They're all good really. *shrug*
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Renascence: A Homura Quest
- Thread starter Higure
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy Mystery
- Location
- California
Well if your fishing for opinions as is.
Blood Knight's strictly speaking a more powerful boost but... well the explicit state Ruki would find herself in constantly as a result is distressing to me.
Fix Her is really nice though, since we've been below 300 for how long now? At the same time though, I worry about increasing the amount of Seeds she needs... Higure already answered the other concern of it going too far though, no worry there.
Remember is the only one that just has a flat benefit, no strings attached, but at the same time how often will Ruki be involved when Homucifer-esque critters come knocking?
Of the three, I'm on the fence between Fix Her and Remember. Would probably take Remember myself too just to not strain poor kouhai too much.
Every time?
I would peg Homura's resting Sanity as like... 400~450 maybe? She really can't be a high sanity MG with how she controls time and then Akemi madness would suggest her entire family has sanity issues already. I think it was answered before that most humans are like... 500 to 600? I really don't remember.
Also low sanity is probably good for Magic Theory training since you can bend reality in a knot more at lower sanity levels, just need to make sure not to dip too far below 300, preferably staying above 300 at all times I think.
- Location
- Here
Fix Her, definitely. Crazy has been too long.
Highwind
To Rise From The Ashes
- Location
- Brazil
To be fair, Homura hasn't been acting all that crazy recently, as far as I remember.
Odd, yes, but not crazy. No hallucinations like she used to have, no delusions unless her stubborness to accept her father might actually love her counts, her contradictory and incomplete sets of memories don't count because those are caused by this Loop's dimensional walls being frayed and mixing bits from a dozen settings together, and the voice in her head is definitely not caused just by low Sanity and an odd ability she didn't know she had.
Her sanity is currently 334, so she's just over two thirds away from the max, but considering Max Sanity is also a form of insanity I'd say the only actually sane range for her Sanity stat is between 333 and 666 Sanity. If she goes lower than 333 she's 2/3 of the way to pulling off Eldritch-sounding shenanigans with her Magic, and if she's higher than 666 she's 2/3 of the way to Kyubey's mindset.
- Location
- Somewhere
Yeah, to weigh in my own thoughts, Sanity doesn't seem to be as big a concern anymore. We already have a number of ways to regain sanity, and Homura's natural tendency seems to be to hover around the 300s when things aren't so bad she's getting pushed into the lower ranges. Also, lower Sanity means easier magic, which is a plus in my book. I will admit I was naturally pulled towards Fix Her as well, but right now, I kinda feel like its the one trait we can safely look over without much if any regret.
- Location
- Here
Rephrase: I think it would be better for us to have more of a margin of safety, because it seems to me that "accidentally went too low and ceased to be coherent enough to help" is more likely than "accidentally went too high and stopped caring enough to help".
- Location
- USA
I kind of doubt Max Sanity will be much of a problem; remember that even Kyubey still acts to fulfill his one goal, resolving entropy. Homura has devoted who-knows-how-many loops to saving her friends, so if she starts caring too little it's at least likely that she'll still act towards that goal with the same or greater effectiveness, whereas low Sanity may interfere with combat (as it did with the Angel witch near the start). The only real cost of Sanity overload is that our magic would (probably) be weaker, and we have our arsenal, our allies, and the fact that diplomacy has been about as important as combat ability so far to make up for it, not to mention we could probably activate the Akemi Madness if we really needed to be more insane. Remember only applies when fighting Homucifer-alikes (which we've only seen one of so far, as opposed to all the other crossovers it wouldn't help with), and Blood Knight, while tempting, doesn't really help keep her sane enough to be happy and useful, long-term.
So, I'd say Fix Her is the most useful of the three.
So, I'd say Fix Her is the most useful of the three.
Higher sanity doesn't just make magic weaker, it outright stops aspects of it from working and then stops it from working at all at really high levels.
Again, Homura makes Time her bitch. You don't do that with even normal levels of sanity. Not easily anyway.
Leaving Atlus, Part 1
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
You nod, agreeing, "I'll do it. It sounds promising."
Kayaba smiles slightly, while your father perks up, eyes almost sparkling as he gives an excited shout, "YES!" He coughs, "Ah, I mean, yes, I'll get everything in order. I'm sure you won't regret this. Since you're in classes, you'll only get called in on weekends, generally--Sundays, most likely, like today. Your workspace and team are already prepared, but processing your paperwork will take a couple of days, so you can start next week." He pulls several documents from the drawer in front of him, "Speaking of the paperwork, this is it. Sign where appropriate. It's mostly security documents."
You take the papers and set to work reading and signing it all. It's exactly as you'd expect--safety wavers, non-disclosure agreements, and general terms of employment. Nothing in it concerns you at all, so you quickly sign each before returning them to your father.
He reviews them briefly, nodding to himself, "Yes, all of these seem to be in order. Thank you, Homura--I think this will be very good for you."
You nod your agreement, "I believe it might be. I will also be accepting that RPG invitation, as well. Even if it ends up just being for one session, I'm curious what it will be like."
He smiles warmly, "Good. I know you'll have a wonderful time."
That's when Kayaba speaks up, "Ah, Takeshi? I'm afraid our time's up. Those investors will be here in ten minutes."
Your father grimaces, glancing over at Kayaba, "Fine, fine." Looking back to you, he sighs sadly, "Well, I'm afraid it's time for me to get back to work. Daisuke will drive you back, assuming you want to return?"
You nod, having more to do today, and the three of you exit the hidden room and your father's office--Daisuke is waiting in the waiting room. He perks up as the two of you enter the room, "Oh, you're back! Everything go well?"
Your father nods, "Yes. You will probably be playing chauffeur again in the future, in fact."
Daisuke has the nerve to seem pleased by this, straightening up and sketching a salute, "Will do, boss! I won't let you down!"
Your father chuckles a bit, then looks over to you, "Thank you for joining me here today, Homura-chan. I look forward to seeing you again soon."
You force a small smile for his sake, "Me too. Good luck with your meeting."
He nods, waves, and departs, Kayaba walking alongside him, and you turn to Daisuke.
"So, time to go?"
...
To be continued.
Kayaba smiles slightly, while your father perks up, eyes almost sparkling as he gives an excited shout, "YES!" He coughs, "Ah, I mean, yes, I'll get everything in order. I'm sure you won't regret this. Since you're in classes, you'll only get called in on weekends, generally--Sundays, most likely, like today. Your workspace and team are already prepared, but processing your paperwork will take a couple of days, so you can start next week." He pulls several documents from the drawer in front of him, "Speaking of the paperwork, this is it. Sign where appropriate. It's mostly security documents."
You take the papers and set to work reading and signing it all. It's exactly as you'd expect--safety wavers, non-disclosure agreements, and general terms of employment. Nothing in it concerns you at all, so you quickly sign each before returning them to your father.
He reviews them briefly, nodding to himself, "Yes, all of these seem to be in order. Thank you, Homura--I think this will be very good for you."
You nod your agreement, "I believe it might be. I will also be accepting that RPG invitation, as well. Even if it ends up just being for one session, I'm curious what it will be like."
He smiles warmly, "Good. I know you'll have a wonderful time."
That's when Kayaba speaks up, "Ah, Takeshi? I'm afraid our time's up. Those investors will be here in ten minutes."
Your father grimaces, glancing over at Kayaba, "Fine, fine." Looking back to you, he sighs sadly, "Well, I'm afraid it's time for me to get back to work. Daisuke will drive you back, assuming you want to return?"
You nod, having more to do today, and the three of you exit the hidden room and your father's office--Daisuke is waiting in the waiting room. He perks up as the two of you enter the room, "Oh, you're back! Everything go well?"
Your father nods, "Yes. You will probably be playing chauffeur again in the future, in fact."
Daisuke has the nerve to seem pleased by this, straightening up and sketching a salute, "Will do, boss! I won't let you down!"
Your father chuckles a bit, then looks over to you, "Thank you for joining me here today, Homura-chan. I look forward to seeing you again soon."
You force a small smile for his sake, "Me too. Good luck with your meeting."
He nods, waves, and departs, Kayaba walking alongside him, and you turn to Daisuke.
"So, time to go?"
...
To be continued.
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Leaving Atlus, Part 2
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
He smiles, "Yeah, time to go, Miss Akemi. This way." He waves you over, and the two of you make the walk out of ATLUS.
"So, did everything go okay with the boss?" Daisuke asks, apparently wanting a second opinion on the issue.
You think it over. You did not accomplish anything important here--you have, at best, found a new point to search for others of the 15 from, you have not acquired weapons or knowledge useful for battling Walpurgisnacht, and you have not developed relationships with any of the 15. You also didn't do anything to protect your friends during this time. It's been a worthless trip.
In spite of that, you find yourself satisfied with knowing that Takeshi Akemi, while a failure as a clockmaker, is not a failure as a father. You should have given him a chance a long, long time ago.
You're glad you did it now. There are not many loops left. If your end arrives soon, you will be glad to go knowing your father isn't your enemy, even if you're still a bit unsure about him.
"It went well, I think." You say no more on the matter.
Daisuke nods, smiling, "I'm glad. Well, let's get you home." He leads you to his car and holds the passenger-side door for you. You take your seat and buckle the belt, allowing him to close the door before walking around the car. He takes the seat beside you with cheer. "Seat buckled?" He asks, apparently ignoring the obviously buckled seat belt crossing your chest.
You kind of want to put a bullet in his brain.
"Yes."
He puts the car in gear, and begins driving.
...
Soon enough, the two of you reach the Mikis', and you disembark. Daisuke waves at you briefly before departing, and you return the favor half-heartedly.
You flick the lock open, and step inside, "I'm back!" There's no one there to answer, of course--the Mikis will both be playing SAO right now, so you're alone.
"Welcome back!"
Or so you thought. Instead, the entire room seems to brighten in an instant as you step into the kitchen and find an unexpected guest.
Sitting at the kitchen table, working on her laptop, is one Madoka Kaname.
She turns to you as you enter, smiling brightly, "Hey there, Homura-chan! I came over to visit, but found those two logged into SAO. I guess I should have guessed that, wehihi! It's okay, though--I've had a key for years, and I know they won't mind me hanging around for a while, so I thought I'd stick around until you got back."
You find yourself smiling as you take a seat across from her, "It's good to see you again."
Her smile softens, "You too, Homura-chan. I've been doing a lot of thinking since I saw you last time. I...I'm not sure how much I can do to help, like this."
You know. She won't be able to wait forever. Sooner or later, she will Wish--because that's the kind of person she is.
She's not passive. You've tried to force her to be, before, but it always failed in the end. In the face of Walpurgisnacht, she will always return to being that girl you met the first time.
The one who, faced with disaster, used herself up to stop it.
She will pierce through you if you're in the way. She'll surpass the walls you raise before her. You've seen her at the limit, and you've seen her walk right through it.
There's no changing her nature, when it shows itself.
Pink Steel.
You can remember those eyes, now. You don't know what that memory was, before, but you can see it, and it's only natural, you think.
What else would she become, if she had all those years to grow?
The girl across the table from you doesn't look so different from that other Madoka right now. You hadn't wanted to see it before--the way she had changed, since you're first loop. What used to be lurking somewhere deep has been rising, ever so slowly, and now it's just a hairsbreadth from the surface.
As she looks at you, smiling that warm smile, you know that reversal of time was not enough to stifle her, in the end.
"I'm doing what I can, though. I stopped by your Apartment, earlier--Mami-san tried to convince me not to Wish, but she eventually actually started talking to me. She's very proud, but I think I understand her, a bit. She really seems to want to hide from herself, and something took that away from her."
You nod, a bit unnerved by the openness. This kind of honesty is not something you were entirely ready for, and you were certainly not ready for the same from Madoka.
"Yes, that's right. Mami doesn't fight for others, like she wants to think. She fights for herself--to justify her survival, to win friends by saving them, to convince herself she's a better person than she is. If we want to stabilize her, even until Walpurgisnacht, our only options are to keep her from losing her illusions, or keep her alive long enough that she can make peace with herself."
Madoka listens, frowning, "But what about after? Even if we keep her from Witching until Walpurgisnacht, there's no way she'll hold it off forever. She knows who she is, after all--she'll either deny that until it's taken from her, then Witch, or she'll eventually break under the truth. Those...aren't solutions."
You grimace, shaking your head, "I think there's a real chance she'll eventually be able to accept herself as she is."
Madoka gives you a sad look, almost pitying, "I don't think so, Homura. She's too good a person, for that."
"She's not as good as she wants to be. She should--"
"But she is!!!" Madoka stands up violently, hands on the table, "She's got a flaw she doesn't like, she's got feelings she hates, but she wouldn't want to fix them if she weren't a good person! If we want to help her, we should help her!"
This. This is why Madoka is hard to work with. Even when she's confused and scared, she's stubborn, but when she's resolved? It's like fighting the tide.
Luckily, you've made a life of doing that kind of thing.
"It's not that simple, Madoka. Even if people want to change, sometimes they just can't. Or just don't. I'm not even sure if it's poss--
'The Magician.' Kyouko interrupts, reminding you of your words to Igor, before.
You cut off with a sigh, palming your face as you lean back, "It's not easy, Madoka. It takes years of struggle and sacrifice. It's not something you can just do for someone over the course of a few weeks."
She frowns and crosses her arms, sitting down and thinking for a few moments, "...But it could be. If people really have such a hard time changing for the better, then I could--"
Dammit, Madoka. "I'm not sure Wishing to change an aspect of human nature is the solution to Mami's problem. The rest of the human race might take issue."
She shrugs, "I think it would be okay, as long as I worded it right. Making it easier to become better than it is to become worse would be better for the entire world."
"You only get one Wish, Madoka. Is that the hill you want to die on?"
She sits quietly for a bit longer than you'd like, and you begin to worry she might actually do it, but eventually she shakes her head, "No. It should be up to them, shouldn't it?"
She sighs heavily, pulling out a notebook and jotting something in it. You look at her quizzically, and she explains, "Wishes, and what's wrong with them. Just to keep track." She closes it and puts it back away, "I still think you're wrong about Mami, though. She doesn't need to really change before Walpurgisnacht, she just needs to believe she can. I can do that."
You...you don't really know what to do against her.
"...I can't stop you, can I?"
She shakes her head, and you sigh, "I won't try to stop you, Madoka, but everything might fall apart if you mess up. You're playing with fire here."
She nods, smiling weakly, "I know...but, if I'm going to help you, I need to try to do the things you can't, and you can't believe in Mami anymore, can you?"
You kind of miss your hallucination, sometimes. She's...simpler. More reasonable.
She can't compare to the real thing, though.
"Alright, then. You help Mami. I've got a lot to do anyway." You concede. Even if you might have to step in, eventually, you can give her a chance.
You're supposed to be working together, this time. If you're going to do that, you should tell her everything, like you said you would before. Even the craziness with Kyouko and Igor.
You can't be sure what she'll do with that, or how she'll react, but...you already told her about the loops. What's a little more?
[ ] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
[ ] Try to keep some control. Give her partial information. She might not realize.
-[ ] Write-In what to withhold.
[ ] Don't trust her. Tell the very minimum. She'll probably realize.
"So, did everything go okay with the boss?" Daisuke asks, apparently wanting a second opinion on the issue.
You think it over. You did not accomplish anything important here--you have, at best, found a new point to search for others of the 15 from, you have not acquired weapons or knowledge useful for battling Walpurgisnacht, and you have not developed relationships with any of the 15. You also didn't do anything to protect your friends during this time. It's been a worthless trip.
In spite of that, you find yourself satisfied with knowing that Takeshi Akemi, while a failure as a clockmaker, is not a failure as a father. You should have given him a chance a long, long time ago.
You're glad you did it now. There are not many loops left. If your end arrives soon, you will be glad to go knowing your father isn't your enemy, even if you're still a bit unsure about him.
"It went well, I think." You say no more on the matter.
Daisuke nods, smiling, "I'm glad. Well, let's get you home." He leads you to his car and holds the passenger-side door for you. You take your seat and buckle the belt, allowing him to close the door before walking around the car. He takes the seat beside you with cheer. "Seat buckled?" He asks, apparently ignoring the obviously buckled seat belt crossing your chest.
You kind of want to put a bullet in his brain.
"Yes."
He puts the car in gear, and begins driving.
...
Soon enough, the two of you reach the Mikis', and you disembark. Daisuke waves at you briefly before departing, and you return the favor half-heartedly.
You flick the lock open, and step inside, "I'm back!" There's no one there to answer, of course--the Mikis will both be playing SAO right now, so you're alone.
"Welcome back!"
Or so you thought. Instead, the entire room seems to brighten in an instant as you step into the kitchen and find an unexpected guest.
Sitting at the kitchen table, working on her laptop, is one Madoka Kaname.
She turns to you as you enter, smiling brightly, "Hey there, Homura-chan! I came over to visit, but found those two logged into SAO. I guess I should have guessed that, wehihi! It's okay, though--I've had a key for years, and I know they won't mind me hanging around for a while, so I thought I'd stick around until you got back."
You find yourself smiling as you take a seat across from her, "It's good to see you again."
Her smile softens, "You too, Homura-chan. I've been doing a lot of thinking since I saw you last time. I...I'm not sure how much I can do to help, like this."
You know. She won't be able to wait forever. Sooner or later, she will Wish--because that's the kind of person she is.
She's not passive. You've tried to force her to be, before, but it always failed in the end. In the face of Walpurgisnacht, she will always return to being that girl you met the first time.
The one who, faced with disaster, used herself up to stop it.
She will pierce through you if you're in the way. She'll surpass the walls you raise before her. You've seen her at the limit, and you've seen her walk right through it.
There's no changing her nature, when it shows itself.
Pink Steel.
You can remember those eyes, now. You don't know what that memory was, before, but you can see it, and it's only natural, you think.
What else would she become, if she had all those years to grow?
The girl across the table from you doesn't look so different from that other Madoka right now. You hadn't wanted to see it before--the way she had changed, since you're first loop. What used to be lurking somewhere deep has been rising, ever so slowly, and now it's just a hairsbreadth from the surface.
As she looks at you, smiling that warm smile, you know that reversal of time was not enough to stifle her, in the end.
"I'm doing what I can, though. I stopped by your Apartment, earlier--Mami-san tried to convince me not to Wish, but she eventually actually started talking to me. She's very proud, but I think I understand her, a bit. She really seems to want to hide from herself, and something took that away from her."
You nod, a bit unnerved by the openness. This kind of honesty is not something you were entirely ready for, and you were certainly not ready for the same from Madoka.
"Yes, that's right. Mami doesn't fight for others, like she wants to think. She fights for herself--to justify her survival, to win friends by saving them, to convince herself she's a better person than she is. If we want to stabilize her, even until Walpurgisnacht, our only options are to keep her from losing her illusions, or keep her alive long enough that she can make peace with herself."
Madoka listens, frowning, "But what about after? Even if we keep her from Witching until Walpurgisnacht, there's no way she'll hold it off forever. She knows who she is, after all--she'll either deny that until it's taken from her, then Witch, or she'll eventually break under the truth. Those...aren't solutions."
You grimace, shaking your head, "I think there's a real chance she'll eventually be able to accept herself as she is."
Madoka gives you a sad look, almost pitying, "I don't think so, Homura. She's too good a person, for that."
"She's not as good as she wants to be. She should--"
"But she is!!!" Madoka stands up violently, hands on the table, "She's got a flaw she doesn't like, she's got feelings she hates, but she wouldn't want to fix them if she weren't a good person! If we want to help her, we should help her!"
This. This is why Madoka is hard to work with. Even when she's confused and scared, she's stubborn, but when she's resolved? It's like fighting the tide.
Luckily, you've made a life of doing that kind of thing.
"It's not that simple, Madoka. Even if people want to change, sometimes they just can't. Or just don't. I'm not even sure if it's poss--
'The Magician.' Kyouko interrupts, reminding you of your words to Igor, before.
You cut off with a sigh, palming your face as you lean back, "It's not easy, Madoka. It takes years of struggle and sacrifice. It's not something you can just do for someone over the course of a few weeks."
She frowns and crosses her arms, sitting down and thinking for a few moments, "...But it could be. If people really have such a hard time changing for the better, then I could--"
Dammit, Madoka. "I'm not sure Wishing to change an aspect of human nature is the solution to Mami's problem. The rest of the human race might take issue."
She shrugs, "I think it would be okay, as long as I worded it right. Making it easier to become better than it is to become worse would be better for the entire world."
"You only get one Wish, Madoka. Is that the hill you want to die on?"
She sits quietly for a bit longer than you'd like, and you begin to worry she might actually do it, but eventually she shakes her head, "No. It should be up to them, shouldn't it?"
She sighs heavily, pulling out a notebook and jotting something in it. You look at her quizzically, and she explains, "Wishes, and what's wrong with them. Just to keep track." She closes it and puts it back away, "I still think you're wrong about Mami, though. She doesn't need to really change before Walpurgisnacht, she just needs to believe she can. I can do that."
You...you don't really know what to do against her.
"...I can't stop you, can I?"
She shakes her head, and you sigh, "I won't try to stop you, Madoka, but everything might fall apart if you mess up. You're playing with fire here."
She nods, smiling weakly, "I know...but, if I'm going to help you, I need to try to do the things you can't, and you can't believe in Mami anymore, can you?"
You kind of miss your hallucination, sometimes. She's...simpler. More reasonable.
She can't compare to the real thing, though.
"Alright, then. You help Mami. I've got a lot to do anyway." You concede. Even if you might have to step in, eventually, you can give her a chance.
You're supposed to be working together, this time. If you're going to do that, you should tell her everything, like you said you would before. Even the craziness with Kyouko and Igor.
You can't be sure what she'll do with that, or how she'll react, but...you already told her about the loops. What's a little more?
[CENTER OF THE MIND]
Time: 4:17:11 P.M.
Date: Sunday, March 20th
Grief: 174/1000
Sanity: 356/1000
Stability Multiplier: 2.0
Time: 4:17:11 P.M.
Date: Sunday, March 20th
Grief: 174/1000
Sanity: 356/1000
Stability Multiplier: 2.0
[ ] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
[ ] Try to keep some control. Give her partial information. She might not realize.
-[ ] Write-In what to withhold.
[ ] Don't trust her. Tell the very minimum. She'll probably realize.
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Maybe I'm tired or maybe it's just my lack of big social brain, but I'm kinda lost here.
What I understand so far is that Homura thinks Mami is incapable of change, but thinks Mami can learn to live with herself.
Madoka thinks Mami can change, but if she doesn't she's doomed to witch out. Also kinda seems to think that Mami isn't a good person.
I'm kinda lost at the moral absolutionist stances(or at least Madoka's seems so). Why is Mami fighting for herself bad? Why would fighting for herself invalidate her from being a good person? What exactly does Madoka want to do about the situation? Why isn't Mami involved in this discussion? Is this secretly a meta discussion about the differences between Homuficer and Madokami's worldviews? Why does Madoka always use magic to solve her interpersonal issues with her friends? Why does she never think out the consequences of using said magic to solve interpersonal issues? What is a man besides a miserable pile of secrets?
- Location
- Somewhere
Hm...tough choices here. I'm with Keldin a little in that the Mami discussion between Madoka and Homura kinda lost me a bit. At one very brief point it seemed like they were both arguing the same thing without actually realizing they were. But then again, I never really learned social interactions as well as I should have for reasons. I like it here under my rock.
As for the vote, I seem to recall it being stated somewhere that we need to take risks in order to get the golden ending. And keeping information from Madoka has never worked in canon, so why should it work here? From Homura's point of view, its a risk, but I think it'll ultimately help in the long run if we tell her about the craziness we've run into. Just...let's do a quick check for Kyubey to make sure we're not giving him information we are not yet sure we want him to know.
[X] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
As for the vote, I seem to recall it being stated somewhere that we need to take risks in order to get the golden ending. And keeping information from Madoka has never worked in canon, so why should it work here? From Homura's point of view, its a risk, but I think it'll ultimately help in the long run if we tell her about the craziness we've run into. Just...let's do a quick check for Kyubey to make sure we're not giving him information we are not yet sure we want him to know.
[X] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
- Location
- The End of Glory
[X] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
Mmm... I think its almost a "Can you change the nature of man" argument. Homura is saying you can't and Mami either needs to delude herself or learn to live with herself and Madoka is saying you can, even if she needs help to overcome those aspects.
And then Homura is just too tired to give a shit about Madoka using a Wish to change humanity and just bludgeons her over the head with valid points to make her not make that Wish in the future.
As for the vote... Mind you that we're giving Madoka ammo for her Wish. She's probably going to realize at some point, like Homura already has ingrained into her, that this Loop isn't going to succeed, so the possiblity that she makes a Wish centered around Homura to try and help her, for a very large potential definitions of "help," is more than a little high. So... *Shrug*
And then Homura is just too tired to give a shit about Madoka using a Wish to change humanity and just bludgeons her over the head with valid points to make her not make that Wish in the future.
As for the vote... Mind you that we're giving Madoka ammo for her Wish. She's probably going to realize at some point, like Homura already has ingrained into her, that this Loop isn't going to succeed, so the possiblity that she makes a Wish centered around Homura to try and help her, for a very large potential definitions of "help," is more than a little high. So... *Shrug*
- Location
- Somewhere
Yes, this is giving Madoka ammo for her wish, but really, the entirety of the universe in which Madoka exists seems to be built around giving girls ammo for making wishes, both ill-thought out and well thought out but ultimately going sideways varieties. Madoka already knows Homura's a time traveler, and even if we keep this information secret, she's eventually going to realize things can't work out this loop as well and make a wish centered on Homura or Homura's time traveling to fix things. We even have some hints already that such a wish is what happened in the previous loop, resulting in the weird things we are encountering this time around.
With these things in mind, I still think its a risk worth taking. The more brains working on the problems of the crazy crossover world to try and find a solution to keeping everyone alive and happy, the more likely we are to find it, provided we are willing to listen to the people that do end up thinking up the solution.
Edit: Making an edit here as its still the same topic and response and thus I don't feel like it would be right to add this as a new post after Dantalion's.
Going back to telling Madoka is giving her ammo for her wish, I'd like to point out it could also very well give her a different outlet for her self-sacrificing to help others nature. Yuuko's shop is within the list of weird things we have to tell Madoka about if we're going to share them with her. Making a wish with Yuuko is preferable to making a wish with Kyubey due to Yuuko at least being upfront about her pricing, even if she can be very vague at times. There's also the possibility of Nanoha managing to re-establish contact with the TSAB, which could potentially open up another source of magic for fighting Witches to Madoka. And we have no idea what other weird things are going to come up over the course of the loop as well. Perhaps we'll encounter a Pretty Cure or find out one or two of our Madoka cast are actually reincarnated Sailor Senshi.
Lastly, there's also the possibility that Madoka not knowing about this stuff is going to give her ammo for a wish if she ever encounters it. And without fore knowledge on just how out of wack these things showing up is, she'll have no capability to properly think out potential consequences of her wish, especially if it ends up being made in the heat of the moment.
In closing, yes telling Madoka will give her ammo for making a wish. Not telling her will also give her ammo for a wish when she encounters any of these strange things on her own. Telling her could also open doors to other avenues of fulfilling her helping others nature that doesn't involve removing her soul.
With these things in mind, I still think its a risk worth taking. The more brains working on the problems of the crazy crossover world to try and find a solution to keeping everyone alive and happy, the more likely we are to find it, provided we are willing to listen to the people that do end up thinking up the solution.
Edit: Making an edit here as its still the same topic and response and thus I don't feel like it would be right to add this as a new post after Dantalion's.
Going back to telling Madoka is giving her ammo for her wish, I'd like to point out it could also very well give her a different outlet for her self-sacrificing to help others nature. Yuuko's shop is within the list of weird things we have to tell Madoka about if we're going to share them with her. Making a wish with Yuuko is preferable to making a wish with Kyubey due to Yuuko at least being upfront about her pricing, even if she can be very vague at times. There's also the possibility of Nanoha managing to re-establish contact with the TSAB, which could potentially open up another source of magic for fighting Witches to Madoka. And we have no idea what other weird things are going to come up over the course of the loop as well. Perhaps we'll encounter a Pretty Cure or find out one or two of our Madoka cast are actually reincarnated Sailor Senshi.
Lastly, there's also the possibility that Madoka not knowing about this stuff is going to give her ammo for a wish if she ever encounters it. And without fore knowledge on just how out of wack these things showing up is, she'll have no capability to properly think out potential consequences of her wish, especially if it ends up being made in the heat of the moment.
In closing, yes telling Madoka will give her ammo for making a wish. Not telling her will also give her ammo for a wish when she encounters any of these strange things on her own. Telling her could also open doors to other avenues of fulfilling her helping others nature that doesn't involve removing her soul.
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Dantalion
Insight: 368
- Location
- A Guest Room at the Brass Embassy, dying of Frenzy
- Pronouns
- Any
So first off, Madoka doesn't believe that Mami isn't a good person - on the contrary, she believes that Mami is too good to be willing to just accept her flaws.
Fighting for oneself isn't bad per se, but Mami has built herself around being a selfless guardian of the people... and she isn't. We're not fighting an objective view of being a good person, we're fighting Mami's view of being a Good Person, and one of the things that she sees as Good is being selfless, and vice versa - if being selfless is Good, then being selfish must be Bad. This wouldn't be such an issue if she weren't a Meguca, and thus one bad day away from madness at pretty much all times.
What Madoka wants is to help Mami fix what Mami perceives are flaws - the specifics of that she hasn't quite worked out, but she's got a decent INT stat and a Wish, so surely she can come up with something. And even if convinced that using her Wish to change people is not quite right, she still wants to help, because she is selfless.
Why isn't Mami involved in a discussion about fixing herself, one in which using direct personality modification is on the table? ...Mostly because of the last part, I suppose. Even in the case that such doesn't get used, it's easier to help someone if everyone's on the same page prior to the intervention. Keep in mind this isn't a discussion on 'here's what we're going to try to change about Mami', it's 'I want to help Mami, I'm going to help Mami, are you willing to help me help Mami?'
Is it a meta-discussion? Maybe. Amusingly, they appear to have taken up each other's positions if it is.
Madoka's willingness to use magic stems from her own low self-esteem issues - she feels she can't help much on her own, but she has one 'do any one thing' option and a reasonably high INT. The natural response is always going to be 'come up with a cleverly worded wish that solves the problem at hand'. Thinking out the consequences of such is something that very few are good at - everything is connected to everything, and trying to solve people is complicated enough without throwing in magic.
As for the nature of man, I believe we've spoken enough on the topic. Shall we engage in our duel?
satisfied with knowing
Delete "in".
She'll
alive long enough
Delete "don't".
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
[X] Trust her. Tell her everything. You know she'll do her best, but it's hard to predict more.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
It's been like 1000 years, but... hi. It's good to see this timeline is still here.
More productively, even after rereading the whole quest before posting this, I forget- does our Homura have the inkling it's Madoka's wish last loop that may have made things go a bit more worn through the fabric of reality than before, or however we think it is? Just, curious to wonder if whatever we tell Madoka may have her contemplating the same question, of 'mildly confusingly unexpectedly world-perturbing-type' ways to help Homura on this journey, rather than more direct effect but not necessarily helpful 'i mean i could change the nature of humanity, that could help?' type of wish.
Also we still haven't resolved much of anything about the large number of black cats around- uhm.
Hey so we have some empty slots for uh, what were we calling them- memory meguca?
**checks**
Memento Meguca, that's it. And they must be familiar to us, not the crossover mess. Hnnnnnnnnnnn, need to make a better blue when not on mobile at work, but-
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is the entity we, the players who vote on this main character Akemi Homura's actions, would call 'Amy' (or any variation on 'Amy the cat' or 'Amy Percival Venticus Akemi'); the black cat whom Madoka in many timelines wishes to save the life of after said cat gets hit by a car. The instance of this 'Amy' who may be a Memento Meguca may not necessarily be a cat or purely a cat.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is closely related to 'Amy' as defined in the above blue truth, and yet not included on the list of: Kaname Madoka, Sakura Kyouko, Miki Sayaka, Tomoe Mami, Kure Kirika, Mikuni Oriko, Chitose Yuma, Momoe Nagisa, Shizuki Hitomi.
The reason the 'large number of black cats' (as defined in previous blue truths by me, and overheard discussion about in the ice cream shop) and the catlike entity with blue-gold eyes that Homura saved from a car in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, are hostile towards Madoka and Homura has to do with the truthiness of the first two blue truths of this post.
The not-yet-elaborated-upon-by-Higure-in-a-red-truth sentiments of 'the entity to which the otherwise unattributed tuft of black fur found at Mami's apartment belongs' toward Madoka and Homura are related to the truthiness of the first two blue truths of this post.
'The entity to which the otherwise unattributed tuft of black fur found at Mami's apartment belongs' is an entity we, the players, would recognize as some instance of 'Amy' as defined in the first blue truth of this post.
... whenever I come back to this quest I always get concerned/sidetracked by the cats.
... edit: is it just me or has Homura literally been in this timeline like four days. that's...... a lotta happen, yeesh.
edit:
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is the girl corresponding to the entity referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is an instance of the girl referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are Meguca that we, the players, have only seen as Witches in what we refer to as the 'canon' PMMM TV show and the Rebellion movie.
None of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are or usually comprise the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'.
We, the players, would not refer to or recognize any two-or-more of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca as 'different instances or versions of the same person'.
I'm done editing in new truths to this post now I swear. I just have a lotta thoughts after rereading all this after all this time.
-[X] Make sure we don't have any unwanted listeners before explaining things.
It's been like 1000 years, but... hi. It's good to see this timeline is still here.
More productively, even after rereading the whole quest before posting this, I forget- does our Homura have the inkling it's Madoka's wish last loop that may have made things go a bit more worn through the fabric of reality than before, or however we think it is? Just, curious to wonder if whatever we tell Madoka may have her contemplating the same question, of 'mildly confusingly unexpectedly world-perturbing-type' ways to help Homura on this journey, rather than more direct effect but not necessarily helpful 'i mean i could change the nature of humanity, that could help?' type of wish.
Also we still haven't resolved much of anything about the large number of black cats around- uhm.
Hey so we have some empty slots for uh, what were we calling them- memory meguca?
**checks**
Memento Meguca, that's it. And they must be familiar to us, not the crossover mess. Hnnnnnnnnnnn, need to make a better blue when not on mobile at work, but-
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is the entity we, the players who vote on this main character Akemi Homura's actions, would call 'Amy' (or any variation on 'Amy the cat' or 'Amy Percival Venticus Akemi'); the black cat whom Madoka in many timelines wishes to save the life of after said cat gets hit by a car. The instance of this 'Amy' who may be a Memento Meguca may not necessarily be a cat or purely a cat.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is closely related to 'Amy' as defined in the above blue truth, and yet not included on the list of: Kaname Madoka, Sakura Kyouko, Miki Sayaka, Tomoe Mami, Kure Kirika, Mikuni Oriko, Chitose Yuma, Momoe Nagisa, Shizuki Hitomi.
The reason the 'large number of black cats' (as defined in previous blue truths by me, and overheard discussion about in the ice cream shop) and the catlike entity with blue-gold eyes that Homura saved from a car in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, are hostile towards Madoka and Homura has to do with the truthiness of the first two blue truths of this post.
The not-yet-elaborated-upon-by-Higure-in-a-red-truth sentiments of 'the entity to which the otherwise unattributed tuft of black fur found at Mami's apartment belongs' toward Madoka and Homura are related to the truthiness of the first two blue truths of this post.
'The entity to which the otherwise unattributed tuft of black fur found at Mami's apartment belongs' is an entity we, the players, would recognize as some instance of 'Amy' as defined in the first blue truth of this post.
... whenever I come back to this quest I always get concerned/sidetracked by the cats.
... edit: is it just me or has Homura literally been in this timeline like four days. that's...... a lotta happen, yeesh.
edit:
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is the girl corresponding to the entity referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is an instance of the girl referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are Meguca that we, the players, have only seen as Witches in what we refer to as the 'canon' PMMM TV show and the Rebellion movie.
None of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are or usually comprise the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'.
We, the players, would not refer to or recognize any two-or-more of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca as 'different instances or versions of the same person'.
I'm done editing in new truths to this post now I swear. I just have a lotta thoughts after rereading all this after all this time.
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TheBleachDoctor
Secretly a Cat
- Location
- The Plane of Infinite Kittens
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wehihihi
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Welcome back! Happy to see you here!
I'm not sure if it's been explicitly stated along the way, but Homura's definitely aware of the possibility.
The entity we, the players who vote on this main character Akemi Homura's actions, would call 'Amy' (or any variation on 'Amy the cat' or 'Amy Percival Venticus Akemi'), the black cat whom Madoka in many timelines wishes to save the life of after said cat gets hit by a car, is not one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca. The instance of this 'Amy' who may be a Memento Meguca may not necessarily be a cat or purely a cat.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is closely related to 'Amy' as defined in the above blue truth, and yet not included on the list of: Kaname Madoka, Sakura Kyouko, Miki Sayaka, Tomoe Mami, Kure Kirika, Mikuni Oriko, Chitose Yuma, Momoe Nagisa, Shizuki Hitomi.
I will not answer at this time.
I will not answer at this time.
'The entity to which the otherwise unattributed tuft of black fur found at Mami's apartment belongs' is an entity we, the players, would not recognize as some instance of 'Amy' as defined in the first blue truth of this post.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is the girl corresponding to the entity referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
One of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is an instance of the girl referred to as 'Elsa Maria' in the sidestories.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are Meguca that we, the players, have only seen as Witches in what we refer to as the 'canon' PMMM TV show and the Rebellion movie.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are or usually comprise parts of the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'.
We, the players, would not refer to or recognize any two-or-more of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca as 'different instances or versions of the same person'.
Those were some tough ones. Well done.
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mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
Glad to be here!
Clarification- that's two "I will not answer at this time" replies that seem to cover three blues? Should all three be taken to be answered the same way, or...?
..... oh boy. Welp, that's a state of things. I was only asking to try and solidly disprove that one! Anyone more, uh, familiar, with how to go tracking this one down?
... also- based on your reds and a thought-
Let us define 'the Kitten Witch' as the witch(es) mentioned by Kyouko in "Theater Witch 1 | Manifestation [Theater Witch Library]".
Let us define 'Abigail' as the witch Kyouko fights in "Witch-Hunting" parts 1-3.
Let us define 'Amy' and 'the large number of cats' as in prior blue truths by me.
The Kitten Witch and Abigail are in some way connected in a fashion beyond: their association with cats/kittens in general, their location, the person known for fighting them, or their status as being witches.
The Kitten Witch is connected to Amy in some fashion beyond: their location, and their association with cats/kittens in general.
Abigail is connected to Amy in some fashion beyond: their location, and their association with cats/kittens in general.
The Kitten Witch had/has some association with the large number of black cats.
Abigail had/has some association with the large number of black cats.
The Kitten Witch had/has some connection to the blue-gold eyed catlike entity Homura saved in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, beyond their general association with cats.
Abigail had/has some connection to the blue-gold eyed catlike entity Homura saved in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, beyond their general association with cats
The Kitten Witch has some connection to one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca beyond any general associations such as being associated with cats or being a witch in this present timeline.
Abigail has some connection to one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca beyond any general associations such as being associated with cats or being a witch in this present timeline.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are or usually comprise parts of the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'; none of these are on the list of: Kaname Madoka, Sakura Kyouko, Miki Sayaka, Tomoe Mami, Kure Kirika, Mikuni Oriko, Chitose Yuma, Momoe Nagisa, Shizuki Hitomi.
Exactly one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is or usually comprises part of the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'.
Let us define 'Abigail' as the witch Kyouko fights in "Witch-Hunting" parts 1-3.
Let us define 'Amy' and 'the large number of cats' as in prior blue truths by me.
The Kitten Witch and Abigail are in some way connected in a fashion beyond: their association with cats/kittens in general, their location, the person known for fighting them, or their status as being witches.
The Kitten Witch is connected to Amy in some fashion beyond: their location, and their association with cats/kittens in general.
Abigail is connected to Amy in some fashion beyond: their location, and their association with cats/kittens in general.
The Kitten Witch had/has some association with the large number of black cats.
Abigail had/has some association with the large number of black cats.
The Kitten Witch had/has some connection to the blue-gold eyed catlike entity Homura saved in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, beyond their general association with cats.
Abigail had/has some connection to the blue-gold eyed catlike entity Homura saved in front of Madoka and Sayaka this loop, beyond their general association with cats
The Kitten Witch has some connection to one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca beyond any general associations such as being associated with cats or being a witch in this present timeline.
Abigail has some connection to one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca beyond any general associations such as being associated with cats or being a witch in this present timeline.
Some of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca are or usually comprise parts of the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'; none of these are on the list of: Kaname Madoka, Sakura Kyouko, Miki Sayaka, Tomoe Mami, Kure Kirika, Mikuni Oriko, Chitose Yuma, Momoe Nagisa, Shizuki Hitomi.
Exactly one of Akemi Homura's Memento Meguca is or usually comprises part of the entity we, the players, would call 'Walpurgisnacht'.
Really do tell me if I get carried away with these.... it always just seems like we're so close to some kind of Very Definitive Information if only we drilled a bit deeper...
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Dantalion
Insight: 368
- Location
- A Guest Room at the Brass Embassy, dying of Frenzy
- Pronouns
- Any
Picture Walpurgisnacht as a katamari...
More seriously though, this implies that either Walpy is going to need to be Social'd, or we've got to Social some gucas before they Witch and get absorbed. Though given that Walpy usually doesn't even make landfall until the very end of the loop, I haven't the foggiest idea of how said potential Megucas would be reachable to have been true companions. Walpurgisnacht, on the other hand... one could hardly refuse our eternal opponent a place as a true companion, for if she doesn't count, who else possibly could (Madoka excepted, obviously)?