Optimal ROMANIA Post World War One Borders Survey

[Zagan7]

Optimal ROMANIA Post World War One Borders Survey



The purpose of this thread is to find the best possible borders for Romania after World War One. You can use whatever measure to determine the best possible borders, be it national borders, cultural or historical claims, or strategic importance.

Link to original thread on AlternateHistory.com (public part of the forum), containing additional maps posted by various users.

Seeing that I cross-posted some of my threads to this forum, @Futurist asked me about this thread, so here it is.



Map of Romania and Adjacent Areas
(superimposed over Google Maps for reference)

Do not use this map for colouring purposes!



Key:

1. United Principalities Wallachia and Moldavia (part of Romania 1862-present, massive Romanian majority, not claimed by anyone)
2. Herța Region, United Principalities Wallachia and Moldavia (part of Romania 1862-1940, 1941-1944, massive Romanian majority, not claimed by anyone)
3. Northern Dobruja (historical claim, part of Romania 1878-1918, 1919-present, Romanian majority, Bulgarian and Turkish minorities, claimed by Bulgaria)
4. Danube Delta riverine islands, Northern Dobruja (historical claim, part of Romania 1878-1918, 1919-1948, claimed by Bulgaria as part of Northern Dobruja)
5. Silistra and environs (historical claim, proposal to assign it to Romania in 1878, part of Romania 1913-1918, 1919-1940, mixed Bulgarian and Turkish population, small Romanian minority, claimed by Bulgaria)
6. Part of Southern Dobruja (historical claim, part of Romania 1913-1918, 1919-1940, mixed Bulgarian and Turkish population, small Romanian minority, claimed by Bulgaria)
7. The rest of Southern Dobruja (historical claim, part of Romania, 1913-1918, 1919-1940, mixed Bulgarian and Turkish population, small Romanian minority, claimed by Bulgaria)
8. "Rusciuc-Varna Line" (annexation proposal in 1913, mixed Bulgarian and Turkish population, almost no Romanians)
9. Part of Vidin Region (important Romanian minority / plurality)
10. The rest of Vidin Region (small Romanian minority)
11. Part of Timoc Region with Romanian majority
12. The rest of Timoc Region (Romanian minority)
13. Southern Bukovina (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-present, Romanian majority, Ukrainian minority, claimed by West Ukraine)
14. Northern Bukovina (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-1940, 1941-1944, mixed population, claimed by West Ukraine)
15. Pokuttya (historical claim, Romanian administration 1919, small Romanian minority, claimed by West Ukraine, Poland)
16. Central Bessarabia (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-1940, 1941-1944, part of Moldova 1991-present, clear Romanian majority, claimed by the Soviet Union)
17. Găgăuz Region, Bessarabia (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-1940, 1941-1944, part of Moldova 1991-present, mixed population, claimed by the Soviet Union)
18. Northern Bessarabia (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-1940, 1941-1944, mixed population, claimed by the Soviet Union)
19. Southern Bessarabia / the Budjak (serious historical claim, part of Romania 1918-1940, 1941-1944, mixed population, claimed by the Soviet Union)
20. Present day Transnistria / part of Moldavian ASSR (historical claim, part of Romania 1941-1944, part of Moldova 1991-present, de facto 1991-1992, Romanian plurality)
21. The rest of Moldavian ASSR (historical claim, part of Romania 1941-1944, important Romanian minority)
22. Southern Transnistria / Yedisan (historical claim, part of Romania 1941-1944, small Romanian minority)
23. Northern Transnistria (part of Romania 1941-1944, almost no Romanians)
24. Southern Transylvania Proper (part of Romania 1918-present, clear Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary)
25. Northern Transylvania Proper (part of Romania 1918-1940, 1944-present, Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary)
26. Szekler Land / Hungarian Autonomous Region (part of Romania 1918-1940, 1944-present, important Romanian minority, claimed by Hungary)
27. Romanian Banat (part of Romania 1919-present, Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary, Serbia)
28. Part of Serbian Banat without Serbian plurality (mixed population)
29. The rest of Serbian Banat (Serbian plurality, Romanian minority)
30. Hungarian Banat (Hungarian plurality, Romanian minority)
31. Southern Crișana / Southern Partium (part of Romania 1918-present, clear Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary)
32. Northern Crișana / Northern Partium (part of Romania 1918-1940, 1944-present, Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary)
33. Cenad and Bichiș Counties (part of Romania 1919-1920, important Romanian minority, claimed by Hungary)
34. Tisa Plain (Romanian administration 1919-1920, small Romanian minority)
35. Part of Tisa Plain in Czechoslovak Ruthenia (Romanian administration 1919-1920, small Romanian minority)
36. Southern Maramureș (part of Romania 1918-1940, 1944-present, clear Romanian majority, claimed by Hungary)
37. Part of Northern Maramureș with Romanian plurality (part of Romania 1919, claimed by Hungary, West Ukraine, Czechoslovakia)
38. The rest of Northern Maramureș (part of Romania 1919, Ukrainian majority, small Romanian minority, claimed by Hungary, West Ukraine, Czechoslovakia)
39. The rest of Carpatho-Ukraine (almost no Romanians)
40. Overseas Colonies
41. Territories with Aromanian plurality in N Greece, E Albania, Serbian Macedonia, SW Bulgaria (annexation or independent / puppet state)
42. Territories with Aromanian minorities in N Greece, E Albania, Serbian Macedonia, SW Bulgaria (annexation or independent / puppet state)

.


Ethnic Map of Romania and Adjacent Areas

Do not use this map for colouring purposes!



Note: Please excuse the distorsions. It was an old map of unknown projection and I could not fit it perfectly over Google Maps Web Mercator.

Original Map Link



My Vote

Do not use this map for colouring purposes!



The five levels:

• Priority 1 (Violet): Must be acquired at all cost;
• Priority 2 (Blue): May be sought once all of Priority 1 is acquired;
• Priority 3 (Green): May be sought once all of Priority 2 is acquired (secondary importance);
• Keep If Offered (Yellow): Keep territory if offered by other countries, otherwise do not claim;
• Keep Out (Red): Do not claim (negatives outweigh the benefits).

.
Additional colours include:

• Water (Sea Blue): Black Sea;
• Core Romania (Dark Grey): Always part of Romania (you should leave it like that);
• Not Under Consideration (Light Grey): Absolutely no reason to include / never even mentioned.

.


Use the following Blank Map please. Colour it according to your own rationale.
(no labels and pixelated borders, for easy colouring in Paint)



You may download it from here.


Thank you.

 

[Susano]

That ethnic map seems rather, uhhh, biased towards Romanians. I've never seen the Szeklerland so "cut apart" by Romanian on any ethnic/language maps before.

And of course, the problem with those maps is that you have to abide by the pre-marked territories For example, I do think the Partium (31/32) should go to Romania, but not Arad or Sathmar/Satu Mare, or generally the western parts of those areas... And I think the northwestern part of 27 had a large German minority, which could influence considerations, but not the rest of 27... Or of course, the Königsboden in Southern Transylvania, the main area of the Transylvanian Saxons.

Also, is there a reason why areas sometimes don't align with actual state borders? Like 18, 23, 26...

 

[Lowtuff]

We should always be very critical of the nationalism that this sort of thing is generally rooted in, but hey.



Fairly simple, purple as described is anathema. Blue areas are solidly Romanian and while acceptable treatment of minorities is anything but assured in post-ww1 europe, it shouldn't be impossible to secure an acceptable level of autonomy for the green areas and for minorities nationwide. Yellow areas are of specific national interest to ensure the good treatment of and friendly relations with neighbouring romanian minorities but are probably best left at that.

While further expansion is all fine and good under a model of cultural, religious and political pluralism alongside the consent of the governed, the population of grey areas would likely prefer to be part of other states. The rights and wellbeing of local Romanian & other minority communities in the grey areas is best secured by friendly relations & cooperation with neighouring governments.

 

[Zagan7]

1. That ethnic map seems rather, uhhh, biased towards Romanians. I've never seen the Szeklerland so "cut apart" by Romanian on any ethnic/language maps before.

2. And of course, the problem with those maps is that you have to abide by the pre-marked territories For example, I do think the Partium (31/32) should go to Romania, but not Arad or Sathmar/Satu Mare, or generally the western parts of those areas... And I think the northwestern part of 27 had a large German minority, which could influence considerations, but not the rest of 27... Or of course, the Königsboden in Southern Transylvania, the main area of the Transylvanian Saxons.

3. Also, is there a reason why areas sometimes don't align with actual state borders? Like 18, 23, 26...

Click to shrink...

1. Purple means over 20% Romanians.

2. Yes, that is a problem.
Yes, the cities (Arad, Oradea, Satu Mare) had a Hungarian majority after World War One. They were included in Romania because most of the surrounding villages were Romanian and in order to include the strategically important railroad linking those cities.
The Germans largely, publically and quite vocally welcomed Romanian rule instead of Hungarian rule in 1918/1919.

3. Most areas align with formerly or currently existing borders. Clockwise from the north.
18 (Northern Bessarabia): former Dniester border (Romania - Poland, Romania - USSR), current border (Moldova - Ukraine), current Pruth border (Romania - Ukraine), former border (Russian Empire - Austria-Hungary).
23 (Northern Transnistria): northern borders of the former Romanian occupation / annexation area in the Soviet Union during World War Two, former northern border of the Moldavian ASSR, former Dniester border of Romania.
26 (Szeklerland): Average borders of the historic Szekler Land / first Hungarian Autonomous Region / second Mures Hungarian Autonomous Region / current area claimed by Szekler autonomists / secessionists. (If I tried to fit all four territories with slightly different borders, it would have resulted in dozens of small bits and pieces, absurdly complicating the map.)
Believe me, most if not all of the borders on that map have historical significance. It would be very tedious to provide such explanations for all of them.

1. We should always be very critical of the nationalism that this sort of thing is generally rooted in, but hey.

[Map]

2. Fairly simple, purple as described is anathema. Blue areas are solidly Romanian and while acceptable treatment of minorities is anything but assured in post-ww1 europe, it shouldn't be impossible to secure an acceptable level of autonomy for the green areas and for minorities nationwide. Yellow areas are of specific national interest to ensure the good treatment of and friendly relations with neighbouring romanian minorities but are probably best left at that.

3. While further expansion is all fine and good under a model of cultural, religious and political pluralism alongside the consent of the governed, the population of grey areas would likely prefer to be part of other states. The rights and wellbeing of local Romanian & other minority communities in the grey areas is best secured by friendly relations & cooperation with neighouring governments.

Click to shrink...

1. The desire of a people to unite into a single country is not something bad.

2. Okay.
Not being part of the USSR should also be considered a bonus for most people living in the yellow areas in the east.

3. That's reasonable.

 

[Susano]

Most areas align with formerly or currently existing borders. Clockwise from the north.

Click to shrink...

Well, I guess I mostly meant the ethnic overlay map (and ah, at least 20%, that makes sense, right). The Szeklerland region's eastern border is not in fact aligned with the Romanian/Transylvanian border there, and northern Podolia (23) ends up with a bit of Bessarabia on the other side of the river. Or is that just an unfortunate map overlay and not meant to be that way?

And yes, I know the border in the west was basically defined by the railroad, but well, it doesn't need to be that way. A purely ethnic border would cut the railroad apart, at several points even, but that might still have been the better option.

Oh, and I know that, of course, the Germans welcomed Romania because the Kingdom of Hungary was really terrible about ethnic minorities, but since we are doing this not in terms of "yes/no", but gradual ratings, it could still affect things. As in, Romanian-majority regions are probably a higher priority than regions even of a welcoming minority.

 

[Zagan7]

1. Well, I guess I mostly meant the ethnic overlay map (and ah, at least 20%, that makes sense, right). The Szeklerland region's eastern border is not in fact aligned with the Romanian/Transylvanian border there, and northern Podolia (23) ends up with a bit of Bessarabia on the other side of the river. Or is that just an unfortunate map overlay and not meant to be that way?

2. And yes, I know the border in the west was basically defined by the railroad, but well, it doesn't need to be that way. A purely ethnic border would cut the railroad apart, at several points even, but that might still have been the better option.

3. Oh, and I know that, of course, the Germans welcomed Romania because the Kingdom of Hungary was really terrible about ethnic minorities, but since we are doing this not in terms of "yes/no", but gradual ratings, it could still affect things. As in, Romanian-majority regions are probably a higher priority than regions even of a welcoming minority.

Click to shrink...

1. Oh. But I did explain the mis-allignment in the original post:

Note: Please excuse the distorsions. It was an old map of unknown projection and I could not fit it perfectly over Google Maps Web Mercator.

Click to shrink...

I know that there are some map tools which do quite a good job of aligning mis-matched maps but I have neither access to them nor the knowledge to operate them.
I only used stretch and skew in an ordinary graphics program with no georeferencing capabilities.

2. That is correct and it would have been okay if the two countries were friendly with each other and the border kept open.

3. I see. Yes, I could have used more regions (smaller ones). Maybe some other time.

 

[Susano]

Right. Here's my ideas.

First variant, not quite keeping to the rules of the survey:



Of course, those are rather symbolic than exact intra-region borders I drew there.

Romania should of course, under any and all circumstances, get the Romanian-majority areas of Transylvania, Bessarabia and Bukovina. And really, the Szeklerland and the mixed ethnic mass that is South Bessarabia don't really have anywhere else to go, either. The Szeklerland as an enclave fully surrounded by Romania makes little sense. So that's priority 2 and should also pursued, as should be the clear Romanian majority areas outside aforementioned regions, i.e., the eastern parts of 31 and 32.

As for priority 3 (green):
-If Romania can, getting that railroad in the west makes sense, but it should be a lower priority than getting the ethnic Romanian regions.
-Ideally, the Timoc region should be Romanian, but it's hard to see how that could happen with Romania and Serbia having been on the same side of the war, so that's only priority 3.
-It's similar with the "Moldavian ASSR": At least Transnistria should ideally be Romanian, but it also kind of makes sense to keep the river as the border to the sort-of-threat that is the USSR, so only priority 3
-Conversely, the interwar Dobrudja border was a mistake, but it is difficult to see how Bulgaria could not be forced to cede land. Therefore the northern part of the Southern Dobrudja is priority 3, and the northern part of the Vidin region can be demanded if Romania gets the Timoc region. The southern part of the Southern Dobrudja only if everything goes alright (priority 4)
-Pokuttya is the home of the Hutzul sub-group of the Rusyn people. So if Romania can do something like establish a Hutzul autonomy there, this could be a prospect, but really, only priority 3.

And as for priority 4:
-If, for some reason, Podolia falls into Romanian hands, then good on Romania - there is even another river on the east to be used as a border! But it really shouldn't be something to be pursued.
-Likewise, if someone gifts a colony to Romania, great, but seriously spending efforts on colonial adventures is a pipedream.
-As for eastern Transcarpathia, the issue there it's that it's mountains and valleys, so there is a certain argument to be made to not cut off or divide valleys, and hence it could end up with Romania. But again, only if luck strikes.
-And the Banat was a multiethnic mess, so if Romania has some sort of concept on how to handle it, they could try to go for it all. But that is a big if, and not worth much political capital, so priority 4.
-You could go for an Arumanian independent state... certainly not annexation over such distances. Problem is just that it the Arumanians apparently themselves didn't want that and were quite eager to assimilate into the local Greek and Slavic nations. Still, if everything happens the right way, it's a possible project, but hence indeed only priority 4. But the Arumanians are too spread out as is. Such a state should only cover the Arumanian plurality areas, and even then they will have a lot of minorities there...

And now, if you want something more along the lines of the actual survey borders , it would hence be:



If regions 27, 31 and 32 can only be gained all at once or not at all, then they are lower priority than the Szeklerland and Southern Bessarabia.

 

[Zagan7]

@Susano
Thanks.
That's the best and most detailed analysis I ever got.

Oh, and splitting regions is okay. I can easily get an average from that.