Project: Create a Fantasy on-par with Modern Warfare

Mustapha Mond

World Controller, Western Europe
The goal of this thread is to create a Medieval Fantasy nation with capabilities such that it can fight an even war with the modern United States (say they invade with magic portals or something), while still remaining a very recognizably medieval fantasy nation. So, the aesthetics and culture are what you'd expect, but they have haxy enough magic, enough resources and territory, and tough enough units to fight the modern United States as a peer power. Also, we're trying to be creative, so don't just be lazy and give them modern equipment with a medieval fantasy coat of paint.
 
Idea: a type of magic that isn't limited by distance, but instead attacks people based on shared characteristics, think the Arithmeticians from Final Fantasy Tactics, could be quite bad for an army that relies on diffusion of force and standardized mass-produced equipment.
 
What about enchanted plate armour? Depending on what kind of Fantasy you have, everyone having some kind of enchanted plate armour still keeps fantasy asthetics of some more fantasy setting.

I mean, Plate armour evolved in real life to deal with guns. It's just guns beat armour in the end. In a magical setting where you have to say deal with magical bows or some kind of magical monster? If this makes bullet proof armour as a side effect, then on an infantry level you'd have issues.
 
Magic armor and weapons are a must obviously, but there should also be some way for warriors to generally enhance their power. I'm thinking they absorb the energy produced when someone is killed, and their soul leaves the material plane, and that this can rapidly get them up to the level of ripping apart tanks single-handed.

Also, the magic super-materials should have a superdense variant they can use, so they don't get thrown backwards too far by things like tank cannon hits.

Scrying and precognition to match things like spy satellites and radar would probably also be necessary.
 
and that this can rapidly get them up to the level of ripping apart tanks single-handed.
I mean, also? While Magical Bullets and Magical Guns would probably take a lot of work and need to work against magical armour as a thing, so the fantasy world hasn't invented guns?

Magical melee weapons and magical bows and arrows would be a thing. So the sidearm of a sword would be enchanted to be able to deal with the magical armour, along with Warhammers and spears and so on. As well as the same for bows and arrows. So you could probably have someone cutting through tank armour with their magical weapons, or taking out a tank with a magical bow of say a longbow or crossbow.
 
A knight or noble's coat-of-arms can be used for magic which involve their noble status / the social hierarchy.

A knight bearing the crest of their house can draw from the collective strength of those who owe allegiance to it, and possess great strength as a result. Sir Starshine the elf has 10,000 people who pay taxes to him, & needs to chuck a boulder at something? He can draw a small amount of their strength - a quarter pound or less from each, with diminishing returns as the number he's drawing on increases - and throw it with some effort.

From the other direction, soldiers who hold up their banner can gain some of their strength, skill, or other traits. Dame Ironhammer's wearing superheavy full plate, and is leading a peasant militia dressed in layers of clothes? Those peasants might actually be as armored as if they were in lamellar or something, since their banner gives each individual the average of their armor and Dame Ironhammer's.

There's some limitations though - the banner has a limited range, so block formations are incentivized, and the lord (or a high-ranking representative of them) has to be active on the battlefield so they can't just keep their heroes at home while the peasants do the fighting.
 
So the problem is never going to be armor or big boom, fantasy has equivalents to both already.

The problem is going to be communications, information, logistics, and numbers.

Modern warfare is heavily predicated on near-instant communication loops, an awareness of the battlespace that at times beggars the imagination, resource availability that simply isn't possible without industrialization, and quantities of forces beyond anything prior centuries could dream of.

Communications is a relatively easy fix, stuff like the linkpearls from FFXIV substitutes for radio quite well. Battlespace awareness can be mostly kludged with scrying magic, though it's still worse than modern technological equivalents because of the difficulties in sharing that information. Resource availability and numbers is where it just stops working though. There is no way for a medieval society to arm and armor hundreds of thousands of troops. Hell, there's no way for them to even feed that many troops. Most will struggle to feed that many people in one place, period.

You can mostly match modern military equipment for capability with magic, but the industrialized society will always have more. More people, and more stuff. Because that's what industrialization does.
 
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because of the difficulties in sharing that information.
Telepathy and precognition are the answers there.


but the industrialized society will always have more.
Unless the fantasy side can literally conjure stuff into existence out of nothing, and/or teleport it where they need it. Think the Protoss from StarCraft.

You could also have a quality vs quantity dynamic with two factions, or the fantasy kingdom could rule multiple plains of existence or have pocket dimensions full of farms and foundries.
 
Telepathy and precognition are the answers there.
Still not good enough due to the absence of computers. It's close-ish, but technology is pretty unbeatable on that front without straying past the medieval aesthetic.

Unless the fantasy side can literally conjure stuff into existence out of nothing, and/or teleport it where they need it. Think the Protoss from StarCraft.
Unless they can do it with any old high school dropout, they're still at a disadvantage against an industrial society. If my sixteen year old moron can match the output of your Ph D holder, you have a problem.

You could also have a quality vs quantity dynamic with two factions, or the fantasy kingdom could rule multiple plains of existence or have pocket dimensions full of farms and foundries.
Total production is less important than spare production, and spare production is dictated by efficiency. Industrial societies are more efficient. The medieval society needs ten times the number of people to get the same amount of total work done, and thus has ten times the cost, meaning that the medieval society has less to spare, meaning the medieval society needs more like twenty times as many people to match what the industrial society can throw at war.

Meanwhile, in reality, the industrial society is the one with the larger population, by about a factor of twenty.
 
Still not good enough due to the absence of computers.
Eldar farseer level precog.

Unless they can do it with any old high school dropout,
Okay, they can do that.


meaning the medieval society needs more like twenty times as many people to match what the industrial society can throw at war.
Okay, they control an empire of hundreds of different worlds
 
What we mean by "medieval"
We're using "medieval" kind of loosely. If they've got knights, castles, feudalism, gothic architecture, and have pre-modern tech that's supplemented heavily with magic, it counts. So, interdimensional empires a la the combine are fair game, as long as travel between worlds is accomplished via magic. The ability to create vast amounts of resources easily is fair game, as long as they still have regular farms for some reason, maybe they need to "connect to the earth" for their magic to work or something.

Edit: tech doesn't have to be strictly pre-modern, crazy clockpunk is alright, hitting the right aesthetic is really the main thing.
 
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Also, we don't need to go the "making stuff out of nothing" route, they could just teleport stuff in from other worlds, or just trade with modern forces in battle at a thousand to one.
 
Invisibility is overpowered in the context of modern warfare, and it's a fantasy staple, so that's a major and incontestable advantage. Just make sure it works against IR vision.

"Portals Anywhere" is a recurring ability for fantasy antagonists that modern militaries would have trouble dealing with. It's both a delivery/extraction mechanism for deep raids (which the modern side could mitigate but only at great cost) and a one-size-fits-all logistics solution.

Resurrection/Instant Reincarnation/Respawn means the modern side can't win an attrition contest; the fantasy army can potentially just trade their lives away as canon fodder in the original sense until the modern army runs out of ammunition. Summoned monsters can fill the same role.

Speaking of summoned monsters, tamed or summoned intelligent birds could fill some of the same roles as light drones, but they're immune to electronic warfare. Spells to see through a bird's eyes are a common trope.
 
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Just make sure it works against IR vision.
On that note, aura sensing, i.e. sensing life or spirit itself would be useful, as it wouldn't be limited like IR is.

Also, I like my idea of having magic that effects things based on attributes like in FFT, but how do you keep that from being too overpowered? We don't want them to just be able to cast spells that blows up every piece of a certain type of ammunition or something.

We already established that THEY are the ones who are outnumbered.
Sorry, I meant trade at one to a thousand.

Inefficient. Wasteful. Not viable.
How do you know that? We're literally making this up as we go.
 
We're using "medieval" kind of loosely. If they've got knights, castles, feudalism, gothic architecture, and have pre-modern tech that's supplemented heavily with magic, it counts.
Okay, I'm unpacking this into the essentials.

Knights: Professional warrior-elite, heavily equipped, with a squad of personally loyal subordinate men-at-arms and support personnel. Also, they hold some civil authority on behalf of their lord.

Castles: Fortified residential complexes meant to be easily held over a period of weeks at a severe numerical disadvantage, but also able to house a large enough force to contest raids against the surrounding countryside. They may also have administrative or governmental functions.

Feudalism: Loose federated government based on recursive personal trust and loyalty. Authority is conferred lord-to-subject, and the subjects are the lords of others, such that any given lord (above the bottom level) has personal control over only a minority of the territories they rule.

Pre-modern tech: Sharply limited by fabrication technique and energy sources. Machines are simple and either muscle-powered or driven directly by wind or water mills. Objects are of types that can either be hand-fabricated or cast from molten metal. Production of most things is labor-intensive.

Supplemented heavily with magic: This is an energy source and fabrication technique at once, so scratch that limit. Lack of complex machines are an aesthetic choice moreso than a practical one, because for any machine it's conceivable that a magic spell could do the same thing.

Do you disagree with any of that?
 
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Okay, so how does all that translate into a fantasy super-army?

Castles are an easy starting point: They have magical force-fields that are impossible to breach through physical force alone. Nukes can cause flash-burn injuries to the defenders and start fires, but that's more of a nuisance than a real threat unless the US is willing to spend hundreds of nukes trying to melt the place. Capture of a castle is only possible by dispelling the force-field (which requires magic) or by capturing the other end of its resupply portal (which may be in a similarly-fortified hub) or by convincing the defenders to lower the force-field voluntarily.

Knights are next: They get to use super-powerful magical artifacts that enhance their personal fighting ability. They get to collect and trade them for synergy. Under the principle that "for any machine it's conceivable that a magic spell could do the same thing", a knight could for example fly at supersonic speeds, wield a magical weapon with an attack spell that causes similar levels of destruction to a one-ton bomb (though not using explosions as a medium), and also have magic armor that can withstand the shrapnel cloud from any standard surface-to-air missile, all without the logistical footprint of a conventional bomber aircraft. But that's only one possible configuration, another knight might be an invisible speedster who cuts tanks in half, or a scry-and-die raider. However they equip themselves, they're extraordinarily dangerous for something available at the squad level.

Knights' retinues don't get the same level of equipment, but they can be chosen for combat-useful magical talent. Whether that's buff spells, scrying, telepathy or just hellish firepower, they form a capable combat squad that also makes their knight more dangerous.
 
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Castles are an easy starting point
Hmm, I'd probably go with castles being made of something like the black stone of Orthanc, and say the Force fields are for really important things. Nukes might potentially damage this material, but it's not a sure thing. Tactical anti-nuke defense would mainly be spells that shoot them down, force them off course, or even teleport them back where they came from.


I like all this, but I would go with big dragons for hypersonic flight, and a general lack of heavy air support for the fantasy side, with things like homing spells from wizards for anti-air capabilities.

Here's a little blurb on the different types of magic I dreamt up for this. This is just me spit-balling, and can be revised as needed. All fantasy humans (henceforth "fumans") can learn these, and even more than one at a time.

So, the first types of magic I'm giving the placeholder name "Death Magic." There is power in death. When something dies, especially something intelligent, something leaves this world, and something else enters. This something else can be consumed by those with the right training, and used to enhance their strength, body and soul. This is the magic used by warriors and knights. It's based not only on kills, but martial skill and experience. Knights tend to be those strong in this magic, and typically gain their knighthoods based on their martial prowess. This means that for people to earn, and even lose knighthoods is more common than it was in real life, and knights have to ensure their sons are raised to be skillful and useful to the crown in order to safeguard their birthright. Fortunately for them, it is possible for this power to be passed down from parent to child, though the child will have to "re-cultivate" it somewhat. However, this, combined with the great wealth and fine equipment that knights tend to have, means that an intelligent and conscientious knight house can secure their future fairly easily.

This magic grants enhanced physical abilities, including, but not limited to, enhanced strength, speed, durability, agility, senses,perception, and reflexes, as well as battle precognition (similar to Jedi), a danger sense (like spidey sense), a healing factor, and spiritual senses like the ability to sense the spiritual auras of living things. More advanced techniques include more esoteric abilities such as summoning swords of spiritual energy to strike opponents from afar, the ability to harm opponents on a spiritual level, short range "flash-step" teleportation, phasing, and much more.

There is a power in the simple things of life, a job well done, a meal well made, a field well tilled, a life well lived. The wise can hold this power in their spirit, and then project to out into the world in constructive endeavors. This is the principle what I'm giving the placeholder name "Simple Magic." This is the simplest to learn, but the hardest to master. It's the most common work-a-day magic that most ordinary people know at least a bit of to help with cooking, cleaning, farming, healing wounds, dulling pain, and other simple tasks. At the higher levels though, this magic forms the basis of advanced area healing spells, and the creation of powerful magic tools and weapons. The greatest masters of this art use it to forge weapons capable of summoning storms, striking down mountains, and splitting the seas.

Before the birth of creation and its myriad realms, the creator of space-time itself, a powerful god, was struck low. His blood was scattered throughout many universes, where it congealed and hardened into a substance called Rift Stone, made not of ordinary matter, but microscopic rifts in space-time itself. This substance is the basis of the two magics that follow, which I'm calling (for now) Alien Magic, and Thought Magic.

Alien Magic is achieved by taking Rift Stone, grinding it into a very fine powder, and then injected traces of it into your own body over the course of your entire life. The basic technique of Alien Magic is to open conduits to other planes of existence, containing totally different laws of nature and spiritual powers. One then draws on the power of these other realms to perform a variety of powerful, and bizarre feats. This is the most "Wizardly" magic that does all the flashy and versatile stuff. Over time, use of Rift Stone in this way corrupts the body. This corruption follows four stages, that progress depending on the speed at which the mage progresses their skills.

In stage 1, the user is uncorrupted, and appears quite normal. This stage tends to last from 2 to 20 years.

In stage 2, the user grows deathly pale, and they develop permanent dark bags around their eyes which begin to sink into their skull, and glow with a purple light, the user's hair also tends to grow longer, and begin to billow in unseen breezes. This stage tends to last from 20 to 30 years.

In stage 3, the eyes have completely sunken into globes of fire, and cracks that show a window into a brilliant night sky begin to appear all over the user's skin. The hair transforms similarly to these cracks, and now permanently waves, like a slow flame, or a flag. Most users die from their bodies failing after just 3 to 15 years, but a rare few see their bodies adapt to the changes, and progress to the final stage.

In stage 4, the mortal body is completely gone, and the wizard has become a pure living crack in reality itself. In this stage, users are often so powerful that merely being in their presence is dangerous, and thusly they withdraw from public life into research. After a few decades of this, they invariably withdraw into a pocket universe of their own creation, and devote themselves to the contemplation of infinity, gradually losing all contact with civilization.

Thought magic is developed differently. Instead of injecting Rift Stone into the veins, it is baked like charcoal, and burned similar to incense. The fumes are then breathed in over a long period, granting those who breath them vastly expanded mental powers (similar to mentats from Dune), as well as incredibly telepathic abilities. Allowing them to coordinate activities across realms. It is possible to learn both Alien Magic and Thought Magic, but it is highly dangerous, and many who try see their bodies and minds tear themselves apart.

The final, and most difficult form of magic is Arithmancy. It draws its power from the Monad, the metaphysical source of all mathematics. Arithmancers dedicate decades to contemplation of the Monad, and all branches of mathematics. Eventually, they can develop powers that shame all the other magics in their sheer scope, manipulating mathematics itself to warp reality with no regard for the limitations of space and time.
 
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There have been multiple threads on this subject:

forums.sufficientvelocity.com

What would a high fantasy magical system specifically designed as a hard counter to 21st century technology look like in your view?

I already made similar threads to this idea: https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/what-would-be-effective-against-a-modern-military-but-not-a-medieval-military.116004/...


forums.sufficientvelocity.com

How could a premodern fantasy world avoid colonization from industrialized nations?

The idea of a modern-day person going to a fantasy land is very common in Japanese media. There is even an anime called Gate: Thus the JSDF Fought There where a portal is opened into Japan and a medieval fantasy army invades downtown Tokyo. They cause damage until the Japanese military chases...

The best way to even the playing field without forgoing the medieval aesthetic is to prevent the modern military from using their advantages.
 
There have been multiple threads on this subject
This is a little different, as it's less "let's float ideas on magical counters to tech", and more "let's world build something very specific for fun."

Honestly, since magic can do anything we say it can, the real trick is hitting a balance where cool and fairly even fights can actually occur.
 
The capabilities central to modern warfare force also enable and coexist with organizational and doctrinal evolution which leads you to something like modern warfare.

The alternative people are suggesting with tactical nuclear precognitive wizards and superpowered champions would also not result in a "medieval fantasy nation" because they would create drastically different conditions and thus result in drastically different societal and political organizations. Why would you have feudalism when your wizard only needs food enough for one person and a big library? You don't need the interlocking system of lesser nobles to create enough surplus, you just need to read more.
 
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