How do we raise economy? Like what actions relate to it?
New Settlement - Long term biggest boost. Short term normal boost due to Sacred Forest
Expand Pastures - Normal boost. Synergy bonus with taking in Nomads grants High boost
Expand Fishing - Normal boost
Expand Farms - Low boost, remaining areas are marginal
Expand Step Farms - Normal boost. Step farms will change Expand Farms from Low to Normal again until we run out of hills to use.
Expand Forest - Low boost, costly, but long term effects
Black Soil - Low boost, but synergy bonus with New Settlement, Farms, Step Farms, Expand Forest
 
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[x] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)
[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Fishing
 
Yes. The arguments being made are bad and kind of false:

...

Clearer?
Because both sides are using misleading and unsourced arguments
My position is apparently even more unclear, because you just fed into my fears with everything you sourced.

The only new bits of info there is that strife will cause instability after all, and there's actually a chance of -2 if we roll especially poorly.

I'm going to repeat myself for clarity

I want to rely as little as possible on the dice. I'd prefer to arrange our actions to ensure our stability remains... stable.

That is the entirety of my position.

My argument is that placing step farms at a higher priority than annual festival increases the chances of it being done first, which in turn decreases the chance of instability via negative economy.

As annual festival would still be included as a secondary action, it would still exist to counter to strife/instability caused by the nomads.

Thus, proper priorities for the same actions lead to increased safety margins.

Is that incorrect?
 
My position is apparently even more unclear, because you just fed into my fears with everything you sourced.

The only new bits of info there is that strife will cause instability after all, and there's actually a chance of -2 if we roll especially poorly.

I'm going to repeat myself for clarity

I want to rely as little as possible on the dice. I'd prefer to arrange our actions to ensure our stability remains... stable.

That is the entirety of my position.

My argument is that placing step farms at a higher priority than annual festival increases the chances of it being done first, which in turn decreases the chance of instability via negative economy.

As annual festival would still be included as a secondary action, it would still exist to counter to strife/instability caused by the nomads.

Thus, proper priorities for the same actions lead to increased safety margins.

Is that incorrect?
Somewhat incorrect, since the Step Farms do not have a synergy effect on them. If you want to Main an economic action, New Settlement(which boosts economy and creates a place to settle all these new people to buff the Strife roll) or Expand Pastures(to take advantage of their massive herds) should be able to grant us a bigger economy boot than Step Farms.
 
Somewhat incorrect, since the Step Farms do not have a synergy effect on them. If you want to Main an economic action, New Settlement(which boosts economy and creates a place to settle all these new people to buff the Strife roll) or Expand Pastures(to take advantage of their massive herds) should be able to grant us a bigger economy boot than Step Farms.
*Shrug*
My concern isn't getting the most economy possible, it's making sure the economy gains happens before the deductions.

If you think you could argue people to main settlement instead of festival, then I'll support that instead of farms, though I've already expressed concerns that secondary won't finish the project when main might. But that's just speculation.
 
I wonder what actions there are to increase Stab(ility).
Traditionally, things which tie people closer together and breed communal loyalties.

So that'd be:
Establish Annual Festival - People already like to celebrate at certain times of the year, but with the level of control over food distribution a new and particularly lavish festival can be established

Increased social bonding and understanding in the people .

Expand Places to Spirits - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom are nice, but they could be bigger and grander, especially after seeing the Spirit Talkers...

Expands religious authority, which ties people to the belief system and more accepting of anything that approves of.

Other option which add smaller incremental gains that probably won't reach a full point on their own is developing a formal legal code, elaborating upon our belief systems and expanding roads so people are more interconnected.

But note that AN said stats are harder to lower when already low, and harder to raise when already high. We'd probably find the -1 to +1 range the easiest.
*Shrug*
My concern isn't getting the most economy possible, it's making sure the economy gains happens before the deductions.

If you think you could argue people to main settlement instead of festival, then I'll support that instead of farms, though I've already expressed concerns that secondary won't finish the project when main might. But that's just speculation.
As AN already said, this is going to happen unless something goes very wrong.
Both the Nomad integration and the Festival are happening at times and places of our choice, so unless someone fucks up BIG, they'd hold a harvest festival after or during the harvest
 
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As AN already said, this is going to happen unless something goes very wrong.
Both the Nomad integration and the Festival are happening at times and places of our choice, so unless someone fucks up BIG, they'd hold a harvest festival after or during the harvest
What AN said is that he's rolling dice.

Something going wrong is as easy as 'whoops you rolled a 3'

We can't eliminate the dice entirely, but we can, perhaps, modify them.

I want to take any and every action that modifies them in such a way as to prioritize stability.

If there's only a 5% chance of doing festival first, I want to change it into a 1% chance. Then rolling a 3 is still safe.
 
What AN said is that he's rolling dice.

Something going wrong is as easy as 'whoops you rolled a 3'

We can't eliminate the dice entirely, but we can, perhaps, modify them.

I want to take any and every action that modifies them in such a way as to prioritize stability.

If there's only a 5% chance of doing festival first, I want to change it into a 1% chance. Then rolling a 3 is still safe.
Except the Festival action is an administrative action. Maining it increases the chance that the timing is chosen to be ideal and the necessary goods transported at the best time.

What makes you think putting it as secondary would improve it's timing?
 
[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (Strong chance of causing strife)
 
Why does everyone think that festival gives stability?
Festivals and celebrations tend to distract the people from the current troubles of the world, and in many societies can be considered to function as an outlet for social tension. It's an assumption that it will counter any instability we might get, as people who are too occupied partying regularly won't spend as much time dwelling on why they are unhappy.
 
New Settlement - Long term biggest boost. Short term normal boost due to Sacred Forest
Expand Pastures - Normal boost. Synergy bonus with taking in Nomads grants High boost
Expand Fishing - Normal boost
Expand Farms - Low boost, remaining areas are marginal
Expand Step Farms - Normal boost. Step farms will change Expand Farms from Low to Normal again until we run out of hills to use.
Expand Forest - Low boost, costly, but long term effects
Black Soil - Low boost, but synergy bonus with New Settlement, Farms, Step Farms, Expand Forest

Awesome! I do feel that we should keep an eye on not building too many settlements. We will have five after this turn. If we allow them the same density as our original three, we will have the highest population of any of the nearby peoples. That said, building too many settlements will start causing us some serious difficulty in our food saving practices.
 
You know, I really think Pastures is probably better than step farms right now. If we don't expand the pastures then there's probably going to be some disgruntled traders who get stuck dealing with some shared land. If we put some new land out, we can give it to the nomads and avoid that, while also making those nomads happy at being so well taken care of. And happy nomads are much easier to assimilate than stressed ones.
 
[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (Strong chance of causing strife)

[X][Main] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Step-Farms
[X][Secondary] Expand Pastures

Normal farms are obsolete reeee =/

I don't want to keep putting shit off, and the updated descrip for Settlement shouldn't be ignored. At this point there is no reason not to do settlement, and Pastures are also useful. Gotta make settlements so that our people can make more babby too.
 
Changing my vote because yeah, pastures is probably more beneficial than step-farms.

[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (Strong chance of causing strife)
 
Do we have a current tally? I've got no idea where things have moved or even what I voted for anymore.
 
New Settlement - Long term biggest boost. Short term normal boost due to Sacred Forest
Expand Pastures - Normal boost. Synergy bonus with taking in Nomads grants High boost
So given we are likely taking in the Nomads wouldn't this be the best course of action for the largest economy boost to get us back up from zero?
Expand Step Farms - Normal boost. Step farms will change Expand Farms from Low to Normal again until we run out of hills to use.
Do admit though we should do this soon if only to increase the activeness of an overall action and basically combining farms/step-farms action so that only one action is needed.

Festival will hopefully lower chance of causing strife so that is a given while also making People overall happier and get together.

[X] If you behave yourselves, you may settle (strong chance of causing strife)
[X][Main] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] New Settlement
[X][Secondary] Expand Pasture

Seems like the best combination for this turn and hope step-farms can be done next turn, maybe expand holy sites, and maybe even start another megaproject since they give awesome bonuses.
 
Except the Festival action is an administrative action. Maining it increases the chance that the timing is chosen to be ideal and the necessary goods transported at the best time.

What makes you think putting it as secondary would improve it's timing?
I have a handful of ideas about the differences between main and secondary. Both narrative and mechanical.

We know actions can fail. It stands to reason the a main action is more likely to succeed than a secondary action, because more labor, effort and care is put into it.

We know actions can have varying degrees of reward. It stands to reason that putting more thought and effort into an action increases it's yield.

We now know that even the order of the actions are determined by dice rolls. It stands to reason that focusing on an action and putting more effort towards it's success means the people are more likely to turn towards it first.

Main an action, more people work on it, the people who work on it put more effort into it, and altogether the action is focused on first as the highest priority. That's pretty much exactly what priority means, after all.

Secondary an action, an that means less labor, effort and time go into it, and we see less reward from it. It means that this is something to get done after the main priority. That this is an afterthought, or a supporting action.

I will straight up admit that I'm making a lot of claims and I don't have a lot of evidence. I have some evidence, but most of it is logically extrapolated from that.

But it makes sense, it seems pretty consistent to me.

So a bunch of my guesswork here is causing me to worry that focusing on lavish feasting while at an economy 0 that is based on shortage of food is more likely to result in weakening that economy further, causing negative effects that are easily avoided.

The things I'm worrying about are possible. We have AN confirmation. As things are, if we're unlucky we could go as far down as -2 stability. That's practically our people rioting.

What I'm trying to do is to use my assumptions and guesswork and probably flawed logic to reduce the chances of the devastating worst case scenario.

I'm agitated, because to the best of my knowledge, a very simple vote swap would result in basically the same turn, but with less risk of our entire civilisation imploding.

I know I could be wrong. I know that a lot of the mechanics are unclear, and both my fears and my attempted fix could be misdirected.

But I could also be right, and that's honestly the worst part. I want to be wrong. Tell me I'm wrong, and that everything will be fine.
 
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Welcoming the new
The High Chief considered the offer from the former Storm Clan member for a long time before he sent an ultimatum - none who had ever taken heads as trophies could ever be allowed into the land of the People. Exile was sufficient, but if possible such men were to be brought to justice. Additionally, any woman who had been taken in a raid was to be given the option to leave her husband if she so chose, with the People taking care of her and any of her children until they could find a new equilibrium, if necessary. Finally, there was to be no raiding of neighbours - all military actions were under the control of the High Chief, and unsanctioned attacks, even on outsiders, would be considered the same as if they attacked other members of the People.

The young man considered these demands, and after some consultation, arrived at the lands of the People with slightly fewer people than he had started with, and visibly disarming in front of the warriors. They and their animals were then escorted deeper in to the territory and shown a spot of hillside where they could set up pastures and farms under supervision. In a few years their warriors could begin serving in that capacity once again, but not all together, at least not initially.

This acceptance, despite being in accordance with the legends of generosity of the past, did not exactly sit well with many people who had just finished up a generation of conflict with these people, especially not the newly integrated hill tribes. For his part, the High Chief offered both additional resource allocations to those groups, along with subsidized resettlement of upset families deeper into the territory of the People, giving them access to prime farming and pasture-land, just as he was also moving to expand the settlement around the original holy site. This... irritated many people as they saw newcomers - in one way or another - getting preferential treatment over older families. Part of this was ameliorated by bringing more land in the hills that could not be used for farming or forestry because of slope under cultivation via the construction of terraces, but since the initial construction of the terraces was a gigantic pain in the ass, this also upset people.

Fortunately, as new crops started to come in from the productivity of the new farms on the hills, around the expanding holy site, within the tended forests, and from the farms benefiting from the black soil now that nowhere near as much of it was going to the blighted forests, the solution seemed simple: throw a party! There had always been extra rations at important times like the harvest, the solstices, the equinoxes, and certain phases of the moon at different times of year were the times for the elders to tell the youngster various stories to thrill and educate them, and minor feasts whenever important visitors stopped by, but with the chiefs controlling the distribution of food, having a truly spectacular feast was not something that typically happened. With the new storehouse tallies - especially now that they were mass grinding grain to flour that could keep for a much longer period - there was a much, much larger bit of wiggle room in the budget than there had been in generations.

The end of the struggle against the blight that no living person could claim to have seen the start and end of, and the wrapping up of the conflicts against the Storm Clan - although the north would probably always be a problem with the news they were getting out of the way the nomads were killing each other and sniffing around for loot once more - it seemed an appropriate time to celebrate. Major feasting was added to the post-harvest budgets of every settlement, with especially large celebrations in the main valley village and the coastal village. This loosening up of rations, as well as extra work for artists and artisans to make special items to show off at the feasts, is almost immediately welcomed by the People - especially the newcomers who aren't quite used to the more dour attitudes of the central tribes that make up the People, and calling people together to party has definite benefits.

However, with all of the new activity, and the newcomers, when the next High Chief comes into his role, he notes that the subordinate chiefs aren't entirely being honest with their reporting. It's obvious that they are playing fast and loose with their budgets in ways advantageous to their villages, their families, and themselves. While not too bad, it is something of a major departure from the norm, and could lead to trouble later if not nipped in the bud - although the act of getting his subordinates back in line could mean trouble now. On the other hand, the High Chief found that he had a great deal to do, and offloading some of the work to the lesser chiefs and their subordinates could free up considerable time to address the big issues.

What to do about troublesome subordinates...
[] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if successful, decreases stability if not)
[] Let the matter lie
[] Delegate further responsibilities to the local chiefs (Changes government type to Central Oligarchy)

As the years went on, aside from internal grumbling, there were also obvious issues outside the lands of the People. The northern plains were a gigantic mess of fighting, and the occasional raid would wash up against their northern hills, mostly stealing livestock and making off with a few lone people caught out in the open now that the numerous little settlements had walls ringing them to keep them safe, but still something the warriors had to deal with. It also made finding out more about the elusive source of gold that the nomads had found hard to find, as apparently they traded/raided it from a group further to the west, and the people who had explained about the sunlight coloured material could only shrug as to whether those people made it or traded for it themselves.

Closer in, trouble was brewing again. The Western Confederacy had been learning well how to farm along the hills that made the borders of the lowland floodplains, and were now more numerous enough that there were thoughts of going to kick in the teeth of the Dead Priests. This would be grand and all, but some of their settlements now in the lowlands proper, and the Spirit Talkers were starting to take exception to this. While the People didn't have any great desire to take the land, it was obvious that since it could support bad farming practices quite well, with more responsible practice it would be quite the prize and thus conflict was probably going to be inevitable. While no one wanted the Dead Priests to claim the territory, someone was going to take it, and there was some suspicion that the Spirit Talkers had declared the place taboo so that they could better justify it to themselves and the spirits if they took over once they knew how to actually make the land productive. Still, there was a pressure to pick a side and join one group or the other in a major raid on the Dead Priests, especially since with the most animals and the best woodworking they could actually field large numbers of war carts, which should function about as well in the lowlands as the northern plains where they had been first created.

Commit to a War Expedition against the Dead Priests next turn (min. Secondary focus)
[] Join the Spirit Talkers
[] Join the Western Confederacy
[] Stay out of it

Because of continued commitment to taking in outsiders, Love Thy Neighbour has consumed Pioneering Spirit to shape its advancement
Love Thy Neighbour -> Land of Opportunity
You welcome all, offering food and shelter if they will contribute to your community. Sometimes these newcomers behave badly, and sometimes they bring strange new ideas, but in general they strengthen your community, especially in the long run
Pros: Enhanced absorption of new ideas, +1 social value from current or historical neighbours, whenever a neighbour suffers a stability drop, have the option to also suffer a stability drop in exchange for a large boost to Econ and technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people
Cons: Many think you weak, not accepting the needy can cause stability drops

Draw bonus social value from which neighbour?
[] Western Confederacy (Probably Pioneering Spirit again)
[] Spirit Talkers (Probably spiritual based)
[] Northern nomads (Probably honour based)
 
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Ohhhh~!
[X] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if sucessful, decreases stability if not)
[X] Stay out of it
[X] Spirit Talkers (Probably spiritual based)
 
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[X] Delegate further responsibilities to the local chiefs (Changes government type to Central Oligarchy)
[X] Stay out of it
[X] Northern nomads (Probably honour based)
 
[X] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if sucessful, decreases stability if not)
[x] Stay out of it
[x] Northern nomads (Probably honour based)
 
[X] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if successful, decreases stability if not)
[X] Join the Western Confederacy
[X] Northern nomads (Probably honour based)

Here's my initial vote. I think our current centralization-heavy strategy is good and worth the risk to preserve, as being able to efficiently complete megaprojects is very, very nice. Also, lying administrators should not be rewarded with additional power.

As to the war, I'm going to join the Western Confederacy because condemning the whole land is just not something that I think our people would accept. The Spirit Talkers won't like us for it, but they hate the Dead Priests enough that they'll probably still trade with us (especially since they know that if they cut off trade with us we'll be even further outside of their sphere of control)
At the same time though, staying out of it will make both sides angry with us since that means letting the Dead Priests continue- something that everyone can agree is not a good thing.

edit: spelling error was corrected as I was posting.
 
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[X] Bring them back in line (Increases Centralization if sucessful, decreases stability if not)
[x] Stay out of it
[X] Western Confederacy (Probably Pioneering Spirit again)
 
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