer into things. It represents 20% of Snorri's time and isn't a small amount.
Even people arguing for more actions agreeded that 1 wasn't a catastrophic failure.

I want to do more than the bare minimum, but I want to do more than the bare minimum with the understanding that the bare minimum is not dire. Seems much more worthwhile to me to argue for more actions into them from a perspective of how it benefits them, rather than from a perspective of fear for the issues they could cause.

Click to shrink...

This was a while ago so give me some time to hunt down more comments.

 

[Derpmind]

While I am sympathetic to the argument that we should spend one retainer action on raising Drakks ontop of one Snorri action to get them use to working with other Dawis, @Derpmind's plan has not indicated that it will accept the Coronation Gift, which is why I am not voting for it. My hope is actually that Kartash trait Gift Giver trait upgrades, and we can divert one retainer action in Turn 51 to the Drakk.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, I should have added that yesterday. I've put accepting the coronation gift in now.

 

[steampvnc1880]

Bare minimum is not zero. Bare minimum is one. Spending one point on drakk rearing is mandatory last I checked because Snorri literally refuses to do any less.

"Cost: minimum 1 action, heir action or retainer action, 2/?? actions] Locked until Turn 55 Results."

I'd like it if we got to ten before time runs out.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Bare minimum is not zero. Bare minimum is one. Spending one point on drakk rearing is mandatory last I checked because Snorri literally refuses to do any less.

"Cost: minimum 1 action, heir action or retainer action, 2/?? actions] Locked until Turn 55 Results."

I'd like it if we got to ten before time runs out.

Click to shrink...

Time doesn't run out, the action says that they'll be mature at 120, but the first 60 years are the most important. Timeline wise, the dragons were hatched 48/49 so they lock period corresponds to those 60 years, but we'll be able to keep doing one per turn till 61.

 

[TigerJack369]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] Plan Varried Drakk Rearing

 

[steampvnc1880]

I think we're talking past each other somehow? I interpret that as the 6 turns being the Critical Time Window to get as much Drakk Rearing as we can manage before they become set in their ways. Afterwards drakk rearing will either no longer be as effective or will no longer be available at all. 1 point a turn done by either snorri, karstah or the retainers is the bare minimum because snorri will not do zero so I think we should be shooting for one more than that at least. I don't understand why doing only one would be considered a good idea. If anything I'd like to do three actions at least once. The more effort put in the greater the reward. I don't want the bare minimum "congratulations you have three semi-tame drakks wandering around the karak annoying people". I want them accepted as members of the community like brana. Actually I wish soulcake would show thresholds for drakk rearing instead of ?? Anyway its 340 am for me so...

 

[oOAribo]

[X] Plan Varied Drakk rearing

[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, For Our Retainers

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Nagarythe [Insightful]
[X] [Social:] Skarri Dolgisson
[X] [Social:] Menlinwen

 

[WinterLantern]

Just realised this might be the first time the elves would see runelords throw down. Snorri himself is pretty terrifying on the battlefield as well considering he could probably solo an army at this point

 

[Rovos]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

 

[weeblypanda]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

[X] [Letters:] Knowledge about Prince Malekith of Nagarythe [Limited]
[X] [Social:] Skarri Dolgisson
[X] [Social:] Menlinwen

 

[BungieONI]

I think we're talking past each other somehow? I interpret that as the 6 turns being the Critical Time Window to get as much Drakk Rearing as we can manage before they become set in their ways. Afterwards drakk rearing will either no longer be as effective or will no longer be available at all. 1 point a turn done by either snorri, karstah or the retainers is the bare minimum because snorri will not do zero so I think we should be shooting for one more than that at least. I don't understand why doing only one would be considered a good idea. If anything I'd like to do three actions at least once. The more effort put in the greater the reward. I don't want the bare minimum "congratulations you have three semi-tame drakks wandering around the karak annoying people". I want them accepted as members of the community like brana. Actually I wish soulcake would show thresholds for drakk rearing instead of ?? Anyway its 340 am for me so...

Click to shrink...

Its a good idea because Snorri isn't an idiot and has also worked to get Dragon rearing resources from the elves.

If he judges that one every turn is sufficient to satisfy him, then it is sufficient for the task at hand. We can just choose to do more. Basically, arguments following the direction that Snorri's judgement is wrong does not follow with the bulk of the entire quest, where we see that his judgement is essentially correct.

Like, if this was another quest I might agree with you. But your argument doesn't work with how this quest establishes risk and consequences. I put two actions into dragons in my plan, not because I was concerned there was gonna be a problem; I just want to see how good their starting abilities are on turn 55.

 

[SpessMahren]

[X] Plan Varried Drakk Rearing

[X] Plan Turn 50: Back With A Vengeance

Those shard wyrms absolutely need constant attention from Snorri, Karstah, and the retainers in my mind. Just two actions I dislike but 1 Snorri + 1 retainer is the next best thing so I can tolerate it. Dragon psychology is vastly different to the psychology of Dawi and Dawi are a people who have extremely high standards, never forget, and rarely forgive. We need the extra effort and as much broad exposure to others in their critical formative years as possible so they can function in society and not just be Snorri's pet hermit monsters in public opinion and in behavior. Snorri isn't perfect and is blazing a utterly new trail with no precedent so when you couple that with the fact the shard wyrms have the hard road ahead compared to the Brana in order to be accepted by Dawi society rather then be tolerated as tamed monsters even a single small misstep can have large consequences. Besides do we really want to repeat the mistake Snorri made with Karstah? Are those shard wyrms not effectively his adopted kids? They may act like animals now but that will change in time and wouldn't Snorri spend significantly more effort on a apprentice if he deemed it likely they would have greater then average difficulty progressing?

 

[Stasis]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] Plan Varried Drakk Rearing

 

[Alratan]

I'd much prefer to try to invent the Master Rune of Kingship for the Coronation gift.

 

[Brahigus]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, For Our Retainers

 

[Garlak]

I think we should focus on what is our strength or specialty or area of expertise or area of research which we have delved down into.

We haven't done a bunch of research into Kingship or into Brotherhood or transmitting information or knowledge or wisdom or anything.

Our branch of stuff is odd stuff. Purification and metallurgy, Movement and Gronti and Golems and prosthetics, prosthetics and even vision. Also, great Productivity.

Our gift should be something that makes use of Snorri's strength or expertise. Any such gift will be all the greater, because it makes use of our strengths and knowledge and all the time and effort and narrative we have built up and upon in this quest. We shouldn't just try to go "Okay clearly what canon Warhammer needed most was a repository of, not merely knowledge and information, but wisdom of the ancient kings. That would solve problems in the future. Therefore, we should do that." as if that is the "missing puzzle piece" of a grand puzzle and we just need to somehow slot Snorri's efforts into that in order to Prevent Future Canon Troubles.

You want to give King Whitebeard something useful from Snorri?

Make something like, say, MPurification + Thungni + Amplification.

It's a combo idea I came up with that I really want to make for ourselves, because I think it would go great with our primordial theme -- it would absorb and transform any external energy, purify it, and then use it to Amplify the works of Thungni.

As far as Primordial World goes, it would go excellently with Makerstrike; it would be a sort of taming or perhaps harnessing of the primordial world, or perhaps just channeling of the powers of the primordial world.

It might also result in the ability for our items to sort of, network their energy. That is, right now, the storm grows stronger over time, and Mhorni grows bigger the longer he's out and connected to the earth.

But this? If it works like I hope it does -- and I think it should -- it would add an aspect of... well. More intentionality. More intentional connectivity and interactivity between the items in Snorri's panoply. That is, intentional pooling of energy; Thungni's craft would be being used to harness and transform primordial energies. Makerstrike might grow more in some way. Mhorni might grow more skilled or adept in some way. The storm would probably get even more volcanic than before, heh.

And the storm? Would probably start drawing in the Winds of Magic more actively. Snorri's storm might start becoming akin to a funnel or a siphon or a drain on enemy magic or ambient Winds of Magic.

And MPurification will make Snorri's expel any harmful magical energies that try to accumulate in him. Snorri will be able to channel huge amounts of magical energies, because the Master Rune of Purification will keep him safe!

... Now. Imagine what Snorri might be able to do if he were standing on the Arcane Fulcrum during a Storm of Magic now?

He won't just be able to apply his armor to resist it and keep working and tough it out. He'll also have MPurification to ensure any magic doesn't stick around and damage in him, and instead is turned towards Thungni's art.


... Argh. Now I'm trying to imagine a way to work in various Fire-related runes into that combo idea instead. Maybe MPurification + Forgeflame + Thungni? Or Forgeflame and Amplification?

The trouble is, MPurification just turns magic and flushes it out and turns it into heat. What if I wanted to be able to draw in heat or fires, and turn them into energy as well? MPurification + Forgeflame sounds like it might have unfortunate or hilarious interactions; MPurification transforms magic into heat... ... while Forgeflame "Condenses heat generated in area into a specified space, but requires a constant source of heat to draw from." Good thing it says "into a specified space", because that means it has an output that is set and specified, heh. If you didn't have some place to put it, you might have issues.

MPurification + Lightfright + Refraction might also be an amusing combo, if it works like imagined. If Lightfright will make it so MPurification gives off not just heat and light as well; and then uses the light to scare and assault enemies who cast magic at you. And Refraction to control that light more.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

I think we should focus on what is our strength or specialty or area of expertise or area of research which we have delved down into.

We haven't done a bunch of research into Kingship or into Brotherhood or transmitting information or knowledge or wisdom or anything.

Our branch of stuff is odd stuff. Purification and metallurgy, Movement and Gronti and Golems and prosthetics, prosthetics and even vision. Also, great Productivity.

Our gift should be something that makes use of Snorri's strength or expertise. Any such gift will be all the greater, because it makes use of our strengths and knowledge and all the time and effort and narrative we have built up and upon in this quest. We shouldn't just try to go "Okay clearly what canon Warhammer needed most was a repository of, not merely knowledge and information, but wisdom of the ancient kings. That would solve problems in the future. Therefore, we should do that." as if that is the "missing puzzle piece" of a grand puzzle and we just need to somehow slot Snorri's efforts into that in order to Prevent Future Canon Troubles.

You want to give King Whitebeard something useful from Snorri?

Make something like, say, MPurification + Thungni + Amplification.

It's a combo idea I came up with that I really want to make for ourselves, because I think it would go great with our primordial theme -- it would absorb and transform any external energy, purify it, and then use it to Amplify the works of Thungni.

As far as Primordial World goes, it would go excellently with Makerstrike; it would be a sort of taming or perhaps harnessing of the primordial world, or perhaps just channeling of the powers of the primordial world.

It might also result in the ability for our items to sort of, network their energy. That is, right now, the storm grows stronger over time, and Mhorni grows bigger the longer he's out and connected to the earth.

But this? If it works like I hope it does -- and I think it should -- it would add an aspect of... well. More intentionality. More intentional connectivity and interactivity between the items in Snorri's panoply. That is, intentional pooling of energy; Thungni's craft would be being used to harness and transform primordial energies. Makerstrike might grow more in some way. Mhorni might grow more skilled or adept in some way. The storm would probably get even more volcanic than before, heh.

And the storm? Would probably start drawing in the Winds of Magic more actively. Snorri's storm might start becoming akin to a funnel or a siphon or a drain on enemy magic or ambient Winds of Magic.

And MPurification will make Snorri's expel any harmful magical energies that try to accumulate in him. Snorri will be able to channel huge amounts of magical energies, because the Master Rune of Purification will keep him safe!

... Now. Imagine what Snorri might be able to do if he were standing on the Arcane Fulcrum during a Storm of Magic now?

He won't just be able to apply his armor to resist it and keep working and tough it out. He'll also have MPurification to ensure any magic doesn't stick around and damage in him, and instead is turned towards Thungni's art.


... Argh. Now I'm trying to imagine a way to work in various Fire-related runes into that combo idea instead. Maybe MPurification + Forgeflame + Thungni? Or Forgeflame and Amplification?

The trouble is, MPurification just turns magic and flushes it out and turns it into heat. What if I wanted to be able to draw in heat or fires, and turn them into energy as well? MPurification + Forgeflame sounds like it might have unfortunate or hilarious interactions; MPurification transforms magic into heat... ... while Forgeflame "Condenses heat generated in area into a specified space, but requires a constant source of heat to draw from." Good thing it says "into a specified space", because that means it has an output that is set and specified, heh. If you didn't have some place to put it, you might have issues.

MPurification + Lightfright + Refraction might also be an amusing combo, if it works like imagined. If Lightfright will make it so MPurification gives off not just heat and light as well; and then uses the light to scare and assault enemies who cast magic at you. And Refraction to control that light more.

Click to shrink...

Wow, I really like the idea of MPurification as our anvil protection. We don't have normal amplification and understanding it is going to be I think 3 actions. It's a C4 odd/talisman rune so it's like 4 - (4-6) - 1 = 3AP. Becomes 2 input with traits to understand, then 2 more to get the normal rune. So like 4 AP total.

Compressing Amplifier is 1 ap because it's C5 and odd + talisman specialty is 6 total. Then making the normals is 2 ap. 3 total. Literally easier for us to compress and convert MAmplifier than MAmplification. So lets do that instead because it's just better lol. Something like MPurification + amplifier + ? to take the magic out of Snorri and throw it back into the item.

Putting that aside for a second, we have MExpurgation and it's been suggested that Expurgation + Mobile Siphoning + Vigorous Furnace for a molten core of the planet theme might work for either World that Was or the forge set. Expurgation in general is a very good rune to use for Whitebeard's gift because it's a save or die for mages you really want deleted and for us for the same reason.

 

[Garlak]

We don't have normal amplification

Click to shrink...

... Ugh, that's right. We only have MAmplification.

So it'd either have to be MAmplification + Purification + Thungni, or it'd have to be... I dunno, MPurification + Thungni + ??? something else. Maybe Fire, maybe Forgeflame. Maybe Spell-something or Warding or Fury or who knows.

Compressing Amplifier is 1 ap because it's C5 and odd + talisman specialty is 6 total. Then making the normals is 2 ap. 3 total. Literally easier for us to compress and convert MAmplifier than MAmplification. So lets do that instead because it's just better lol. Something like MPurification + amplifier + ? to take the magic out of Snorri and throw it back into the item.

Click to shrink...

Hm, you sure that Compressing Amplifier doesn't just get you the MAmplification master rune?

Putting that aside for a second, we have MExpurgation and it's been suggested that Expurgation + Mobile Siphoning + Vigorous Furnace for a molten core of the planet theme might work for either World that Was or the forge set.

Click to shrink...

That's a very fun idea, heh. Molten Core of the Planet. Imagine that on a Dragon Gronti? Give that sucker a good breath attack too, and what you've got is a dragon Gronti that prowls around, absorbs energy and shrugs off magic, and breaths out annihilation.

Give it something to shrug off physical attacks too. Maybe some kind of Mountainsouled or the Master Rune of Adamant or something. Or perhaps some kind of Living Metal body. Then, not only will it be powered by the heart of the earth, it'll also have all the strength of the molten earth as well.

Expurgation, Mobile Siphoning, Vigorous Furnace, Living Metal, plus Firebreath... plus either flight if we can manage it, or some kind of MPassage or MTraversal so it can travel through the earth.

And what you've got there is a Magma Dragon that can fuck things up.

... Imagine siccing that thing on enemies trying to invade the Underway. It would be able to tunnel through the earth, swimming through stone like water, eat up corrupt energies and purify them, kill everything with fire, and then move on to the next problem.

Hmm, if we can apply some of the lessons of Grungni's Challenge to that too -- maybe "shape the metal", except it'd be "shape the stone/metal/whatever-you-just-liquified-with-too-much-fire". So it's like a Magma Dragon that will purify magic or corrupt things, will be powered by siphoning energies from the earth or from the Winds of Magic above or from battlefield magic, will swim through stone, and then be able to shape the stone back together with its fire in order to reseal caverns after itself.

And if it can use the Underway to travel, or just travel through the earth like a Shai Hulud, then it can get anywhere in Norsca really fast. Pop up and surprise the enemy. And then haul ass and relocate quickly too. It'd be a nightmare to face for enemies on the ground or underground.

And for enemies in the sky, we have the Brana.

 

[_The_Bomb]

[X] Plan Turn 50 Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep
[X] Plan Turn 50 Expurgation, Structural Siphoning, Dragons, War Prep

 

[MrRageQuit]

Hm, you sure that Compressing Amplifier doesn't just get you the MAmplification master rune?

Click to shrink...

No, because Amplifier is explicitly described to be "greatly improved" over M-Amplification's "improved."

Wow, I really like the idea of MPurification as our anvil protection. We don't have normal amplification and understanding it is going to be I think 3 actions. It's a C4 odd/talisman rune so it's like 4 - (4-6) - 1 = 3AP. Becomes 2 input with traits to understand, then 2 more to get the normal rune. So like 4 AP total.

Compressing Amplifier is 1 ap because it's C5 and odd + talisman specialty is 6 total. Then making the normals is 2 ap. 3 total. Literally easier for us to compress and convert MAmplifier than MAmplification. So lets do that instead because it's just better lol. Something like MPurification + amplifier + ? to take the magic out of Snorri and throw it back into the item.

Click to shrink...

The important question is what we want to do with the magic in the item, because only a wazzock would just let it pile up. Determining that would help establish what the third rune should be. Thungni would make sense, it would help ensure the magic empowers Runework that much more effectively.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

Hm, you sure that Compressing Amplifier doesn't just get you the MAmplification master rune?

Click to shrink...

So just to be clear here: MAmplification is part of the Amplifier combo. Compressing the Amplifier combo gives us MAmplifier. To get the normal version of either runes it's a 2AP project that requires understanding the Master Rune first. Compression automatically gives you understanding and compressing a combo is cheaper than understanding the MRune that goes into making it in this case. So it's faster to compress and get MAmplifier and maker normal Amplfier than it is to understand MAmplification and make normal Amplification.


Any talisman or engineering rune that's also odd can be C6 or lower and compressing is literally 1 action, understanding is 4. Thank you new research system.

No, because Amplifier is explicitly described to be "greatly improved" over M-Amplification's "improved."


The important question is what we want to do with the magic in the item, because only a wazzock would just let it pile up. Determining that would help establish what the third rune should be. Thungni would make sense, it would help ensure the magic empowers Runework that much more effectively.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and one issue is that Purification dumps the magic as heat so there needs to be rune that converts heat back into magic for it to be useful in the forging. Otherwise it's just good for keeping Snorri from exploding again.