[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)

The RedHills aren't completely undefended. It is still garrisoned, and the Heaven's Hawk will protect it. I think that the King can defeat the Xoh quickly enough to reinforce the army there.
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Size
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Size
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1Art)
[X] [Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Adhoc vote count started by Hangwind on Jul 3, 2017 at 9:24 AM, finished with 67098 posts and 95 votes.
 
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The king knows what's up regarding war and has years of experience to transition away from nomad defensive thinking (run away)

Yes, but he does not have all the information. Through Rulwyna's spy network of drunken, gossipy merchants she knows that the attack is coming. The "withdraw the main forces" is essentially her going to the king, informing him of her intel, and him deciding to withdraw the troops thereby keeping the legitimacy of the office.
 
That was mostly them not looking long term. Plenty of places have that problem.
Which is the same case here. Centralization starts causing problems at 1, and having one lower centralization translates to one more Stability, which is critically needed in this time.

Yet we're refusing it.
Hell, lets get word straight from AN here on it(I'll be offline by the time he answers but eh)
@Academia Nut
At what level of Centralization do we suffer the reaction loss and Legitimacy fraility?
Currently the claims are:
1) Centralization 1 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 0 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.
2) Centralization 2 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 1 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.
3) Centralization 3 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 2 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.

Which of these are more valid?
By the way, it's a bit unfair that the HK and TS spend generations fighting the Xoh, even hiring us to help, and then as soon as we decide to do the same, that's apparently a reason for them to join up and try to wipe us out.
They can't actually wipe us out from their PoV, their wargoal is to drive the Ymaryn out of the lowlands.
That it might shatter us is something that they don't know about, from their perspective we spent thousands of years getting swole and now pour out while they are weak.
if the war counts as Defensive for our vassal can we kick it?
We're at the walls of Xohy.
It's not defensive anymore.
Guys? They don't actually want the mine and afaict we don't really need it. Turn the problem around: can we just pull out of that mine? Just take our equipment and retreat to somewhere more defensible?

Take an econ hit but keep our King doing what he does best.
They do want the mine. It gives
-Knowledge of what ore produces iron.
-Knowledge of what you need to do to produce enough heat to smelt iron.
-You can't just pick up the tools when the kilns are extremely sturdy brick and stone structures

And we NEED the mine because losing it will cause Stability and Legitimacy hits from Divine Stewards AND Lord's Loyalty.

You know has anyone ever considered that rulwynna who once again has POOR MARTIAL is wrong about the TS and the HK attacking redhills and instead will attack our lowland vassals and our now weakened mercenary band and hero instead? We can survive losing our iron monopoly (which I would like to point out we would lose anyway if we lose the lowland minors and/or the red banners) what we cannot survive is lord's loyalty and divine stewards kicking us while we are down.
Because odds are even if both the Thunder Speakers and the Highland Kingdom attack the Vassal + Red Banner...they'd lose.

Our garrison force is Martial 1
Our main force is Martial 8. This is currently attacking Xohy and will be withdrawn
The Red Banners, based on previous info, are around Martial 10. This is currently attacking Xohy
The Vassals have an unknown Martial score, but presumably around 4-6 at least due to being lowlanders.

Based on how the Red Banners singlehandedly outperformed each of the Thunder Speakers and Highlander armies when on loan to them from equipment advantage, we need the main force on defense more than the Red Banner is in danger of the Highlanders and the Thunder Speakers running a long distance campaign to rescue their ancient foes.

Also another thing to consider Rulwynna does not have all the information available to her

So we are acting on the guess of someone who has poor martial when she does not know the state of the defenses and how the war is going.
Also another thing to consider is that our King currently has no information at all, due to largely ignoring all the clunky admin stuff and being as far away from our government as the length of our entire country.
I really wonder what it will take for us to make peace with the Xohyssiri again. Our King doesn't strike me as someone who will initiate peace talks. If we are lucky the Xoh will be open to just make peace with us, once we pull back from their capital, and focus on the swamp people. But, we could also end up with our King resisting peace for so long that the Xoh get their shit together. Then once our Martial hero dies they could feel emboldened to take back their vassals...
As long as we are at war going for 2x [Main] New trails will be at the risk of a cascade failure due to Lord's Loyalty -> Divine Stewards...
Link up the vassals, drop Massive walls.
How exactly are we feeding and restocking our troops without looting the land, or at least all the food of the land?
Nomad style, drive cattle herds along the baggage train, then supplement with forage and loot/vassal tribute.
 
I really wonder what it will take for us to make peace with the Xohyssiri again. Our King doesn't strike me as someone who will initiate peace talks. If we are lucky the Xoh will be open to just make peace with us, once we pull back from their capital, and focus on the swamp people. But, we could also end up with our King resisting peace for so long that the Xoh get their shit together. Then once our Martial hero dies they could feel emboldened to take back their vassals...
As long as we are at war going for 2x [Main] New trails will be at the risk of a cascade failure due to Lord's Loyalty -> Divine Stewards...

He was born a nomad, so I doubt he will say no once they admit defeat and offer sufficient shiny stuff.
He also only started this to give the North some opportunities for glory, which they should have had by now.

Thyre tiny polities thought, and long lasting warfare of of conquests changing hands has stunted thier development. If they produced enough food to equal us, the lowlanders would have beaten us by sheer raw numbers.

They exist in constant state of infighting. The Xoh could have probably kicked our ass had they not just spent their manpower fighting every neighbour they have within the last generation.
 
Which is the same case here. Centralization starts causing problems at 1, and having one lower centralization translates to one more Stability, which is critically needed in this time.

Yet we're refusing it.
Hell, lets get word straight from AN here on it(I'll be offline by the time he answers but eh)
@Academia Nut
At what level of Centralization do we suffer the reaction loss and Legitimacy fraility?
Currently the claims are:
1) Centralization 1 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 0 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.
2) Centralization 2 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 1 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.
3) Centralization 3 is Low stability, triggering reaction loss, while Centralization 2 triggers fracture as soon as Stability/Legitimacy hits the threshold at all.

Which of these are more valid?

They can't actually wipe us out from their PoV, their wargoal is to drive the Ymaryn out of the lowlands.
That it might shatter us is something that they don't know about, from their perspective we spent thousands of years getting swole and now pour out while they are weak.

We're at the walls of Xohy.
It's not defensive anymore.

They do want the mine. It gives
-Knowledge of what ore produces iron.
-Knowledge of what you need to do to produce enough heat to smelt iron.
-You can't just pick up the tools when the kilns are extremely sturdy brick and stone structures

And we NEED the mine because losing it will cause Stability and Legitimacy hits from Divine Stewards AND Lord's Loyalty.


Because odds are even if both the Thunder Speakers and the Highland Kingdom attack the Vassal + Red Banner...they'd lose.

Our garrison force is Martial 1
Our main force is Martial 8. This is currently attacking Xohy and will be withdrawn
The Red Banners, based on previous info, are around Martial 10. This is currently attacking Xohy
The Vassals have an unknown Martial score, but presumably around 4-6 at least due to being lowlanders.

Based on how the Red Banners singlehandedly outperformed each of the Thunder Speakers and Highlander armies when on loan to them from equipment advantage, we need the main force on defense more than the Red Banner is in danger of the Highlanders and the Thunder Speakers running a long distance campaign to rescue their ancient foes.


Also another thing to consider is that our King currently has no information at all, due to largely ignoring all the clunky admin stuff and being as far away from our government as the length of our entire country.

Link up the vassals, drop Massive walls.

Nomad style, drive cattle herds along the baggage train, then supplement with forage and loot/vassal tribute.


How come we didn't get wiped then? Using herds as roving supply train is a disaster in the making for deep or protracted campaigns. Our King must be a bloody once a millennium genius for it to work.

Unless Thyre using horse herds but that dos not eliminate the flaw only lessens it
 
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Which is the same case here. Centralization starts causing problems at 1, and having one lower centralization translates to one more Stability, which is critically needed in this time.

Yet we're refusing it.
We are currently voting for 2 actions that will both lower our centralization by 1.
 
New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

And he is arguing that we should lower it by 3 so that we can both raise stability and build the trails we need.

We don't need it to go down by 3 to make new trails. Also where is the option to raise stability at the cost of Cent?
 
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We don't need it to go down by 3 to make new trails.
His plan is double main new trails + 1 enforce justice. His other point is that every centralization that we go down is another enforce justice that we can use.

So going down three will allow us to either do
Double Main New Trails + Secondary Enforce Justice for amazing trails and 1 stability
or
Main New Trails + Main Enforce Justice for trails and 2 stability
 
[X] [War] Withdraw all forces (-1 Legitimacy, Rulwyna becomes queen)
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)

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[X] veekie

I am putting all my faith into veekie. He may be wrong in the past, but he was spot on several times lately.
 
His plan is double main new trails + 1 enforce justice. His other point is that every centralization that we go down is another enforce justice that we can use.

So going down three will allow us to either do
Double Main New Trails + Secondary Enforce Justice for amazing trails and 1 stability
or
Main New Trails + Main Enforce Justice for trails and 2 stability
I am willing to bet anything that next turn at least one of our actions is going to be needed for some emergency. Actions are not free. Also having less cent in this weather and political climate will likely lose us a stability in the meantime.

Also if we have spare Cent and actions we are likely to use it on more roads.
 
How come we didn't get wiped then? Using herds as roving supply train is a disaster in the making for deep or protracted campaigns. Our King must be a bloody once a millennium genius for it to work.

Unless Thyre using horse herds but that dos not eliminate the flaw only lessens it
Which...isn't a problem? It's effective supplementary supply(using it as base supply obviously has issues, but you can actually drive fairly large herds along fertile floodplains easily), and it's basically the Nomad approach, which our King is.

His plan is double main new trails + 1 enforce justice. His other point is that every centralization that we go down is another enforce justice that we can use.

So going down three will allow us to either do
Double Main New Trails + Secondary Enforce Justice for amazing trails and 1 stability
or
Main New Trails + Main Enforce Justice for trails and 2 stability
Or Double Main New Trails + Provinces take Secondary Enfore Justice yes.
We're in a time where we desperately need Econ and Stability, which the Greater Permission grants both, one directly, one indirectly, WHILE Stability 2 does not trigger the Legitimacy woes because of not burning Stability on Kicking or Charity.

Perfect for riding out the crisis.
 
They do want the mine. It gives
-Knowledge of what ore produces iron.
-Knowledge of what you need to do to produce enough heat to smelt iron.
-You can't just pick up the tools when the kilns are extremely sturdy brick and stone structures

And we NEED the mine because losing it will cause Stability and Legitimacy hits from Divine Stewards AND Lord's Loyalty.

I'm not sure it will. The worry here isn't that they would come in and take over our land, the worry is that they'll raid us for our knowledge. Divine Stewards shouldn't trigger because it's not like we're causing environmental damage; Lord's Loyalty shouldn't trigger because the miners are safe. Plus, if they actually stay there and take over the mine proper, they make themselves a juicy stationary target that we can then surround at leisure, instead of turtling up defensively. As I understand it, Lord's Loyalty should only trigger if we fail to do something about it after we know there's attackers at our doorstep. Tearing down the kilns and pulling back the miners should address the "raid us for knowledge" problem without requiring an immediate defensive commitment. Best-case, they run in, raid us, find nothing much of interest and, disgruntledly leave. Second-best case, they try to take over the mine and make themselves a stationary target for us to go grind up. Worst-case, they get angry and commit punitive atrocities against the civilian populace nearby. That seems relatively unlikely though.
 
I'm going to be that next turn we are going to do a Main Trails, Secondary EJ and Switch to Offensive Policy. Fighting a 3 front war with only a Main war mission would be very painful.

If the switch is free, we'll probably use a secondary on something that will increase our LTE.
 
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