RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[IronFist]

I have some issues with this line of thinking you seem to be minimizing the light tree but it not just about curing blindness it could lead to lasers as you said or being able to see the wind of magic through runic eyes or other things I am forgetting

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Not really. I came up with some of those ideas myself.
The light ideas are cool, no question about it.
Seeing stones.
Cameras.
Photophones.
Flashbangs
Seviroscope
Lasers

But its a narrow field.

Alchemy is a mystery box that contains more techs like adamant, element neutral dragonblood, softening Gromril to make chain, and who knows what else.
It's a whole branch of runecraft that no one thought of before.
The cutting edge.
And a lot broader in scope than light.
I don't want it to remain a mystery box for so long.
After fulfilling our oath to Orra seems like a good place to open it.

 

[Olivebirdy]

I've just caught up. This was a fun read.

Are there any plans in the works for making the Grimnir golem, axes, armor? That's been lying on our option list since the Great Throng.

 

[fictionfan]

Not really. I came up with some of those ideas myself.
The light ideas are cool, no question about it.
Seeing stones.
Cameras.
Photophones.
Flashbangs
Seviroscope
Lasers

But its a narrow field.

Alchemy is a mystery box that contains more techs like adamant, element neutral dragonblood, softening Gromril to make chain, and who knows what else.
It's a whole branch of runecraft that no one thought of before.
The cutting edge.
And a lot broader in scope than light.
I don't want it to remain a mystery box for so long.
After fulfilling our oath to Orra seems like a good place to open it.

Click to shrink...

Also we have an apprentice that is really into light. We should give her a chance to manage it.

 

[Rotekian]

But its a narrow field.

Click to shrink...

Even a narrow field can potentially grow broader. It would certainly take further research to determine the feasibility of some of the more crazy light related ideas, but I can come up with the odd potential mystery box down the light tree.
Holo Runes - Is it possible for a Rune to be constructed out of beams of light?
Laser carving - A hammer and chisel are the more traditional tools. That is not the same as saying no other tool is capable of being used, as long as the Runesmith is the one guiding the laser.
Solid Illusions - Light and sound make for fairly convincing illusions. If we found a way to make them solid as well that would open up all kinds of possibilities.

 

[Alratan]

Thinking about how runic knowledge could have been stolen, we know that Hashut grants his sorcerer-prophets scrying magic and/or it may be possible for daemons to see the material world from outside it. Given this it's quite possible no runesmith ever shared anything inappropriately; and that the knowledge was gained by magical spying - which leaves open the possibility that such spying could still be happening.

As for prosthetic eyes, I think making one that can fully replicate dwarven vision may be harder than expected. I could easily see it requiring the next level of Secrets of Light and Mind of Things to make even a crude replacement eye, with another level of Secrets of Light on top of that to make a decent quality one, in a similar pattern to the runes for replacement limbs.

 

[Jreengus]

I've just caught up. This was a fun read.

Are there any plans in the works for making the Grimnir golem, axes, armor? That's been lying on our option list since the Great Throng.

Click to shrink...

There's a lot of debate around that, opinions vary on whether we should do more research, stockpile more adamant to use in the construction, and/or build some test gronti first. Either way there doesn't seem to be much support that I've seen for doing it in the immediate future.

 

[Czes]

Could we create prosthetic eyes that can perceive the different Winds of Magic? That might be worth some research points. Especially, if we choose to go for alchemy.

 

[fictionfan]

Could we create prosthetic eyes that can perceive the different Winds of Magic? That might be worth some research points. Especially, if we choose to go for alchemy.

Click to shrink...

Alchemy is going to have to come first before a project like that is even close to reasonable.

 

[pucflek]

I've just caught up. This was a fun read.

Are there any plans in the works for making the Grimnir golem, axes, armor? That's been lying on our option list since the Great Throng.

Click to shrink...

I have been periodically lobbying for trying to stockpile materials for it, as it would be incredibly price and required at least another... I don't remember i think the ballpark was somewhere around 15 turns? To make it as good as possible.

Could we create prosthetic eyes that can perceive the different Winds of Magic? That might be worth some research points. Especially, if we choose to go for alchemy.

Click to shrink...

Maybe? Until we research the path, we won't know

Alchemy is going to have to come first before a project like that is even close to reasonable.

Click to shrink...

I still don't see why the alchemy is such a must have, tbh, and i never did. We are managing perfectly well with out previous material manipulation. I know it might technically synergize with making even better adamant, thus shaving down turns in further research of it (but i doubt it, because the one, noncanon mind you, example of higher tier of gromril was magically inert. Seems weird that wind manipulation discipline could achieve something like that). I am torn on it tbh.

 

[Alratan]

but i doubt it, because the one, noncanon mind you, example of higher tier of gromril was magically inert. Seems weird that wind manipulation discipline could achieve something like that

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The hints we have seem to suggest is that lower grades of gromril are lower grade because they've been magically corrupted. Knowing more about how magic transforms matter could well help us learn to reverse the process.

Beyond that, given that adamant strengthens magic of the right kind (runes) rather than weakening it rather strongly suggests that making gromril purer does not make it magically inert, quite the opposite.

 

[pucflek]

The hints we have seem to suggest is that lower grades of gromril are lower grade because they've been magically corrupted. Knowing more about how magic transforms matter could well help us learn to reverse the process.

Click to shrink...

That is, in fact, what i have been hinting at when i said that Alchemy might synergize with researching Gromril.

Beyond that, given that adamant strengthens magic of the right kind (runes) rather than weakening it rather strongly suggests that making gromril purer does not make it magically inert, quite the opposite.

Click to shrink...

That actually depends. I have my own thoughts about it. Either way we can't say.

As i said, i understand why there is an impetus for research into this. But i am not really in the camp that believes that it is imperative for us to do it as soon as possible, and i felt the need to point out that its possible benefits are, at this point, purely speculative.

 

[Olivebirdy]

There's a lot of debate around that, opinions vary on whether we should do more research, stockpile more adamant to use in the construction, and/or build some test gronti first. Either way there doesn't seem to be much support that I've seen for doing it in the immediate future.

Click to shrink...

I have been periodically lobbying for trying to stockpile materials for it, as it would be incredibly price and required at least another... I don't remember i think the ballpark was somewhere around 15 turns? To make it as good as possible.

Click to shrink...

How does stockpiling materials work? I've been noticing the Orders votes, but how do you tell what you need for each vote?

I think making the Grimnir Gronti will likely progress our waking research tree.

As good as possible... This might be distinctly undwarfy of me, but we're about to have another invasion. We really might need Moira's banner and the Grimnir gronti really soon.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

I have been periodically lobbying for trying to stockpile materials for it, as it would be incredibly price and required at least another... I don't remember i think the ballpark was somewhere around 15 turns? To make it as good as possible.

Click to shrink...

You haven't exactly needed to push for stockpiling considering it's happening naturally as we spend fewer bars of adamant than we make per turn on average.

That actually depends. I have my own thoughts about it. Either way we can't say.

As i said, i understand why there is an impetus for research into this. But i am not really in the camp that believes that it is imperative for us to do it as soon as possible, and i felt the need to point out that its possible benefits are, at this point, purely speculative.

Click to shrink...

The results of almost all our research are speculative and based on educated guesses for what we'll get when we take them and for alchemy, a lot of that guessing has boiled down to improved material science where the quality of the ingredients we're putting into our work one of our main limiting factors on the quality of what we make at this point will be improved other speculation has also mentioned reasonable conclusions giving ingredients new properties, transmuting them, and outright manufacturing them so it's a pretty big thing if it turns out to be true.

How does stockpiling materials work? I've been noticing the Orders votes, but how do you tell what you need for each vote?

Click to shrink...

Don't spend more materials than you bring in that's how stockpiling works. And, we generally ask or already know how a specific ingredient will affect a rune.

As good as possible... This might be distinctly undwarfy of me, but we're about to have another invasion. We really might need Moira's banner and the Grimnir gronti really soon.

Click to shrink...

As good as reasonably possible is the best you're getting because as good as possible or perfect are impossible to achieve due to the fact that our craft is always advancing so we'll literally never build anything again if it has to be as good as possible.

 

[Jreengus]

How does stockpiling materials work? I've been noticing the Orders votes, but how do you tell what you need for each vote?

I think making the Grimnir Gronti will likely progress our waking research tree.

As good as possible... This might be distinctly undwarfy of me, but we're about to have another invasion. We really might need Moira's banner and the Grimnir gronti really soon.

Click to shrink...

In the case of stockpiling adamant we generate it automatically so stockpiling is just a case of not spending it, there's a table of gronti adamant costs in the faq:

Q. Can we get some Adamant costs for Gronti?
A. Table below

Spoiler

Type of Gronti	Cost in Bars
Dwarf-Sized, Adamant Skeleton	2
Dwarf-Sized, Fully Adamant	8
Ogre-Sized, Adamant Skeleton	4
Ogre-Sized, Fully Adamant	16
Bloodthirster-Sized, Adamant Skeleton	8
Bloodthirster-Sized, Fully Adamant	32
Set Numbers, Dwarf Sized	1 per item, 3 for armour
Set Numbers, Ogre-Sized	2 per item, 8 for armour, 3 for Adamant Buff
Set Numbers, Bloodthirster-Sized	3 per item, 12 for armour, 3 for Adamant Buff

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For other stuff the rune list info post noted what materials are needed for certain master runes, using other ingredients is a case of guesswork and checking with Soulcake if Snorri thinks he can make it work, then if we want to make something but don't have the material we order it.

It's worth noting that (AFAIK, I wasn't actually around back then) the banner and Golem were both added to the list at the bottom of updates back when the thread was discussing what to do with the Greedy One Heart after people suggested them as uses in thread. They aren't things we should necessarily feel compelled to do over and above any other user suggested projects. Personally I think if we want to help prepare for the war with the beastmen we should focus on equipping the Hearth Guard with the max of three different banners over trying to rush out the gronti.

 

[Alratan]

I think making the Grimnir Gronti will likely progress our waking research tree.

As good as possible... This might be distinctly undwarfy of me, but we're about to have another invasion. We really might need Moira's banner and the Grimnir gronti really soon.

Click to shrink...

Depending on how we expect the beastman invasion to go, whether it's a long guerrilla war of attrition or a short sharp massive invasion, different contributions could be valuable in different ways.

A long drawn out war might, for example, make further prosthetic research more valuable to allow otherwise invalided out warriors to return to the field, reducing the classic dwarven weakness to attrition. Fighting without binocular vision is no joke - and I could theoretically see us creating other prosthetic organs to deal with injuries that would otherwise be eventually lethal or life limiting - although how a gromril spleen or kidney would work I don't know. Presumably magically.

A short, intense war with lots of 'stockpiled' giant monsters suddenly coming out of hiding might make gronti more attractive, particularly if sanity blasting monsters like jabberslythes take the field.

A mid case with a medium length war against hordes of regular beastmen might make leaning into productivity more attractive. Arming and armouring large numbers of dwarven heroes and clerics, or allowing them to be armed and armoured more easily would then be particularly valuable. This might incentivise options like the Gromril Chain research path to make gromril chain cheaper, or alchemy research to make larger scale production of mid tier reagents cheaper so they can be sold to other runesmiths to allow them to improve their productivity.

 

[pucflek]

The results of almost all our research are speculative and based on educated guesses for what we'll get when we take them and for alchemy, a lot of that guessing has boiled down to improved material science where the quality of the ingredients we're putting into our work one of our main limiting factors on the quality of what we make at this point will be improved other speculation has also mentioned reasonable conclusions giving ingredients new properties, transmuting them, and outright manufacturing them so it's a pretty big thing if it turns out to be true.

Click to shrink...

Well yes. But so would be making an actual Master Rune, as it would let us layer our two most powerful runic combinations into single rune and thus enabling addition of another two runes to them. We also didn't make one ever since we brought purification into being iirc.

I just haven't really felt being constrained by insufficient materials or their potency as reagents for majority of the quest, whereas runic wise, well we are still limited by three slots. We could really hammer something awesome out. We have rune combos for two great Master runes.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

Honestly, I'm withholding any and all planning for after the meeting.

It requires barely any time passing and will most likely provide quite the perspective on where we stand, tradition and reputation wise.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Well yes. But so would be making an actual Master Rune, as it would let us layer our two most powerful runic combinations into single rune and thus enabling addition of another two runes to them. We also didn't make one ever since we brought purification into being iirc.

I just haven't really felt being constrained by insufficient materials or their potency as reagents for majority of the quest, whereas runic wise, well we are still limited by three slots. We could really hammer something awesome out. We have rune combos for two great Master runes.

Click to shrink...

The biggest barrier keeping us from constructing T5 items at this point is T5 ingredients as we can pretty much spit out T4 items without putting in overly much effort now a days so I wouldn't exactly call our craft as not being constrained by insufficient materials mean while if we just did a master rune well congrats you made a new rune that might occasionally give you a better T4 but that's about it.

And I don't know about you but universally better T4s and a higher chance of producing T5s sounds better to me than occasionally producing better T4s and maybe ever producing a better T5.

 

[pucflek]

The biggest barrier keeping us from constructing T5 items at this point is T5 ingredients as we can pretty much spit out T4 items without putting in overly much effort now a days so I wouldn't exactly call our craft as not being constrained by insufficient materials mean while if we just did a master rune well congrats you made a new rune that might occasionally give you a better T4 but that's about it.

And I don't know about you but universally better T4s and a higher chance of producing T5s sounds better to me than occasionally producing better T4s and maybe ever producing a better T5.

Click to shrink...

The idea that we will get a T5 crafting items through alchemy is... weird. Did you even look at the offered list of what T5 ingredient is?

We have sufficient materials for making T5's, we just don't have those once in century items like Kholek's brain that would actually make it so. And no amount of alchemy will grant us such anyway.

 

[Byzantine]

We have sufficient materials for making T5's, we just don't have those once in century items like Kholek's brain that would actually make it so. And no amount of alchemy will grant us such anyway.

Click to shrink...

The idea is to use alchemy to create those once in a century items. And if it can create T5 metal from T4 it can probably create what we need. At great cost.

 

[tri2]

basically we want to make a super smelter where like how we use a decade to produce a single adamant bar, we now use a decade or longer to transmute a T4 to T5

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

The idea that we will get a T5 crafting items through alchemy is... weird. Did you even look at the offered list of what T5 ingredient is?

We have sufficient materials for making T5's, we just don't have those once in century items like Kholek's brain that would actually make it so. And no amount of alchemy will grant us such anyway.

Click to shrink...

It's not that odd considering we're getting around to manufacturing the T5 version of gromril so T5 ingredients aren't solely the domain of once in a century monster kills or anything like that also again T5s aren't the sole reason to get alchemy either it should be able to improve T4s as well plus other broader material effects as I discussed before.

basically we want to make a super smelter where like how we use a decade to produce a single adamant bar, we now use a decade or longer to transmute a T4 to T5

Click to shrink...

I'd think more like fifty years or something but ya that's one of the directions alchemy may be able to take us.

 

[pucflek]

The idea is to use alchemcy to create those once in a century items. And if it can create T5 metal from T4 it can probably create what we need. At great cost.

Click to shrink...

The idea that we somehow create something on par with Finger of Nagash, Blood of Aenarion, Kholek Suneaters brain or Greedy Troll Heart via alchemy to me seems preposterous. It doesn't seem to be in the vein of the very idea of these reagents of phenomenal power.

The fact that we could do so with Gromril is different, because 1) we have no idea if whatever we crap out will actually be T5 and 2) even if it were, it's still gromril. It has a fairly special place as a material wrt Dwarfs and overall Warhammer lore.

 

[Jreengus]

The idea that we somehow create something on par with Finger of Nagash, Blood of Aenarion, Kholek Suneaters brain or Greedy Troll Heart via alchemy to me seems preposterous. It doesn't seem to be in the vein of the very idea of these reagents of phenomenal power.

The fact that we could do so with Gromril is different, because 1) we have no idea if whatever we crap out will actually be T5 and 2) even if it were, it's still gromril. It has a fairly special place as a material wrt Dwarfs and overall Warhammer lore.

Click to shrink...

T5 is a very wide range of ingredients, those are the highest level. Of course T5 is "one of a kind" so I highly doubt we will ever manufacture a T5 material unless we use a T5 in the process since anything we can manufacture is no longer one of a kind and thus would be demoted down to T4 even if it was more powerful than the weaker stuff that qualifies for T5.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

T5 is less about the true chemical/material properties, as far as I can tell, but more of a spiritual thing, perhaps powered by perception and the warp?

Either way, it is something great and powerful, of great value and irreplaceable.

To be frank, if we were actually willing to part from our Ancestor God keepsakes, those might be T5, but no amount of smelting and refining would ever result in something unique unless the input was already so or the way we did it was unique.

(Dragon fire forged adamant perhaps?)