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Paths of Civilization

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In addition to invading the HK next turn can we try and figure out what is up with our underworld, not only is knowing generally useful it's also important so we know how to deal with the HK nobility that may have been screwing with us.
 
PrimalShadow said:
While it would be absolutely lovely to have subordinates putting out fires for us, subordinates are not general purpose problem solvers. This wouldn't be so bad, since we do have classes of problems that could use continuous work, but sadly we only have a narrow range of subordinates available and they don't particularly align with what we need done.

Take a look.
Mercenary Company: Military Activity (both offense and defense) anywhere within reach of our supply lines. Force Projection by being lent out to enemies-of-our-enemies.
March: Fortification of a territory, defensive military activity there, offensive military activity in the area, some help with military activity depending on distance, infrastructure in the territory - roughly in that order.
Trading Post: Taking over a territory, building fortifications/infrastructure, and extensively interacting with the neighbors.
Colony: Continuously expanding to new territory and building fortifications/infrastructure there.

So. If our problem was that we more war missions, a mercenary company could help out; they can take over doing war missions for us. If our problem was that we needed to expand in some way (either make a defensive territory, start forming a presence in faraway lands, or just expand nonstop), a March/Trading Post/Colony would be grand. But for anything else, subordinates aren't really a help.

In particular, what I'd really like to do now is build up. Make roads, do study actions, increase stability, product stats, that kind of stuff. And none of the afore-mentioned subordinates actually do any of that. or rather they do it, but on new territories, which can't be called putting out fires.

If we had any of the following subordinates, I'd support starting them up in a heartbeat:
Road Crew - Takes a New Trails every turn when under Yellow centralization. Builds Walls otherwise.
Performing Company - Does a Festival Action each turn.
Trading Company - Sends two secondary trade missions each turn.
etc.

Really, anything that acts on land we already have and our own stats. Unfortunately, such subordinates are not available, which is why I think the current value of new subordinates is limited.



There is one think missing from the above, as I'm sure you noticed: Free Cities. Unlike the other subordinate classes, this one DOES act purely domestically, by granting us free passive policy uses and a Culture drip. For that reason, I fully support the creation of multiple Free Cities when possible. The only problem is that of all our subordinates, this is the one we can't just decide to make. A pity.
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Agreed on wanting some free cities.

I think you're underselling subordinates in two ways though:
  • Diplomancy. Trade Missions put out fires before they start, and let us know about fires in time to prepare.
  • Innovation. Much of our innovation has come from subordinates. Greenshore, most notably, has spent 24 secondary actions on things with innovation rolls, and is responsible for most of our ship tech and some a significant amount of our Mill tech. We fully expect a ton of innovation from a NTP too.
So, basically, I want some military subordinates so we have to spend less actions putting out military fires. (Note that last time I checked we've spent significantly more actions on war than megaprojects to date; reducing this load is a big deal.)

I want a trading post or two, because the one we let grow to maturity gave us a lot of research and scouting, which are both necessary for us to build up.

I want 2-3 free cities, so we have more passive policies.
 
PrimalShadow said:
There is one think missing from the above, as I'm sure you noticed: Free Cities. Unlike the other subordinate classes, this one DOES act purely domestically, by granting us free passive policy uses and a Culture drip. For that reason, I fully support the creation of multiple Free Cities when possible. The only problem is that of all our subordinates, this is the one we can't just decide to make. A pity.
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I have wonderful news for you: we can. It costs a secondary action, and we just need to have non-capital true cities.

Found Free City - Cities are hard to manage, giving them increased autonomy to manage themselves will reduce administrative overhead.
 
pblur said:
Agreed on wanting some free cities.

I think you're underselling subordinates in two ways though:
  • Diplomancy. Trade Missions put out fires before they start, and let us know about fires in time to prepare.
  • Innovation. Much of our innovation has come from subordinates. Greenshore, most notably, has spent 24 secondary actions on things with innovation rolls, and is responsible for most of our ship tech and some a significant amount of our Mill tech. We fully expect a ton of innovation from a NTP too.
So, basically, I want some military subordinates so we have to spend less actions putting out military fires. (Note that last time I checked we've spent significantly more actions on war than megaprojects to date; reducing this load is a big deal.)

I want a trading post or two, because the one we let grow to maturity gave us a lot of research and scouting, which are both necessary for us to build up.

I want 2-3 free cities, so we have more passive policies.
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Can we convert Gulvalley into a Trading Post in the future? It's already been pointed out that its location is pretty bad for expansion, but having a Trading Post between the Trelli and the Khemetri would probably come in handy.

Heck, I'm pretty sure it'd be cheaper then setting up a new Trading Post from scratch (though I do kinda want to set up a Northern Trading Post at some point).
 
PrimalShadow said:
Road Crew - Takes a New Trails every turn when under Yellow centralization. Builds Walls otherwise.
Performing Company - Does a Festival Action each turn.
Trading Company - Sends two secondary trade missions each turn.
etc.
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Blearily rubbing my eyes, I thought this was a discussion of @Academia Nut proposals.

I was all
Until I realized that was not the case.
 
Rakuhn said:
I have wonderful news for you: we can. It costs a secondary action, and we just need to have non-capital true cities.

Found Free City - Cities are hard to manage, giving them increased autonomy to manage themselves will reduce administrative overhead.
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We need to have True Cities that people are willing to give admin rights to.

Valleyhome is out; it is our capital.
Redshore is out; look at the current vote.
Sacred Forest is probably out; see both previous times it was voted on. Unless you think people will have changed their minds?
 
[X] [WB] Upgrade Cosmopolitan Acceptance
FRIENDSHIP

[X] [Inv] Highland Kingdom
[X] [Inv] Trelli
[X] [Inv] Thunder Horse
[X] [Inv] Swamp Folk
[X] [Inv] Metal Workers
[X] [Inv] Storm Wolves
You're invited, you're invited, everyone's invited! We don't wana be discrimitory at all, especially at the first international games as a civ that's planning on upgrading CA. If we discriminate we might not get as good on an upgrade. Remember Moloch Calls?

[X] Yes (2 Econ and 2 Econ expansion transferred, Redshore becomes a Free City)
I'm all for giving the Shadow King a throne. Just look at it this way - puts us one step closer to either Manorial or Mandala.

[X] [King] Hertythn (Heroic Admin, Average Diplo, Poor Martial; takes control while alive (1, possibly 2 turns))
Hertythn take the wheel, you're our only good choice!
 
PrimalShadow said:
Valleyhome is out; it is our capital.
Redshore is out; look at the current vote.
Sacred Forest is probably out; see both previous times it was voted on. Unless you think people will have changed their minds?
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That is because these three are our core Valleyhome is the center of government, Sacred Forest the center of religion, and Redshore the center of commerce we should not turn these into free cities at all.
 
Reader of all said:
That is because these three are our core Valleyhome is the center of government, Sacred Forest the center of religion, and Redshore the center of commerce we should not turn these into free cities at all.
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Yeah, but you know people will hate turning Stallionpen into a Free city too. :V

Pretty sure Bungie's plan is the only way this anti-delegation thread will approve it. MAYBE Redhills. We'll see.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We need to have True Cities that people are willing to give admin rights to.

Valleyhome is out; it is our capital.
Redshore is out; look at the current vote.
Sacred Forest is probably out; see both previous times it was voted on. Unless you think people will have changed their minds?
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I think that Redhsore is possible in a couple of turns time. Either convince the voters that the people supposedly behind the current problems have passed on due to age, or that the corruption in the area has been reduced (Restoration of Order/Enforce Justice) enough to that we don't fear criminal elements seizing control of the city.
 
pblur said:
So, basically, I want some military subordinates so we have to spend less actions putting out military fires. (Note that last time I checked we've spent significantly more actions on war than megaprojects to date; reducing this load is a big deal.)

I want a trading post or two, because the one we let grow to maturity gave us a lot of research and scouting, which are both necessary for us to build up.

I want 2-3 free cities, so we have more passive policies.
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I'm entirely in favor of mercenaries, trading posts, and free cities.

PrimalShadow said:
Sacred Forest is probably out; see both previous times it was voted on. Unless you think people will have changed their minds?
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I'm pretty sure we've still a significant fraction of the voterbase who don't want to give our priests a secular powerbase, so I don't think we're going to cut Sacred Forest loose anytime soon.

Which means we probably get to pick between Redhills or Stallionpen. I suppose we could take the action to make Sacred Forest (or Redshore in the future) a Free City, but that means not only getting people to support surrendering control to the city in question, but also give up an action that could be used for whatever their personal pet issues are.
 
Want to know what a Trading post will ACTUALLY do for us? Here's a summary of Greenshore's actions prior to becoming a colony:


Other was mostly Expand Econ, Walls, etc.
 
pblur said:
Yeah, but you know people will hate turning Stallionpen into a Free city too. :V

Pretty sure Bungie's plan is the only way this anti-delegation thread will approve it. MAYBE Redhills. We'll see.
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While losing Adminstrative control over Stallionpen would be distasteful, it would be more acceptable than the First Three core cities.
Adhoc vote count started by NewAgeOfPower on Aug 2, 2017 at 10:59 AM, finished with 93940 posts and 113 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by NewAgeOfPower on Aug 2, 2017 at 11:00 AM, finished with 93942 posts and 113 votes.
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Reader of all said:
That is because these three are our core Valleyhome is the center of government, Sacred Forest the center of religion, and Redshore the center of commerce we should not turn these into free cities at all.
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Be that as it may, we don't have any other True Cities now to turn into Free Cities. That was what I was talking about when I said we couldn't create free cities freely the way we could with other subordinates.
 
Rakuhn said:
I think that Redhsore is possible in a couple of turns time. Either convince the voters that the people supposedly behind the current problems have passed on due to age, or that the corruption in the area has been reduced (Restoration of Order/Enforce Justice) enough to that we don't fear criminal elements seizing control of the city.
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No we are not turning the center of commerce into a free city I do not mind free cities so long as they are not one of the big three.
 
[X] [WB] Upgrade Cosmopolitan Acceptance
[X] [Inv] Highland Kingdom
[X] [Inv] Trelli
[X] [Inv] Thunder Horse
[X] [Inv] Swamp Folk
[X] [Inv] Metal Workers
[X] [Inv] Storm Wolves
[X] No
[X] [King] Hertythn (Heroic Admin, Average Diplo, Poor Martial; takes control while alive (1, possibly 2 turns))
 
PrimalShadow said:
Be that as it may, we don't have any other True Cities now to turn into Free Cities. That was what I was talking about when I said we couldn't create free cities freely the way we could with other subordinates.
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We are running 3x infrastructure policy and we are in a population explosion another true city should pop up next turn the redhills one should be the one next to form.
 
Reader of all said:
No we are not turning the center of commerce into a free city I do not mind free cities so long as they are not one of the big three.
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Every city is going to have its trade offs, which I guess just illustrates @PrimalShadow's point.

Reader of all said:
We are running 3x infrastructure policy and we are in a population explosion another true city should pop up next turn the redhills one should be the one next to form.
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Next city will be Stallionpen. Which no one is going to want to turn into a Free City thanks to memories of the Stallion Tribes. Next is Redhills, which is going to be our center of industry. So its going to be a while until we get our first free city.
 
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McLuvin said:
Wait. So the trade post only did 24% focus on trading?

That kind of defeats the purpose
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Not at all. A lot of the shipping was more boats or docks which also increase trading power. Plus Sailing Missions to find new places to trade.

Edit: To me, the interesting part is that ~75% of what it did is stuff that benefits our core, and we'd really like to do if we had time. We want the relations and intel from trading, the tech from boats and mills, and the exploration from sailing missions and into the wild trade.

I mean, ~50% of all the actions it took had innovation rolls on them. This is a science post.
 
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NewAgeOfPower said:
Aqueducts are bad for the creation of cities?!?

What is this logic
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I keep telling people. Aqeuducts aren't magic city buttons. They're SEWER SYSTEMS. :V

I'm guessing this is actually modelling the extra irrigation the aqueduct allows. It incentivizes people to leave the city and go plant stuff in the newly fertile ground.
 
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