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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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You know, this particular sort of issue might well be the reason behind the Ancestor-Gods dwindling away in the future, with those enormous debts then being 'repaid' by cleaving ever more strongly to their specific plans and ideals.
 
yeah now that you have to think about it, just how much debt do the dawi owe the ancestor gods and how do they deal with that on both sides?
 
tri2 said:
yeah now that you have to think about it, just how much debt do the dawi owe the ancestor gods and how do they deal with that on both sides?
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Dawi lived with that for such a Long Time that it became their natural state of being. Even fetus that doesn't even have the knowledge of what an Ancestor is are in that state, even the Chaos Dwarfs are in that state, except to Hashut. So they deal with the debt by... doing what we have seem then doing./s
 
EldritchObserver said:
Dawi lived with that for such a Long Time that it became their natural state of being. Even fetus that doesn't even have the knowledge of what an Ancestor is are in that state, even the Chaos Dwarfs are in that state, except to Hashut. So they deal with the debt by... doing what we have seem then doing./s
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so just follow that example then? bury everyone equally in debt forever. and just tell them, you'll get use to it? :V
 
tri2 said:
so just follow that example then? bury everyone equally in debt forever. and just tell them, you'll get use to it? :V
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Owing us has to become a universal fact of life, the same way owing the ancestors is. That way, they will stop trying to even the books and repay us, and just start acting in ways that we might approve of. :V
 
Godwinson said:
You know, this particular sort of issue might well be the reason behind the Ancestor-Gods dwindling away in the future, with those enormous debts then being 'repaid' by cleaving ever more strongly to their specific plans and ideals.
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This and tri2's post brings up an interesting point; how are the Ancestor Gods viewed in terms of debt in Dwarf society? I personally think it is more of a subconscious thing. With most debt from them not really being noticed due to how much larger than life they are and how literally everything was built on their teachings. They're the Ancestors. Be sure to follow their teachings Beardling. I would imagine their rule is considered as apart of that debt.

We actually do have an example of Dwarfs being saved by an Ancestor- that being Storri and Huldra who would found Clan Winterhearth. It does suggest that Dwarfs who personally owe things to the Ancestors will act as if they owe them something.

soulcake said:
When the pair reached the ravine's end they found no path upwards, so together they clawed their way up the cliff face, their broken bodies screaming in protest. When they, at last, reached the top, the two dwarfs found themselves face to face with Valaya herself. The Ancestor making her way towards the land that would become Karak Eight Peaks at the head of a great train of dwarfs and supplies.

The Ancestor, having heard the tale of the returning Shieldthanes, was well pleased by Storri's commitment to her strictures and with Huldra's resolve and prowess in battle and brought them back to Azul to be healed.

When the King of Azul, Kazdan Dragonsbane, learned the truth of the tale from both Huldra and Storri's lips, so overcome was he by the valour of the young dwarf and the debt he owed that he swore then and there that he would honour the brave dwarf with lands west of his hold, and the hand of the daughter whose life he had saved. Valaya, unwilling to be outdone and desiring to favour them for the impression they gave her, would offer three things to the new couple.

First, for the avenging of the grudges made for the dead and the clearing of the mountain paths of vile beastmen, wealth and supplies in such a number that they could build a home even without the King's aid.

Second, a pair of fine ruby and teal cloaks, so well made that they would stand the test of time, emblazoned on their back was the image of a roaring fireplace with a hammer and poker crossed overtop.

And lastly, a gift so beautiful and grand that its description is left unrecorded and untold. A treasure of such value to the Clan that it is said only a few dwarfs in the Clan know of its true nature and location.
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How the King responded to Storri's actions is sensible and Dwarf-like. Valaya, being pleased by Storri's adherence to her teachings, decided to reward him in addition to the King. A little after this we got Clan Winterhearth's feelings on the rescue and reward.

soulcake said:
Though we prize our connection to Thungni, we damn well added his Rune to our sigil after all, no true Winterhearth Dawi will forget Valaya's gift to us. So much so that the third most common career path among us is entering the clergy of Valaya, we place special emphasis on Valaya's strictures and we hold Brozan in especially high esteem of all the festival days. All of it, is our best attempt at repaying the debt Storri owed, and that we inherited, with her specifically.
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Your post is correct in that Dwarfs feeling indebted to the Ancestors will to honor them even more than other Dwarfs. I... don't really get the feeling that Winterhearth will ever feel as if the debt is repayed.

I just don't really think that the Ancestors would leave the Karaz Ankor to get Dwarfs to act closer to their ideologies. As for my reasoning? Well, Dwarfs already do that, when they're alive and I don't see how disappearing would make Dwarfs follow their teachings even more.
 
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MrHobbit said:
This and tri2's post brings up an interesting point; how are the Ancestor Gods viewed in terms of debt in Dwarf society? I personally think it is more of a subconscious thing. With most debt from them not really being noticed due to how much larger than life they are and how literally everything was built on their teachings. They're the Ancestors. Be sure to follow their teachings Beardling. I would imagine their rule is considered as apart of that debt.

We actually do have an example of Dwarfs being saved by an Ancestor- that being Storri and Huldra who would found Clan Winterhearth. It does suggest that Dwarfs who personally owe things to the Ancestors will act as if they owe them something.


How the King responded to Storri's actions is sensible and Dwarf-like. Valaya, being pleased by Storri's adherence to her teachings, decided to reward him in addition to the King. A little after this we got Clan Winterhearth's feelings on the rescue and reward.


Your post is correct in that Dwarfs feeling indebted to the Ancestors will to honor them even more than other Dwarfs. I... don't really get the feeling that Winterhearth will ever feel as if the debt is repayed.

I just don't really think that the Ancestors would leave the Karaz Ankor to get Dwarfs to act closer to their ideologies. As for my reasoning? Well, Dwarfs already do that, when they're alive and I don't see how disappearing would make Dwarfs follow their teachings even more.
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Ah, sorry, I wasn't meaning that the Ancestors would leave to have that effect, but that the growing tensions from unrepayable debts would result in them leaving to avoid causing Problems, and that those unrepayable debts that remained would then encourage devoted actions.
 
Godwinson said:
Ah, sorry, I wasn't meaning that the Ancestors would leave to have that effect, but that the growing tensions from unrepayable debts would result in them leaving to avoid causing Problems, and that those unrepayable debts that remained would then encourage devoted actions.
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Hrm. I could certainly see that playing a role in their decision to fade. Can't really say for certain, but I'll probably turn it over in my mind for a few months and eventually come to the conclusion I need to think about it more. :V

I personally suspect their are a few major factors in them deciding to leave. Grimnir's sacrifice. The fading of magic. A desire for the Beardlings to grow on their own. That being said.

soulcake said:
Baggroth did not see it at the moment, caught up as he was in his own thoughts, but had he looked closer he would have noted a red tint in the Ancestor's spit.
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I can't help if this is related somehow. Not sure how it would be related, because it is perfectly logical for even an Ancestor to get wounded fighting a minor Chaos God. But it feels like a Chekov's gun or a hint on the fact that they're fading away.
 
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So, if I understand the last dozen or so pages, our old question of "How do we become an Ancestor ?" has been answered.

Give gifts after gifts until the entire fucking Karaz-Ankor (did I spell this right?) is so far down the Debt Hole, they'll have no hope to ever get out ever again.
 
Deathwings said:
Give gifts after gifts until the entire fucking Karaz-Ankor (did I spell this right?) is so far down the Debt Hole, they'll have no hope to ever get out ever again.
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If we're going to do it this way we're going to need to discover the level of specialty that comes after savant for productivity... I don't know about the rest of you but I'm willing to pursue that level of productivity.
 
Whenyouseeyou said:
Hey guys with how much we are doing will one day will we be warship like the others
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We go over this a lot. Dwarves practice ancestor worship.

That means all ancestors in theory.
In reality no one has the time to properly venerate everyone in their family tree and major figures from your clan and hold are prioritised over others. The exception here are the Ancestors that people are familiar with, we give them the capital because every dwarf worships them to some degree. Notable cases of dwarves who are widely worshiped but not an Ancestor are people like Snorri Whitebeard and Gromrimbrindal (seperately if they are indeed the same dwarf)

Snorri is already likely to be a clan ancestor for the winterhearths and is on the right path to being a hold ancestor for Karaka Draka.

I doubt there is any amount of favours however that will push Snorri into the Ancestor tier however for starters we'd need to have that level with every hold and every clan in existence, and possibly also with every guild and the cults. I think soulcake said that it takes reshaping dwarven society to get into that rank. Having everyone owe us favours is basically just where Snorri Whitebeard will be.
 
Dark as Silver said:
We go over this a lot. Dwarves practice ancestor worship.

That means all ancestors in theory.
In reality no one has the time to properly venerate everyone in their family tree and major figures from your clan and hold are prioritised over others. The exception here are the Ancestors that people are familiar with, we give them the capital because every dwarf worships them to some degree. Notable cases of dwarves who are widely worshiped but not an Ancestor are people like Snorri Whitebeard and Gromrimbrindal (seperately if they are indeed the same dwarf)

Snorri is already likely to be a clan ancestor for the winterhearths and is on the right path to being a hold ancestor for Karaka Draka.

I doubt there is any amount of favours however that will push Snorri into the Ancestor tier however for starters we'd need to have that level with every hold and every clan in existence, and possibly also with every guild and the cults. I think soulcake said that it takes reshaping dwarven society to get into that rank. Having everyone owe us favours is basically just where Snorri Whitebeard will be.
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just means we need to make more toys so that EVERY child from now on will have one of our toys, eventually all the non toy'd dwarfs will be dead and gone, leaving only those who have our toys behind. :V
 
Dark as Silver said:
I think soulcake said that it takes reshaping dwarven society to get into that rank. Having everyone owe us favours is basically just where Snorri Whitebeard will be.
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That's pretty much exactly what he says on the subject yes.

You need to do something similar to what the other Ancestor Gods have done which is to effectively replace or add a core pillar to Dwarf society something that will be effectively added to the definition of the word Dwarf from then on out in the sense that if you think of the word Dwarf you will think of that pillar.

Being a Snorri Whitebeard just makes you an ancestor god, not an Ancestor God effectively where you're the epitome of what a Dwarf currently is rather than redefining what a Dwarf is, and IIRC our Snorri is beginning to slip into the role of a lower end ancestor god with the younger generations which we saw when he first revealed the existence of gromril chain to the Karaka Drakk royal family.
 
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Deathwings said:
So, if I understand the last dozen or so pages, our old question of "How do we become an Ancestor ?" has been answered.

Give gifts after gifts until the entire fucking Karaz-Ankor (did I spell this right?) is so far down the Debt Hole, they'll have no hope to ever get out ever again.
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So the plan is to become Santa Claus, and deliver gifts to the entire population of the Karaz Ankor in a single night.



Okay, let's do it.
 
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