Paths of Civilization

notgreat · Jul 3, 2017

veekie said:
Provinces having nothing to Law is fine, that means they generate Econ instead and we kind of need that. Badly

Actually, that's not the case anymore. They now apparently act somewhat like balanced but with an emphasis on getting the resources necessary to continue doing the policy. So they'll likely do an expand econ but it won't be purely like that (not sure what triggered that change, but it has happened)

ctulhuslp said:
@Academia Nut , can taking minimal option with regards to taking in refugees which are, in part, our fault, damage CA?

We are taking in all refugees who come, we just aren't going to them and convincing them to leave.
----
There's 5 voters voting
[Mill] Lesser permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
This is problematic, as the text is Lesser but the data in the parenthesis is for Greater. Choosing which side to go with actually changes who's winning that vote right now.
@Dieb
@ctulhuslp
@StarkDemise
@Therealtahu
@tryrar
Please fix your votes so that your [Mill] vote's text and data match.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2655 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 66365-66801]
##### NetTally 1.9.8

Task: War

[51][War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[2][War] Withdraw all forces (-1 Legitimacy, Rulwyna becomes queen)

bluefur87
Carrnage

[2][War] Hope the king wins quickly

maximillian
kilopi505

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Boat

[45][Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[7][Boat] New design: Size

VoidZero
Glassware
Guile
Hangwind
Rozencrantz
RulerOfNothing
Spectrum

[4][Boat] New design: Speed

Ghostdevil
Carrnage
Neptune
Potato and Chip

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Mill

[26][Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[26][Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[5][Mill] Lesser permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)

Dieb
ctulhuslp
StarkDemise
Therealtahu
tryrar

[2][Mill] Denied

VoidZero
Guile

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: WC

[50][WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[8][WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)

Spectrum
Carrnage
Hangwind
Marlin
maximillian
RulerOfNothing
Shard
Spartan492

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Main

[40][Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
-[25][Main] Kick the Megaproject (Pay 1 Stability, gain another Main action)
[21][Main] Main Build Mill
[1][Main] Study Forests

The Sandman

[1][Main] Main Expand Economy

Shard

[1][Main] Main New Settlement - Far Eastern Redhills

Neptune

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Refugee

[41][Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[15][Refugee] They were helping to create refugees, they should help more (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Ghostdevil
Abby Normal
ALanos
George
Glassware
hylas240
kalugin
Manget
PyrrosWarrior
Reader of all
Spartan492
SpeckofStardust
Spectrum
SyntheticTrevor
VoidZero

[3][Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)

Hangwind
ctulhuslp
Glassware

Total No. of Voters: 59

drake_azathoth · Jul 3, 2017

notgreat said:
We are currently at Stability 1 Legitimacy 3. This vote has the potential to bring us temporarily down to Stability -1, Legitimacy 3. (Assumes failed refugee roll) This is still a safe value by 2, meaning we could take an unexpected -1 safely.

It also gives us +1 Stability from finishing the Megaproject and triggering Divine Stewards, and makes absolutely certain we don't take the stability hit from Starvation next turn.

If we don't kick it and we get lucky on refugees, we'll be at Stability 2. This is actually not that good because our provinces won't be able to use The Law on anything, yet we'll still be taking repeated stability hits from refugees over the next several turns.

-1 stability with a risk of -2 when we are facing an administrative crisis and a potential plague is VERY risky.

And kicking the megaproject doesn't get it done faster- it lets us take an extra main action. So long as we take 'complete it' the megaproject will finish next turn. Mills do provide us further econ but that is not worth the risk people are proposing.

As far as being 'stuck at 2 stability', provinces can do a Festival if we're still on Restoration and at this point worrying we won't be able to yoyo our stability with lots of immigrants for extra econ doesn't strike me as a problem.

PyrrosWarrior · Jul 3, 2017

veekie said:
We actually have that.

Politics happened to it

First off, that question was not aimed at you AND had already been answered.

Second, you might want to explain because that contradicts what I have been told.

Aabcehmu · Jul 3, 2017

[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Speed
[X] [Mill] Denied
[X] [WC] They can do it themselves (Stallions displeased)
[X] [Main] Main Expand Economy
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)

Glassware · Jul 3, 2017

veekie said:
We are under attack, which can cost Econ and Stability if they beat out defenders. Temporary Stability -3 is possible. -4 if kicking.

I don't understand your math for this. We have 1 stability, -1 from kick, -1 from refugees, -1 from failing on defense is only -2 total.

Susano · Jul 3, 2017

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Reader of all · Jul 3, 2017

Rakuhn said:
Its an information game. We know what they plan to do: hit the unsupported redhills to acquire our ironworking technology. But do they know that we know what they plan to do? If so, they will hit our unsupported king and try to wipe out the Red Banner and our vassal's forces between three armies.

Um no that is what rulwynna suspects they will do and her assessment makes sense... if not for the fact that the HK are on the other side of the map and TS's armies are not built for combat at the hills

Academia Nut said:
Rulwyna wasn't much of a general, but she knew that the Highlanders knew about the People's access to iron. If she were the Highlanders or Thunder Speakers, she would strike there with the objective of raiding the mine and attempting to capture the workers that the People jealously guarded, as even if ultimately driven off they could still keep the People from dominating them utterly in generations to come.

veekie said:
They know Redhills has our mines. If they grab it they both sever our logistics ang gives them the iron they need to contest us.

Yes but how can they coordinate without us noticing when the HK are on the other side of our territory. But I guess that does make sense so I am dropping the matter because while I think the HK and TS will likely target Phygriff rather than red hills to deny us the lowlands I also have confidence that Phygriff can survive and also do not want us to conquer Xohyr because of the administrative head aches it will cause.

Andres · Jul 3, 2017

Just a reminder that Centralisation has benefits besides ensuring we don't die. We're currently dealing with plague, refugees, and a bunch of other stuff, and keeping Centralisation up will ensure we can handle that stuff better. Going down to Centralisation 2 puts us in danger in that regard. Centralisation 3 is what AN regarded as "low Centralisation" and being at it for as long as we once were had permanent negative effects on our food distribution system. Centralisation 2 will be worse. Please do not vote for Greater Permission.

Susano · Jul 3, 2017

Also...

Academia Nut said:
Keep that in mind for when you actually get there

Why is there no 'Absolutely Horrified' rating???

PrimalShadow · Jul 3, 2017

Sivantic said:
...It's on the front page

I was looking at how the "doubles the strength of one Policy action per turn" effect worked. @Candesce's explanation answered my question. Thanks, @Candesce!

ctulhuslp · Jul 3, 2017

veekie said:
We are under attack, which can cost Econ and Stability if they beat out defenders. Temporary Stability -3 is possible. -4 if kicking.

And if we take their economy, they will have way worse shot at winning.

notgreat said:
We are taking in all refugees who come, we just aren't going to them and convincing them to leave.

Second option explicitly takes note of us making some of refugees.
And, like, do you realize how hard it is to up and move somewhere in that age? Taking only those who come on their own is definitely not taking in all who are suffering because of us.

sidestory · Jul 3, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
They were already there before the turn began, Nomad King took them to fight the Xoh before we sent any of our actual soldiers.

Doesn't matter, they are still a vassal and still get to take their actions each main turn, which obviously would be a double main war mission and I now would like to know whether they were just not posted or whether AN forgot them & we already technically would have conquered Xohyr due to the 2 extra war missions under the Heroic king, thus finished the war & due that would not have to worry about Red hills being raided due lack of Warriors

Which is kinda really important for us given ou current situation

Susano · Jul 3, 2017

ctulhuslp said:
Second option explicitly takes note of us making some of refugees.
And, like, do you realize how hard it is to up and move somewhere in that age? Taking only those who come on their own is definitely not taking in all who are suffering because of us.

Neither of those concerns seem really relevant to me. First of all, we have to ensure that our civilization survives, which is literally what is at stake.

notgreat · Jul 3, 2017

drake_azathoth said:
-1 stability with a risk of -2 when we are facing an administrative crisis and a potential plague is VERY risky.

We touch -1 before Divine Stewards puts us back at 0. The risk of -2 is only if we get unexpected random damage, and that still won't break us.

drake_azathoth said:
As far as being 'stuck at 2', provinces can do a Festival if we're still on Restoration and at this point worrying we won't be able to yoyo our stability with lots of immigrants for extra econ doesn't strike me as a problem.

No, Festivals max out at Stability 2. They'd have to Proclaim Glory next turn to get The Law's bonus, and we won't have the Art for that (since provinces won't spend to 0). So we lose out on a free action. Not a huge loss, but a noticeable one.

Andres110 said:
Just a reminder that Centralisation has benefits besides ensuring we don't die. We're currently dealing with plague, refugees, and a bunch of other stuff, and keeping Centralisation up will ensure we can handle that stuff better. Going down to Centralisation 2 puts us in danger in that regard. Centralisation 3 is what AN regarded as "low Centralisation" and being at it for as long as we once were had permanent negative effects on our food distribution system. Centralisation 2 will be worse. Please do not vote for Greater Permission.

We immediately gain it back next turn. There is a risk of losing a little bit more if we get a bad admin roll, but it should be noted that our current king will likely die before then. And the Sacred Forest should prevent the crisis from dealing more damage to us. It better considering how expensive it was...

Sivantic · Jul 3, 2017

PyrrosWarrior said:
First off, that question was not aimed at you AND had already been answered.

Second, you might want to explain because that contradicts what I have been told.

It's...old information. From a long time ago. Give me a second.

He's right, but so am I, so please wait.

veekie · Jul 3, 2017

notgreat said:
Actually, that's not the case anymore. They now apparently act somewhat like balanced but with an emphasis on getting the resources necessary to continue doing the policy. So they'll likely do an expand econ but it won't be purely like that (not sure what triggered that change, but it has happened)

Which...doesn't change things? They need Art, Wealth and Econ to boost Stability. They need Econ to generate Art and Wealth. Therefore they will generate Econ, using Mills if they lack Expansions.

maximillian · Jul 3, 2017

maximillian said:
[X] [War] Hope the king wins quickly
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Greater permission (-3 Wealth, -1 Art, -2 Centralization, +3 Econ, increased potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Greater assistance (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, Stallions very pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They should take in as many as they could (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, overcrowding)

Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise, God help me, amen.

For war the best action is to leave the war to the warriors, politics overruling in the middle of a war never ends well. Politicians for all their intellect are armchair generals.

As for boats, reliability is key. All other aspects are redundant if the structure itself is not reliable.

For the mills, we need to decentralize power, having the king be the only power in the realm is untenable, kingly powers need to be dispersed and split. And this is a step in the right direction.

For the stallions, same reasoning, only this time it has the added benefit of them liking us enough to not rebel for a generation.

For the refugees, were on restoration, we can tank the stab hits, and we need the Econ, it will buff our martial, meaning we can more easily defend ourselves. Also, we will be leaching Econ from our neighbors, lessening their strength, which is vital since they plan to attack. Plus a large enough influx may give us options to change the more untenable parts of our system, or lessen the backlash from doing so.

Raichu1972 · Jul 3, 2017

Sivantic said:
It's...old information. From a long time ago. Give me a second.

He's right, but so am I, so please wait.

If I recall correctly, it works in the sense that the chiefs elect the advisers like they elect the king, except its like war chiefs elect the War chief from among themselves, and so on.
So specialists elect specialists.

PyrrosWarrior · Jul 3, 2017

Sivantic said:
It's...old information. From a long time ago. Give me a second.

He's right, but so am I, so please wait.

Okay, thank you. It is very hard to keep up with everything from such a long quest. I remember there are chiefs and that our economy is divided in the city based on occupation with them each having a leader to represent them.

Rakuhn · Jul 3, 2017

Reader of all said:
Um no that is what rulwynna suspects they will do and her assessment makes sense... if not for the fact that the HK are on the other side of the map and TS's armies are not built for combat at the hills

1) We don't have a land connection to our vassals. That means the HK can pass through unoccupied territory to hit Redhills.
2) We haven't fortified redhills very much, and the vast majority of our army is fighting the Xoh. The TS don't need to engage in a prolonged campaign, they only need to send raiding forces. Especially if they are reinforced by the HK.

veekie · Jul 3, 2017

PyrrosWarrior said:
First off, that question was not aimed at you AND had already been answered.

Second, you might want to explain because that contradicts what I have been told.

We've had the Advisory Council since....the canal.

Glassware said:
I don't understand your math for this. We have 1 stability, -1 from kick, -1 from refugees, -1 from failing on defense is only -2 total.

Order of execution. If the attack happens after we pay costs, but before the profits come in, we can temporarily hit Econ -1, which costs another Stability

Reader of all said:
Um no that is what rulwynna suspects they will do and her assessment makes sense... if not for the fact that the HK are on the other side of the map and TS's armies are not built for combat at the hills

Yes but how can they coordinate without us noticing when the HK are on the other side of our territory. But I guess that does make sense so I am dropping the matter because while I think the HK and TS will likely target Phygriff rather than red hills to deny us the lowlands I also have confidence that Phygriff can survive and also do not want us to conquer Xohyr because of the administrative head aches it will cause.

Because its open plains they can ride across. We have no garrison force or towers to stop them

Andres110 said:
Centralisation 3 is what AN regarded as "low Centralisation"

Bullshit. He said that we've never ever BEEN at Low Centralization. Centralization 3 was high enough to negate all environmental damage so far unless they CAN'T be countered with Cent.

Low Cent is then Low Yellow, which is Cent 1

tenchifew · Jul 3, 2017

[X] [War] Withdraw main forces to defend Redhills, leave vassals and Red Banner
[X] [Boat] New design: Seaworthiness
[X] [Mill] Lesser permission (-2 Wealth, -1 Art, -1 Centralization, +2 Econ, potential for innovation)
[X] [WC] Lesser assistance (-2 Art, -1 Centralization, Stallions pleased, ???)
[X] [Main] Sacred Forest Renewal Completion (-2 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Art)
[X] [Refugee] They accepted all who came (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

PyrrosWarrior · Jul 3, 2017

veekie said:
We've had the Advisory Council since....the canal.

I know we have advisors. @Sivantic said they didn't have any actual power; which empowering them is, in simplified terms, what I was proposing doing to simplify our administrative burden without having to give up much central power.

ctulhuslp · Jul 3, 2017

Susano said:
Neither of those concerns seem really relevant to me. First of all, we have to ensure that our civilization survives, which is literally what is at stake.

And there is no meaningful danger to us from taking at least moderate amount because of Renewal stability payout, so that, for one, is not going to kill us, so it's pretty irrelevant answer on your part.

All the refugees option is a bit risky, but will be also a solid economic drain from enemies, making war easier, especially against those also hit by climate change.

Raichu1972 · Jul 3, 2017

maximillian said:
For war the best action is to leave the war to the warriors, politics overruling in the middle of a war never ends well. Politicians for all their intellect are armchair generals.

As for boats, reliability is key. All other aspects are redundant if the structure itself is not reliable.

For the mills, we need to decentralize power, having the king be the only power in the realm is untenable, kingly powers need to be dispersed and split. And this is a step in the right direction.

For the stallions, same reasoning, only this time it has the added benefit of them liking us enough to not rebel for a generation.

For the refugees, were on restoration, we can tank the stab hits, and we need the Econ, it will buff our martial, meaning we can more easily defend ourselves. Plus a large enough influx may give us options to change the more untenable parts of our system, or lessen the backlash from doing so.

Leaving us at 0 stab and 1 cent will definitely change our government, but most likely to one with lower cent tolerance.
The overcrowding from the refugees will also likely exasperate the plague problem in the cities, possibly causing us to lose one.
Also, if the Xoh resurge, the Highland Kingdom and TS will be able to freely raid our iron, possibly take our land without anyone to repel them, and cause a Divine Stewards Spiral.
These all seem like really bad things to me.

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notgreat

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Confusion as a Natural State of Being

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Reader of all

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sidestory

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notgreat

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