City numbers in general also reduce the Yeoman actions.
Their actions are tons of things we want, and want a lot of, like build roads and forests.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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Their actions are tons of things we want, and want a lot of, like build roads and forests.
-Politicization of the priesthood.
--Been there done that, we've already established them as a parallel system with a strong tradition to maintain it that way.
--The HK serves as a convenient counterexample
-The religion growing outside our influence due to Sacred Forest being THE religious core. Freeing it allows them to go unchecked
--Alternative cores have sprung up, Prophet's Home, Dragon's Graveyard. Freeing it now pulls the religious center back home.
-Temporal power should be kept out of the priesthood as a precedent
--They have their own stat track and actions already. The Patricians in Sacred Forest are liable to be more careful about preventing the priests from becoming Governors.
Quite different. The cities have power, but as we've already seen with Mass Levy, no city can keep it up without the rest of the country backing it. Theres too many people to sway.
The Marches would also increase expansion and ultimately cause drift
ThrawnCA
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Thinking it through again, you're right, even in the first turn it's slot-neutral. It's an unrefunded cost followed by a gain that doesn't cost slots, but it never lowers slots.
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No arguments on the storm ymaryn vs forluch but, we know from the past turn that the harmony of man refers to stability not marriage with neighbors
Oh and we seriously is not a democracy, except if you consider oligarchy as democracy.
Sorry but what??
We are not because we fear THEM but we think in some ways it will lead to bad consequences for us which is different
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ThrawnCA
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I didn't see that in the overview?
We can compensate by repeating some of their actions, which will get more of their actions done and will increase their faction power to give them a bigger slice of the province action pie.
My concern about that is, the yeomen don't like cities, and cities are mechanically awesome, especially with markets, so giving the yeomen power is very two-edged.
@Academia Nut How much will completing faction quests influence the faction's likelihood of conforming to the King's Agenda (if at all)? Is it feasible to develop a working relationship with a faction, where we regularly prioritise their quests and they typically throw their influence behind us?
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As a side note, another good reason for a political marriage with the Storm Ymaryn is that we may be able to pull them into our war with the Highlanders, by essentially using their military like we did the Trelli's mercenary companies against the Khemetri. This should also stop any risk of them going to war with Freehills, which could cause complications due to the Games.
Having an in with the Storm Ymaryn royal family could be very useful for us, particularly as like the last royal marriage it starts up as a tradition of intermarriage between Ymaryn and Storm Ymaryn traditions, as we have significant advantages over them when it comes to both propagating and maintaining our values, and we can also take deliberate actions to preserve or promote them that a normal state would be incapable of.
Having an in with the Storm Ymaryn royal family could be very useful for us, particularly as like the last royal marriage it starts up as a tradition of intermarriage between Ymaryn and Storm Ymaryn traditions, as we have significant advantages over them when it comes to both propagating and maintaining our values, and we can also take deliberate actions to preserve or promote them that a normal state would be incapable of.
It's...
Dam it, it's not in the threadmarked one, is it?
It was something along the lines of Provinces/2-True Cities for their faction actions.
It was also stated that AN was looking to see about an infrastructure project to increase their power, but no one could think of one from what we have and none was mentioned.
Expand Economy, Build Roads, Expand Forest, Build Watchtowers.
That alone we want every one done at least once a turn. Expand Economy probably twice a turn.
That's 5 actions.
The rest of their actions are very nice and things we want too. We can't really make enough of an impact there.
BungieONI
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Right, and with Mylathadysm and the Independent Priesthood value a good chunk of these concerns are no longer an issue. Its basically going full on their independence and letting them self-equibrilate. Which I can dig. We may have to break up a few fist fights, but we know how to do that.
How are they going to send their forces to us?
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ThrawnCA
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Ah, thanks. So converting a true city to free city basically gives them an extra action, along with the guilds. The old power vs control trade-off.
Well, typically infrastructure happens in cities, and cities are the enemy of farms...
I would particularly like to put forests on repeat, because of the quirky mechanics, where we lose Econ initially but gain more next turn. That makes it awkward to use ad hoc, but just fine if we're using it every turn. And it actually increases LTE by 1, which would be a very useful drip to have.
Watch Towers are in one sense a great candidate because they're very cheap, but we actually wouldn't need many double mains to reach full coverage. 7 main actions will do it, costing just 7 Econ.
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As an addendum to my previous point, now they have cheap iron for their farmers and regular soldiers, and steel for their elites, the Storm Ymaryn should be exploding our north and west into Europe. With that that happening, we really want to strengthen the Ymaryn characteristics of the Storm Ymaryn as much as possible, as despite their flaws, like slavery, they'll be the best vector we have to carry our virtues to the rest of the world, and the shared cultural heritage and connections should make it much easier for us to persuade them to minimise the suffering their flaws cause, as well as suffering in general, than whoever else wouldrule those regions.
Given Ymaryn prestige - we're literally the Kings of the Hill, the most prestigious polity that's possibly ever existed. They're probably going to want to emulate us anyway, and regular intermarriage with our upper classes should should them how to do that properly. The model I'm thinking of is similar to the conversion of Europe being facilitated by the Christian wives of 'barbarian' kings.
An independent priesthood makes it much more of a concern. Previously, when the priests were part of the state it was still a problem, but a less bad one. Making them independent massively complicates the issue.
Sail down the river from their core on riverine craft, disembark and then re-emmark at Greenshore's docks, and then disembark at Gullvalley's and march up to the Highland Kingdom. We have sufficient shipping on the Ymaryn Sea to unlock bulk shipping of commodities, so we can transport armies. Remember, we're currently trading iron ore with them, so we have a huge amount of sea lift in this theatre. In terms of travel time, both for messages and armies, the Storm Ymaryn should be much closer to the Ymaryn core, and the Highland Kingdom, than places like the Thunder Horse or even the great majority of Txolla are.
Given Ymaryn prestige - we're literally the Kings of the Hill, the most prestigious polity that's possibly ever existed. They're probably going to want to emulate us anyway, and regular intermarriage with our upper classes should should them how to do that properly. The model I'm thinking of is similar to the conversion of Europe being facilitated by the Christian wives of 'barbarian' kings.
An independent priesthood makes it much more of a concern. Previously, when the priests were part of the state it was still a problem, but a less bad one. Making them independent massively complicates the issue.
Sail down the river from their core on riverine craft, disembark and then re-emmark at Greenshore's docks, and then disembark at Gullvalley's and march up to the Highland Kingdom. We have sufficient shipping on the Ymaryn Sea to unlock bulk shipping of commodities, so we can transport armies. Remember, we're currently trading iron ore with them, so we have a huge amount of sea lift in this theatre. In terms of travel time, both for messages and armies, the Storm Ymaryn should be much closer to the Ymaryn core, and the Highland Kingdom, than places like the Thunder Horse or even the great majority of Txolla are.
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no offence but despite its feasibility, its really messy and tiring.Unlikely they will send help and go through that tenous process
BungieONI
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I assume this still applies.
@Academia Nut, can the Storm Ymaryn help us by sending military forces to fight the Highlanders with us?
How is it messy and tiring? Thanks to the rivers and the sea, the Storm Ymaryn are closer in practical terms to the Highland Kingdom than they will be to their own vassals. That's how much better travelling by boat is than overland in this era.
That was when we were only at war with the Forhurch. They truly are too far away - it probably takes twenty or thirty times longer to get an army from the Storm Ymaryn core to the Thunder Horse than it does to get it to the Highland Kingdom. The Storm Ymaryn were, IIRC, also at war with a rebellious vassal at the time. Freehills literally has a border with the Highlands Kingdom, for example.
Remember that parts of the Ymaryn Core are further away from the Highland Kingdom in practical terms than the Storm Ymaryn Core is.
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I would prefer to repeat one more manual action and cede passive to,like, Infra or defensive or Diplomacy or Vassal Support.
Nothing comes for free. To get such a benefit, we would have to invest a fucking lot of resources to spread values. We don't have time or resources. Hell, we do not even have all of our values in our own subordinates and even colonies.
You know how our colonies, the ones starting with 100% Ymaryn culture, drifted away to the point of almost breaking away? Or notice how Txolla, despite centuries of closeness, only Ymarynized their elites, and even that is relatively recent.
Yes, we technically can leverage this opening into spreading our values - but as we have not even spread our values perfectly well into our own subordinates, there is no reason to believe we really can do so. We have way, way too many other obligations and things to do.
So if you have in mind anything worth dropping over this, honestly, very long term resource-intenstive commitment, go ahead and say which of our ongoing projects are unimportant. Otherwise, marriage with SY is a waste of opportunity because we have no followup.
ThrawnCA
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Yeah, forestry is really worth doing with repeated actions instead of a passive. Besides being faster, the action is LTE-positive and includes study.
Better to use passives for things where we get a really good deal, like the defensive and infrastructure policies saving us several stats and an action each time.
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Sure. Problem is, we get all of 4 or so actions to work with, so even 1 repeated (and we need 2 - roads and forests) is a major pain. Repeated Forests are better than Forestries, but we have more passives than active actions.
ThrawnCA
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We can repeat yeomen actions, turning them into double mains. It's just that there are side effects, particularly increasing their faction power.
I'm unclear whether that allows us to specify which action they should repeat, or whether they just get a double main of whatever they want. But if they get a faction power boost, that probably means the crown has input on what they're actually doing.
The fun part is that we should have enough passives available for all of the above.
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We can't, anymore. Faction actions are now Main for secondary cost.
ThrawnCA
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Some thoughts on the proposed new government:
- Cities will be very powerful. True Cities give us an action, but block a Yeomen action; Free Cities give the guilds an action and add a passive policy. Both are very potent.
- Far more passive policies (one for every province). Picking the best mix will be key to success.
(I don't think we need a whole lot of stat drips, partly because we'd soon hit caps and overflow into Martial, and partly because the factions are likely to use their half of the passives to get stats relevant to themselves. However, there are several policies that are great for eg maintaining cities; we can stack on the infrastructure policies more than ever.)
- Our working relationship with the factions can easily double our strength, or halve it. With repeated actions, we can get a whole lot of mileage out of any faction, if we can trust them with the power. Conversely, if they're mad, they can block and hijack most of our regular activities.
(I would love to work closely with the patricians. All things considered, they really haven't behaved too badly, and they have a great deal of influence over the other factions, as well as being able to take any non-king action. If we can regularly scratch each other's backs, the other factions will largely fall in line.)
- Cities will be very powerful. True Cities give us an action, but block a Yeomen action; Free Cities give the guilds an action and add a passive policy. Both are very potent.
- Far more passive policies (one for every province). Picking the best mix will be key to success.
(I don't think we need a whole lot of stat drips, partly because we'd soon hit caps and overflow into Martial, and partly because the factions are likely to use their half of the passives to get stats relevant to themselves. However, there are several policies that are great for eg maintaining cities; we can stack on the infrastructure policies more than ever.)
- Our working relationship with the factions can easily double our strength, or halve it. With repeated actions, we can get a whole lot of mileage out of any faction, if we can trust them with the power. Conversely, if they're mad, they can block and hijack most of our regular activities.
(I would love to work closely with the patricians. All things considered, they really haven't behaved too badly, and they have a great deal of influence over the other factions, as well as being able to take any non-king action. If we can regularly scratch each other's backs, the other factions will largely fall in line.)
Cultural diffusion to neighbouring states should be basically automatic. We trade with them continually. It's not something that state actors would be involved in, or even would be possible to arrange with this level of cultural sophistication. Once we've opened the door to influencing their elites like this it should also continue automatically. It's something that happens both above and below the levels that states can directly take actions to control.
We can influence it by keeping trade flowing, and symbolic steps like this to encourage intermingling of the elites, along with things like investing in things that makes Ymaryn a better and more successful nation, but they're things we want to do anyway. You don't invest resources to spread values. Your values spread because you invest resources in things that make people want to emulate you. Stopping it is something you have to invest resources to do, as the Highland Kingdom did.
For example the Eastern Roman Empire's government didn't need to take direct action to create the ideal of Rome in the peoples of the Rus. This is the same thing.
Looking at the the People's colonies, they almost broke away because they lost economic dependence, not because of cultural splits. The Storm Ymaryn are closer in real terms to the Core than Txolla has ever been, as the Ymaryn Sea is like a super-canal.
tl;dr: Yes it comes for free.
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Stat drips have been implied from AN to have a chance of triggering Symphony in some way. The exact ways and effects of triggering Symphony continue make it one of our biggest black box values.
Also many factions gain more faction actions through various infrastructure. I expect them to use a lot of infrastructure passives for the most part, with the possible exception of the Yeomen.
I'm okay with working with the patricians, but I don't want them to become a runaway power.
I suggest putting watchtowers on repeat first to get that out of the way before focusing on road.
If you want to start terraforming on a large scale, we should industrialize, build mills and do more charcoal production.
That either mean growing our existing Free Cities, or focusing on generating TC, and we need TC in our march to generate their own wealth to fund their own cavalry forces and armies.
And yet it is not free even in our eastern colonies. Thunder Horse and Toxalla explicitly do not have most of their population Ymarynized. Creating a cultural ideal is one thing, that is the City on the Hill legacy, actually diffusing values and culture is quite another.
ThrawnCA
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Well, maybe it's worthwhile for Tech.
I am 100% OK with factions doing infrastructure passives and us having to plan around that.
I hear you. It's just that the only way they lose power is by going against what we want. Which, maybe they'll do a lot, but I'd like to come to an understanding and get them on side.