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Paths of Civilization

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DocMatoi said:
Additionally, our religion is what helps to secure our beneficent traits, and what sets us apart from other polities of the time period.
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Too high RA is still bad, because Priests can be....well, just look at what they told us to do at low Prediction rolls during plague: cleanse, purge, expel, and so on.

PrimalShadow said:
There is nothing saying that Dangerous actions can't be useful, if used in moderation. In fact, we should be happy to see the Yeomen using New Settlement to start, since presumably they would be targeting Internal Reorg and thus getting us closer to whatever reward we get for completion there. Similarly, we should be moderately happy to see another Temple from the Priests, assuming that it is actually a Lvl3 temple (which would give us an extra action).

The trouble starts if the action is used more often than we would like - and that is a problem because we don't control our factions directly and can't just tell e.g. the Priests to stop building Temples because it is making the priesthood too prestigious.
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Agreed. IMO, solutions are more Palaces and more Academies. Which are both things we want to build, it's just a lot of work and, say, Academies require Libraries (probably enhanced by Great Library) and Palaces, uh, Roads and Free Cities I guess.
 
ctulhuslp said:
＞ advantage goes to defender

Unless its nomads. Cant defend.shit, excel in offense.
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Point of order: at least some nomads "defended" their lands via Scorched Earth tactics. They've got huge but unproductive tracts of land and rarely value anything in a particular area, so their ability to retreat while flipping you off and turning everything behind them to ash and poison is almost inexhaustible.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Technically, yes; practically, no. Academies do help with RA, but they are an incredibly expensive way to address the issue. Basically, to offset a single Temple worth of RA, we need to build an Academy, and then two Libraries to offset the mysticism-refund-reduction.
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Hm. If we can build libraries in academies, it actually works out pretty interestingly - we build a temple with RA gain, an academy to compensate for it and libraries in them to compensate for mysticism refund. Great for a good theology and philosophy.
 
Kiba said:
Don't forget that concrete is essential to unlocking the Grand Harbor megaproject(which AN says is at least doable) and the Harbor EP.
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Yes, that is indeed an opinion held by some.


Ancient Harbors:
Cothon - Wikipedia
Relevant Article:
The Harbours of Carthage on JSTOR

Breakwaters, an Artificial Protective Surround:
Breakwater (structure) - Wikipedia

Jetties, which serve innumerable purposes.
Jetty - Wikipedia

Most of these use a negligible amount of concrete. Some forms of jetties use quite a bit of concrete, but even then the style using timber beams were and are more common. At least in modern times, however, such jetties tend to use steel-cored, concrete-wrapped pilings/pylons.

Historically, the use case that we would most likely prefer to use concrete for tended to use clay/rubble bases, according to wikipedia. That might have been a result of concrete being lost, however. And I don't know enough of roman harbors to say.
 
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Faction Overview: Guilds

Faction Ability
Adds half of faction power to Max Wealth. A weak but useful ability, increasing the stat cap for one of the stats that needs it most.

Dangerous Actions
{S} EP - IRONWORKS: -3 Econ, -3(+1) Tech, adds +1 Econ and -1 Tech to the Expand Economy action*

*The Expand Economy action is our best way to generate raw stats right now, but it is hampered by the need to overflow from Econ to other stats. Adding a Econ payoff for a Tech cost to the action only exacerbates the problem. It ALSO moves us closer to being screwed if we even stop having full Culture and Mysticism to arrange overflows into Tech.

Expensive Actions
BUILD CERAMIC KILNS: -3 Econ, -4(+1) Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, +1 Wealth, +7 Culture, increased chance of new innovations x2
INCREASE CEMENT PRODUCTION: -2 Econ, -8 Wealth, -3(+1) Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects
MORE WARSHIPS: -3 Econ, -10 Wealth, -3 Martial, +1 Tech; +2 Naval, additional effects
ART PATRONAGE: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, higher chance of innovations x2
SUPPORT ARTISANS: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2
PLANT CASH CROPS - TEXTILES: -5 Econ, -5 LTE, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo, +1 Culture, +1 {Econ+LTE} next turn, other effects
STUDY METAL: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -1(+1) Mysticism, improved chance of new insights x2

Wonderful Actions
EFFICIENT CHARCOAL KILNS: -2 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, -3 Sustainable Forest used, other effects
BUILD DOCKS: -2 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Diplo, potential for new innovations x2, increased trade power
{S} EP - SALTERN: -3 Econ, -3(+1) Tech, extra Wealth produced, +0.5 Wealth/turn



Summary
The Guilds are going to be a major problem. Thanks to the recent Half-Exile reform, a massive swathe of otherwise terrific actions has been shifted to being unaffordable, leaving the Guilds with precious little to do that we would actually approve of. Furthermore, the iconic Guild Extended-Project happens to be Ironworks, which is currently terrible mechanically. And this is all made worse by the fact that our Guild Economy basically garauntees that Guilds get a bunch of actions.

There is not much we can do about this, other then hope that after our next Ironworks the effect will be shifted towards something that is mechanically useful instead of detrimental.
 
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agumentic said:
Hm. If we can build libraries in academies, it actually works out pretty interestingly - we build a temple with RA gain, an academy to compensate for it and libraries in them to compensate for mysticism refund. Great for a good theology and philosophy.
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And probably works towards a better grand temple, this time more focused on a School of Theology style. Sankoré Madradah style, would tie in nicely to our debate style theology.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
Point of order: at least some nomads "defended" their lands via Scorched Earth tactics. They've got huge but unproductive tracts of land and rarely value anything in a particular area, so their ability to retreat while flipping you off and turning everything behind them to ash and poison is almost inexhaustible.
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Fair enough. Correction: they are shit at defending static location/positions.

PrimalShadow said:
Faction Overview: Guilds

Faction Ability
Adds half of faction power to Max Wealth. A weak but useful ability, increasing the stat cap for one of the stats that needs it most.

Dangerous Actions
{S} EP - IRONWORKS: -3 Econ, -3(+1) Tech, adds +1 Econ and -1 Tech to the Expand Economy action*

*The Expand Economy action is our best way to generate raw stats right now, but it is hampered by the need to overflow from Econ to other stats. Adding a Econ payoff for a Tech cost to the action only exacerbates the problem. It ALSO moves us closer to being screwed if we even stop having full Culture and Mysticism to arrange overflows into Tech.

Expensive Actions
BUILD CERAMIC KILNS: -3 Econ, -4(+1) Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, +1 Wealth, +7 Culture, increased chance of new innovations x2
INCREASE CEMENT PRODUCTION: -2 Econ, -8 Wealth, -3(+1) Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects
MORE WARSHIPS: -3 Econ, -10 Wealth, -3 Martial, +1 Tech; +2 Naval, additional effects
ART PATRONAGE: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, higher chance of innovations x2
SUPPORT ARTISANS: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2
PLANT CASH CROPS - TEXTILES: -5 Econ, -5 LTE, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo, +1 Culture, +1 {Econ+LTE} next turn, other effects
STUDY METAL: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -1(+1) Mysticism, improved chance of new insights x2

Wonderful Actions
EFFICIENT CHARCOAL KILNS: -2 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, -3 Sustainable Forest used, other effects
BUILD DOCKS: -2 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Diplo, potential for new innovations x2, increased trade power
{S} EP - SALTERN: -3 Econ, -3(+1) Tech, extra Wealth produced, +0.5 Wealth/turn



Summary
The Guilds are going to be a major problem. Thanks to the recent Half-Exile reform, a massive swathe of otherwise terrific actions has been shifted to being unaffordable, leaving the Guilds with precious little to do that we would actually approve of. Furthermore, the iconic Guild Extended-Project happens to be Ironworks, which is currently terrible mechanically. And this is all made worse by the fact that our Guild Economy basically garauntees that Guilds get a bunch of actions.

There is not much we can do about this, other then hope that after our next Ironworks the effect will be shifted towards something that is mechanically useful instead of detrimental.
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I am, like, 70% sure dealing with Ironworks tech cost is gated behind "enough academies to start wide (for time period) scale education programs for artisans".
Ofc they cost too much to take manually most of the time and Infras would rather build more Block Housing or whatnot.

Also, however horrifically expensive Cement is, we must take it a couple of times.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Also, however horrifically expensive Cement is, we must take it a couple of times.
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Sure. But the fact is, we want to careful about when and how we take it, because it requires a tremendous amount of resources. That is the criterion I used to assign it to the "Expensive" and not the "Wonderful" category.

To put it a different way. Most of the time, our Guilds surprising us by building an extra Efficient Kiln would be met with cheers. On the other hand, the Guilds surprising us with Cement would be met by some combination of cheers and the sound of gritting teeth as all manners of carefully made plans were completely pulverized.

ctulhuslp said:
I am, like, 70% sure dealing with Ironworks tech cost is gated behind "enough academies to start wide (for time period) scale education programs for artisans".
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Maybe. But the point remains: right now, ironworks add an effect to one of our regularly-taken actions which trades away a more valuable stat (Tech) for a less valuable stat (Econ) at a 1:1 ratio. Furthermore, lack of Tech production and soaring Tech consumption is forming a looming crisis that can badly screw us if we stop being able to overflow to Tech, which makes Ironworks even worse. I think it unquestionably deserves to go in the Dangerous column.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Sure. But the fact is, we want to careful about when and how we take it, because it requires a tremendous amount of resources. That is the criterion I used to assign it to the "Expensive" and not the "Wonderful" category.

To put it a different way. Most of the time, our Guilds surprising us by building an extra Efficient Kiln would be met with cheers. On the other hand, the Guilds surprising us with Cement would be met by some combination of cheers and the sound of gritting teeth as all manners of carefully made plans were completely pulverized.
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Yep.

PrimalShadow said:
Maybe. But the point remains: right now, ironworks add an effect to one of our regularly-taken actions which trades away a more valuable stat (Tech) for a less valuable stat (Econ) at a 1:1 ratio. Furthermore, lack of Tech production and soaring Tech consumption is forming a looming crisis that can badly screw us if we stop being able to overflow to Tech, which makes Ironworks even worse. I think it unquestionably deserves to go in the Dangerous column.
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Again, no disagreement.
 


We are still the final boss right? Crow is with us!

Some other pics I found.
















If we ever get a Mystic/Culture Genius then they should write The Book of Crow. An epic telling of the history of Crow. Everything from his appearance to his epic battles against demons and dragons. It would also tell the tales of the other gods, the creation of the Ymaryn and it's Heroes, and the lessons Crow teaches.

---

Bonus. An awesome picture of a Warrior of Crow. Maybe they will be a unit in the future?

 
@Academia Nut out of curiosity, is there any crossover between the upper classes?

Like, can a Patrician also be a Guildmaster, or a Trader?
I know that the upper class, or at least the Traders, intermarry with the Patricians semi frequently, but is there any societal expectations that would stop a Patrician from going into the Guilds and becoming a Guildmaster?

If so, would said Patrician still be considered a Patrician, or would they then have loyalties with Guilds, or is it a thing that differs with every person?

Edit: Also, if there is crossover, how often does it occur?
Is it seen as something super rare, or as something relatively common?
 
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Raichu1972 said:
@Academia Nut out of curiosity, is there any crossover between the upper classes?

Like, can a Patrician also be a Guildmaster, or a Trader?
I know that the upper class, or at least the Traders, intermarry with the Patricians semi frequently, but is there any societal expectations that would stop a Patrician from going into the Guilds and becoming a Guildmaster?

If so, would said Patrician still be considered a Patrician, or would they then have loyalties with Guilds, or is it a thing that differs with every person?

Edit: Also, if there is crossover, how often does it occur?
Is it seen as something super rare, or as something relatively common?
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As far as I could tell, our high level guild masters are Patricians, they just have more connections among the guilds then in bureaucracy. You can't control the guild without political skill and network of influence, and that's what a Patrician is.
 
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Kiba said:
We are probably putting off roadbuilding projects until the government upgrade because we just found out that it won't have any impact on centralization tolerance.
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I resent this proposal.

We are at 21 roads right now. We would not receive any tolerance with a Main Roads anyway. Next Tolerance would have been at 24.

This is all aside from the fact that we still need those roads, regardless of loss of Tolerance.
 
WeaponX1023 said:


We are still the final boss right? Crow is with us!

Some other pics I found.
















If we ever get a Mystic/Culture Genius then they should write The Book of Crow. An epic telling of the history of Crow. Everything from his appearance to his epic battles against demons and dragons. It would also tell the tales of the other gods, the creation of the Ymaryn and it's Heroes, and the lessons Crow teaches.

---

Bonus. An awesome picture of a Warrior of Crow. Maybe they will be a unit in the future?

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Some of these might be ravens. I assume that we as a culture hate and fear them.
 
Sivantic said:
I resent this proposal.

We are at 21 roads right now. We would not receive any tolerance with a Main Roads anyway. Next Tolerance would have been at 24.

This is all aside from the fact that we still need those roads, regardless of loss of Tolerance.
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OK, you're right. But I would like to complete the dam+canal and various infrastructure projects ASAP.
 
Sivantic said:
I resent this proposal.

We are at 21 roads right now. We would not receive any tolerance with a Main Roads anyway. Next Tolerance would have been at 24.

This is all aside from the fact that we still need those roads, regardless of loss of Tolerance.
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Maybe we can eat a subsidiary for road, we get some wealth that way right? Just a thought, and Heaven Hawk looks really tasty, all that gold and iron. =w=
 
I am not interested at all in integrating/propagating the Heaven's Hawks until we either research gunpowder or complete the triangle canal. We cannot afford any more exposure to the Steppes.
 
Rakuhn said:
I am not interested at all in integrating/propagating the Heaven's Hawks until we either research gunpowder or complete the triangle canal. We cannot afford any more exposure to the Steppes.
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We will complete the triangle canal, but I am not interested in integrating the HH especially since the wealth would only be temporary and that we are gain wealth income from their gold and salt mine.
 
Rakuhn said:
I am not interested at all in integrating/propagating the Heaven's Hawks until we either research gunpowder or complete the triangle canal. We cannot afford any more exposure to the Steppes.
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Making two more Marches to cover ourselves would technically be more exposure to the steppes, but I think doing that would be rather prudent if we get the opportunity. (North and Northwest are listed as March candidates)

Aside from that I agree, we have no desire to integrate/propagate the Heaven's Hawks. The lowlands are where we're going next.
 
notgreat said:
Making two more Marches to cover ourselves would technically be more exposure to the steppes, but I think doing that would be rather prudent if we get the opportunity. (North and Northwest are listed as March candidates)

Aside from that I agree, we have no desire to integrate/propagate the Heaven's Hawks. The lowlands are where we're going next.
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I agree.
The TS March wouldn't be more exposed, afaik.

One near WW would be, but it's what, the diameter of a circle v the radius*pi?
 
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So, speaking of marches, any clue on what the name will be? I kinda hope it's not a "Boring Ymaryn Name" but other than that I have no clue.
 
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