Paths of Civilization

Ian Drash · Mar 12, 2017

pbluekan said:
@ctulhuslp Im with you on the fishing. We'll see how next turn pans out.

@Ian Drash and others wanting a pyramid, I hate to burst you bubble, but I think it's probably impossible with the Gardener social value.

Big projects like that are strictly limited in that they have to, at least with the finished product, benefit or contribute to the land or the management of the land.

Social values can change, and we could be innovators, and not build a pyramid, but sculpt one from a hill. After all, what is the differencs between a pyramid, and a square hill, which has terrace farms on all side?

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Ian Drash said:
Social values can change, and we could be innovators, and not build a pyramid, but sculpt one from a hill. After all, what is the differencs between a pyramid, and a square hill, which has terrace farms on all side?

Something similar is called Kurgans. Scythians (actually proto-Indo-Europeans but oh well) did it before pyramids became mainstream.
Chinese had something similar dating Neolithic age too.

Athas · Mar 12, 2017

[X] Support more wise folk to serve as educators
[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement

Scarecrow · Mar 12, 2017

[X] Devote more assistants to the leaders, decreasing the complexity of their tasks
[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement

Hangwind · Mar 12, 2017

So...we're not doing the canal. Why?

veekie · Mar 12, 2017

^^
Potential ecological collapse upcoming not being a reason to reevaluate?

Sivantic said:
It isn't just forest there veekie, those are hills as well. The new settlement wouldn't get us any closer as the hills are halfway between the proposed settlement and the coastal village.

Those are forested hills
The reason the river is silting up is because forested hills are becoming hills

If you recognize that it is too soon for tge canal, would consider doing Extend Forests instead as it synergizes with our megaproject of fixing blight?

Also a reminder that Mega projects reduce Economy, so we need to take as many Economy centered projects as we can to reduce Econ malus as oppose to new building projects that cost more initial Economy.

Note that according to Pioneer Spirit, new settlements boost Economy as well. They reduce distance to cover for Manage Forests and Expand Farm actions.

Versharl · Mar 12, 2017

[X] Devote more assistants to the leaders, decreasing the complexity of their tasks
[X] [Mega-Project] Fight Forest Blight
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] Expand Managed Forests

Only reason I'm taking Expand Forests over New Settlement this turn is because our economy will take a serious hit otherwise. We need a buffer in case something pops up while we're doing the Mega-Project.
As for bureaucracy over education, I simply believe that education at this stage will not be very effective. Farmers need their children to help them out on the farm, so the time spend being educated will be extremely limited and of little use. Better to build a strong bureaucracy now that can handle larger tasks and reduce inefficiency.

Hangwind said:
So...we're not doing the canal. Why?

Are you serious? It's because we want to avert an ecological disaster that will likely cause significant damage to us and limit the possibility of expansion in the future. After all, it's a lot harder to farm on craggy rocks than on fertile hills. Just look at Greece.

Motoko · Mar 12, 2017

Anybody feel like doing a vote tally? I'm interested in seeing whats winning

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
So...we're not doing the canal. Why?

If we do not solve upcoming ecological disaster now, doing it will only become more and more expensive as the blight worsens. We already had to deal with the fallout previous turn, what with snails, our only luxury resource, almost dying due to siltier river, which is due to hills being worse than forested hills at keeping ground at its place.
(EDIT: It's called erosion, forgot the word for a minute)
And forests and farming are our more or less everything, so...we don't really have a choice about either curing blight and Black Soil, the only real question is whether third action should be

Settlement to ease logistics and probably support Bureaucracy choice,
Expand Shrine for better knowledge passing and more meritocracy-ish and hopefully writing, also synergy with Education choice
Expand Forests to cover more ground fighting blight, and also to claim more land for our "kingdom"
more animals because Animal Power is a force multiplier due to carrying capacity and usage in other hard work; also, more manure will probably work well with Black Soil
weaker choice, but Fishery to do *something* with all the wood from forests and ease the strain on the land by diversifying sources of food

Each of those should be done at some point, I think, question is - which one is most appropriate right now?

Hangwind · Mar 12, 2017

veekie said:
Potential ecological collapse upcoming not being a reason to reevaluate?

Not really?

Versharl said:
Are you serious? It's because we want to avert an ecological disaster that will likely cause significant damage to us and limit the possibility of expansion in the future. After all, it's a lot harder to farm on craggy rocks than on fertile hills. Just look at Greece.

Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

SpeckofStardust · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough.

The blight is at least seen as some sort of plant plague, and we kinda want to keep it from spreading because it will get worse if left alone.

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

Read previous update. Our snails almost died due to fallout of it already, and it will only get worse with time.

Motoko · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
Not really?

Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

Dude, we nearly lost our snails because of the erosion polluting the river and their habitat with silt. Erosion caused by the trees dieing off!
I'm surprised you aren't in the same boat as the rest of us, farming and trees are literally the thing we're based around. Trees dieing off are gonna be a blow to us no matter where it is.

Duesal · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
Not really?

Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

It's not exactly something we can safely ignore. Even if we have the only patch of forest left, that's really bad if we want to expand or if other tribes decide to gang up on us. One natural disaster and boom, there goes the last remaining forest.

Also, as others have pointed out, the snails were nearly wiped out due to erosion caused by a severe decline in trees.

Arbit · Mar 12, 2017

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 135 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.9

[X] Devote more assistants to the leaders, decreasing the complexity of their tasks
No. of Votes: 40

[X] Support more wise folk to serve as educators
No. of Votes: 15

Lone Wolf 666
Andres110
Athas
Carrnage
godofsmallthings
Katsuyo
Kiba
Kravot
Malevolo
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
PotentialPlateau
Powerofmind
Skjadir
Zoxabels

[X] Leave the situation as is
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

[X] tfw no pyramids
No. of Votes: 1

Pandemonious Ivy

[X] Add restrictions on succession to reduce powerful positions being held by similar families
No. of Votes: 1

Tylonius

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Main

[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
No. of Votes: 54

[X][Main] Grand Canal
No. of Votes: 2

Lone Wolf 666
PotentialPlateau

[X] [Main] Black Soil
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Secondary

[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
No. of Votes: 56

[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
No. of Votes: 25

[X] [Secondary] Expand Managed Forests
No. of Votes: 25

[X] [Secondary] Expand Place to Spirits
No. of Votes: 5

Carrnage
bluefur87
godofsmallthings
Katsuyo
Zoxabels

[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
No. of Votes: 2

Ghostdevil
Tylonius

[X] [Secondary] Expand Farms
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

Total No. of Voters: 59

zamin · Mar 12, 2017

Arbit said:
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 135 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.9

[X] Devote more assistants to the leaders, decreasing the complexity of their tasks
No. of Votes: 40

veekie
Aabcehmu
Arbit
bluefur87
butchock
Chiperninerm
Citino
ConfusedPotato
ctulhuslp
Deadly Snark
DreamerGhost
Duesal
hylas240
Ian Drash
Killer_Whale
Mannan
Marlin
McLuvin
Neptune
Nicklance
Night_stalker
Omegahugger
pbluekan
Scarecrow
ScreenWatcher
Shadow-86
Shard
Sivantic
SpeckofStardust
Theunderbolt
tri2
UbeOne
Umi-san
Varano
Versharl
VoidZero
wingstrike96
XkaliburRage
zamin
zeusthemoose

[X] Support more wise folk to serve as educators
No. of Votes: 15

Lone Wolf 666
Andres110
Athas
Carrnage
godofsmallthings
Katsuyo
Kiba
Kravot
Malevolo
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
PotentialPlateau
Powerofmind
Skjadir
Zoxabels

[X] Leave the situation as is
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

[X] tfw no pyramids
No. of Votes: 1

Pandemonious Ivy

[X] Add restrictions on succession to reduce powerful positions being held by similar families
No. of Votes: 1

Tylonius

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Main

[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
No. of Votes: 54

veekie
Aabcehmu
Andres110
Arbit
Athas
bluefur87
butchock
Carrnage
Chiperninerm
Citino
ConfusedPotato
Ct613hulu
ctulhuslp
Deadly Snark
DreamerGhost
Duesal
godofsmallthings
hylas240
Ian Drash
Katsuyo
Killer_Whale
Kravot
Malevolo
Mannan
Marlin
McLuvin
Neptune
Nicklance
Night_stalker
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
pbluekan
Powerofmind
Scarecrow
ScreenWatcher
Shadow-86
Shard
Sivantic
Skjadir
SpeckofStardust
Theunderbolt
tri2
Tylonius
UbeOne
Umi-san
Varano
Versharl
VoidZero
wingstrike96
XkaliburRage
zamin
zeusthemoose
Zoxabels

[X][Main] Grand Canal
No. of Votes: 2

Lone Wolf 666
PotentialPlateau

[X] [Main] Black Soil
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: Secondary

[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
No. of Votes: 56

veekie
Aabcehmu
Andres110
Arbit
Athas
bluefur87
butchock
Carrnage
Chiperninerm
Citino
ConfusedPotato
Ct613hulu
ctulhuslp
Deadly Snark
DreamerGhost
Duesal
godofsmallthings
hylas240
Ian Drash
Katsuyo
Killer_Whale
Kravot
Lone Wolf 666
Malevolo
Mannan
Marlin
McLuvin
Neptune
Nicklance
Night_stalker
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
pbluekan
PotentialPlateau
Powerofmind
Scarecrow
ScreenWatcher
Shadow-86
Shard
Sivantic
Skjadir
SpeckofStardust
Theunderbolt
tri2
Tylonius
UbeOne
Umi-san
Varano
Versharl
VoidZero
wingstrike96
XkaliburRage
zamin
zeusthemoose
Zoxabels

[X] [Secondary] New Settlement
No. of Votes: 25

veekie
Arbit
Athas
Chiperninerm
Deadly Snark
DreamerGhost
Ian Drash
Killer_Whale
Kravot
McLuvin
Neptune
Nicklance
Night_stalker
PotentialPlateau
Powerofmind
Scarecrow
ScreenWatcher
Shadow-86
Shard
Skjadir
Theunderbolt
Umi-san
VoidZero
wingstrike96
XkaliburRage

[X] [Secondary] Expand Managed Forests
No. of Votes: 25

Lone Wolf 666
Aabcehmu
Andres110
butchock
Citino
ConfusedPotato
Ct613hulu
ctulhuslp
Duesal
hylas240
Malevolo
Mannan
Marlin
NotAlwaysFanfic
notgreat
Omegahugger
pbluekan
Sivantic
SpeckofStardust
tri2
UbeOne
Varano
Versharl
zamin
zeusthemoose

[X] [Secondary] Expand Place to Spirits
No. of Votes: 5

Carrnage
bluefur87
godofsmallthings
Katsuyo
Zoxabels

[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
No. of Votes: 2

Ghostdevil
Tylonius

[X] [Secondary] Expand Farms
No. of Votes: 1

Ghostdevil

Total No. of Voters: 59

So we're going early bureaucracy then. Fun times!

Fight Forest Blight is clearly in the lead, as is Black Soil. However, our final option is a toss up between Expand Managed Forest and New Settlement. Quick, someone make a vote!

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Aaaand it's a tie between "Expand Forests" and "New Settlement" for the second secondary action.
Now we totally need the best argument for each side cited here to make sure which one is chosen. Because, while I voted for the Forests in hopes of synergy with curing blight, there is argument to be made for Settlement being useful for this to due to logistical reasons, and, to a lesser degree, Shrine due to preservation of knowledge..and we still aren't sure whether this setting has magic, so there is that too.

Versharl · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

Do you lack the ability to conduct long-term planning? How can you not see the problem with the deterioration of the lands just outside of our immediate control? Do you think this "new equilibrium" will help or hinder future settling of these lands? Do you think the ecology within our borders exist in isolation from the larger eco-system? I'm baffled if you're seriously advocating for simply letting the situation deteriorate.

Varano · Mar 12, 2017

Hangwind said:
Scrubland hills, sure. But the point is, it's well away from us. As long as we maintain our own area, the other areas will reach a new equilibrium soon enough. Working on all the forests everywhere will not only stretch us further than we can afford, it will actively benefit our enemies.

That new equilibrium is clearly taking the form of a dessert, we can't fight desertification after it's already set in, this is the stone age, we need to stop that shit as fast and as far from us as possible, honestly your attitude of "let's let the point-of-no-return draw closer, we're fine" is bafling.

keenscythe · Mar 12, 2017

[X] Devote more assistants to the leaders, decreasing the complexity of their tasks
[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Versharl said:
Do you lack the ability to conduct long-term planning? How can you not see the problem with the deterioration of the lands just outside of our immediate control? Do you think this "new equilibrium" will help or hinder future settling of these lands? Do you think the ecology within our borders exist in isolation from the larger eco-system? I'm baffled if you're seriously advocating for simply letting the situation deteriorate.

Well, they will reach an equilibrium. He didn't say anything about it not being harmful to us, only noted that expanding our zone of control too much may create some overextension, which could be a valid point, but we are already building pretty "tall", cooped up in the valley and hills for the most part.

Which is why I want to build New Trails to the north to assimilate new tribes and build walls there - they will be decent fortified outpost from which we can send missions to the plains. And animals. Imagine how much more efficient will be grazing in the plains instead of goddamn mountains.
We need to expand either north or south. Support it by War Wagons if we need mobile power projection, maybe, but we are really a bit too conservative in our growth.

Athas · Mar 12, 2017

Well I prefer New Settlement mostly because I wanted it for some time, I'm pretty sure we just did Manage Forests last turn, and a new settlement could result in some really good improvements in the long run (and we definitely have the population density to spare for a new village).
Pioneering Spirit will help it (and is a temporary social value which will be gone sooner or later).

UbeOne · Mar 12, 2017

I prefer expanding the managed forests since it has synergy with fighting the forest blight, but having a new settlement has its merits too.

ctulhuslp · Mar 12, 2017

Athas said:
Well I prefer New Settlement mostly because I wanted it for some time, I'm pretty sure we just did Manage Forests last turn, and a new settlement could result in some really good improvements in the long run (and we definitely have the population density to spare for a new village).
Pioneering Spirit will help it (and is a temporary social value which will be gone sooner or later).

But we need to look at other patches of forests to make sure we stop desertification.
I am honestly not sure which one is better, and would be fine with a coin flip, but keenscythe has already voted for Settlement.

Zoxabels · Mar 12, 2017

[X] Support more wise folk to serve as educators
[X] [Main] Fight Forest Blight
[X] [Secondary] Black Soil
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement

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