More like Gabriel demonstrates that Knights have no issue with trollmen... that doesn't necessarily translate to other underground threats.

Do we actually know if Gabriel is feeling anything? Feels like something we should ask him.
Christianity does not really have something that says going underground is profane. God is everywhere I suppose. There might be something about messing with dead people and Purity memes but not necessarily about being below ground I imagine.
 
Speaking of which, for AOE, do we think trying to get Firestorm (Probably Emberwind+Ignition) or Wildfire to be the better choice?
 
Okay, but svartalfar aren't comparable to trollmen at all? Like, seven of them were enough to take out three hundred trollmen with no issue. Not to mention that they're trained combatants, they have magic and can craft items second only to dwarves. They also outnumber us.

Like, we can probably beat them, but certainly not without risk - and then there's the fact that if we stay here too long, we'll lose hamjngja. I'm not confident we can take these guys down with enough time to spare for us to take down an entire trollmen nest. Don't see why we should spend our orthstirr and armour health on these guys.

There's being 'tested', and then there's taking needless risks. If we didn't have to take care of the trollmen, I'd advocate for taking these svartalfar down, but we can't afford to get bogged down by these guys right now.

Sure, the Svartalves are not comparable to trollmen. But we can probably beat the Svartalves, and then all we've got left that we were planning on terms of fights is more trollmen, so it seems fine?

Fights are the most effective way we get cool stuff, so it seems like there's a pretty obvious motivation to want to fight strong enemies who we think we can beat.

Re-reading though, the hamingja thing does seem to be a concern, though I'm unsure if an extra fifteen minutes fighting wil make a difference. We're probably going to have to backtrack from this chamber whether we fight them or not.
 
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So, two points about the svartalfar I think is worth noting:

1) svartalfar are proto dwarves, meaning they are old, as a race.... Kinda similar to the neanderthals. That's probably why the enemy uses them sometimes.

2) We know they are good fighters and the trollman are not, there might be 300+ trollman corpse in the pile, but it does not mean they all were killed in the same battle. More likely group by group, like that scout party of 60.

Also, with all the corpses there, the corpse stench would draw in the idiots easily, just need a starting carcass and patience.


Still, a bit of talk now, perhaps some trade from time to time... It can benefit us greatly....

And we can always ask second opinion from clan ducklings, if not straight up ask them to be translators or intermediaries.
 
I think the Enemy uses Svartalfar simply because it has more influence underground which makes them easier to influence. Plus Odin's anti-enemy countermeasures are probably less effective down far from the sky. Hamingja is divine favor and depletes underground, after all.

Plus I suspect that the Enemy has more... influence, so to say, away from places of culture or law. The Enemy metaphysically is the wilds before humanity, after all. The land before it was tamed to humanity, humanity before culture arose.
 
Sure, the Svartalves are not comparable to trollmen. But we can probably beat the Svartalves, and then all we've got left that we were planning on terms of fights is more trollmen, so it seems fine?

My point wasn't that we couldn't beat them. My point was 'would we have enough orthstirr left over to beat hundreds of trollmen?'.

Admittedly, I think I'm exacerbating the issue somewhat... although swarming is still a very real possibility, and Imperial has said troll men aren't above sacrificing themselves to pin down a greater foe.

Then there's the issue of hamingja, which I see no reason to risk at all. I'd rather lose out on orthstirr gain then lose hamingja.

Ultimately, my point is that I don't think the rewards are worth the risk.
 
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My point wasn't that we could beat them. My point was would we have enough orthstirr left over to beat hundreds of trollmen.

Admittedly, I think I'm exacerbating the issue somewhat... although swarming is still a very real possibility, and Imperial has said troll men aren't above sacrificing themselves to pin down a greater foe.

Then there's the issue of hamingja, which I see no reason to risk at all. I'd rather lose out on orthstirr gain then lose hamingja.

Ultimately, my point is that I don't think the rewards are worth the risk.

Fair enough. Wanting to be diplomatic and not fight when we don't need to is definitely always valid.

...I'm going to be honest that a lot of my motivation was that I really would like to see what the Svartalves are like in a fight, and what kind of cool stuff they can do. 😅

But I'm sure we'll get the chance sooner or later anyway.
 
So, I am asking this again, because they got buried (heh) by the tread.
Does locking someone in the dark (underground) counts as a cruel and unusual punishment?

.... Is dragon heart blood the panacea/snake oil thats good for everything and cures all ills?
And a new question as well:
IF, is getting a sunlight hugreida possible? And if yes, would that counter things that are weak to sunlight, like trolls or the bad luck underground?
 
[X] Talk to them first, let's see if they can understand Norse.
-[X] Tell them we're just here to kill Troll-Men, thank them for doing some of that for us, offer them food and company if they want. Or to work together if they're also here to kill Troll-Men?
 
[X] Talk to them first, let's see if they can understand Norse.
-[X] Tell them we're just here to kill Troll-Men, thank them for doing some of that for us, offer them food and company if they want. Or to work together if they're also here to kill Troll-Men?
 
[X] Talk to them first, let's see if they can understand Norse.
-[X] Tell them we're just here to kill Troll-Men, thank them for doing some of that for us, gift them food in gratitude.
[X] Pull back, this isn't worth it
 
Do consider, it would give better defenses than our mail currently does though. Probably enough to disregard mundane attacks like from trollmans and significantly reduce the dice needed for even singular defences.....
And that's without defensive reflexes.....

I admit, it wouldn't change much for our battle plans, what with we already only defending against tricks, most of the time, but would provide more ablative before endurance damage.

But also, runed plate armor.

I'm pretty sure Defensive Reflexes is actually an anti-synergy with good armor...the selling point is to make our Basic Defenses better, that's not needed with heavy armor (which does the same thing), especially not with Frenzy on top of it. But that said, I'm not saying plate armor wouldn't be really nice, I'm just noting that, mechanically, it would not be Knight Armor or do what Knight Armor does. It'd be good, especially with Runes, but it would mostly just be better conventional armor (which is fabulous mind you), not grant immunity to nonmagical attacks like Knight Armor does.

So, I don't actually want to add the Svartalfar to our party, mostly because we kinda have to pop out back in the sun to avoid negative Hamingja and that would totally stone the Svartalfar, but gifts should be fine for building up a rapport.

We're not asking them to join us permanently and we can easily leave them at, like, the tunnel crossing while we head up for a bit if they understand Norse.

On that note,

If our Fylgja just like, sunbathes while we're underground, would that avert the negative Hamingja aspect of being underground? Or vice versa, if we did the adventure as our Fylgja while sunbathing.

We should definitely do this. Leaving our Fylgja up in the sun seems like a good plan. It might not work, but it's worth a shot.

Are there any methods we know of for norsemen to turn into bears?

Blackhand mentioned fighting someone who could do something like this so a way exists. We don't know what it is, though.

Part of the reason why I'm personally fine with voting to just attack them is because I think Halla is a warrior from a society where attacking people you exist in a state of "war" with is pretty normal? And the Svartalves are noted to commonly serve the enemy, they've brandished weapons, etc..

One can absolutely argue we should wait to ascertain their intentions, etc., and morally I would agree. But morally I also personally wouldn't be in favour of raiding towns, or thralldom, so... I think people should vote for whatever they want here.

I mean, the Svartalves were actually not noted to commonly serve the Enemy, the note was "The Enemy is fond of using them in its schemes." That's actually a super different statement that I think is worth noting. Being used by the Enemy, from what we know of the Enemy, doesn't necessarily involve choosing to serve it, it's happy to trick people and set them against each other. Some likely do serve the Enemy, but I wouldn't assume that's true of even all of them the Enemy makes use of.

Also, Blackhand is not particularly in favor of thralldom and Halla is having serious second thoughts about raiding towns having actually done it. She's not nearly as morally opposed to either as we the Questers, but I think she's not really in favor of either of those things for the most part.

Speaking of which, for AOE, do we think trying to get Firestorm (Probably Emberwind+Ignition) or Wildfire to be the better choice?

I'm skeptical you can just use an Alloy with one of the things you made the Alloy from directly to get a new Hugareida. From what we know, Firestorm requires Wildfire, which would mean it takes up two Alloy slots and be a bit rich for our blood here, though for pure AoE it is supposedly better.

I'm not sure we actually need more AoE, though. Troll-Men are not the toughest foes and the only enemies we're likely to need AoE against in the near future.
 
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Also, Blackhand is not particularly in favor of thralldom and Halla is having serious second thoughts about raiding towns having actually done it. She's not nearly as morally opposed to either as we the Questers, but I think she's not really in favor of either of those things for the most part.

When did Halla express that she was opposed to raiding?
 
When did Halla express that she was opposed to raiding?

I didn't say she was opposed, exactly, but there have been a few different references to feeling legitimately bad about the visual of the Knight and his destroyed garden. For example:

Now that you're a farmer and a mother in truth, you can't help but empathize with the Knight as he watched his hard work be demolished around him. How it would feel for your fields to turn to stomp-churned mud and trampled plants, to have the knowledge that your death would see to the destruction of all you lived for.

It would simply...

Swallowing the dryness in your throat, a surge of potent willpower has you back on the matter at hand.

I'm pretty sure she's not enthusiastic about doing that to other people. She would if she felt she needed to, but not happily.
 
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I'm pretty sure Defensive Reflexes is actually an anti-synergy with good armor...the selling point is to make our Basic Defenses better, that's not needed with heavy armor (which does the same thing), especially not with Frenzy on top of it. But that said, I'm not saying plate armor wouldn't be really nice, I'm just noting that, mechanically, it would not be Knight Armor or do what Knight Armor does. It'd be good, especially with Runes, but it would mostly just be better conventional armor (which is fabulous mind you), not grant immunity to nonmagical attacks like Knight Armor does.
Eh, I never said knight armor? I just want the defensive bonus from platemail.
And also the ablative health.
The option to put runes on it is just a bonus.
-1 Superior Mail Shirt (Forged Iron) (9/17 Armor, +4 to Defense) (13 Orthstirr Reserve)
Our current mail armor provides a +4 to any defensive roll.
That should be a flat 7 on average for a mundane defense roll, or 10 with DTR.
Aaaand I can't find, if Imperial Fister ever said how much DR or bonus to defense plate would provide, but I remember it coming up....
 
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Eh, I never said knight armor? I just want the defensive bonus from mail.
And also the ablative health.
The option to put runes on it is just a bonus.

Sure, I was just noting that my original point was purely that plate armor wouldn't be Knight Armor, not arguing against plate armor. Just clarifying my own position, I suppose.

Our current mail armor provides a +4 to any defensive roll.
That should be a flat 7 on average for a mundane defense roll, or 10 with DTR.

It's actually 11 average due to Frenzy, and likely to be 13 average due to Frenzy in a little over a year, probably more once we add a Helm. And my point is that the advantage in that is that it's higher than basic or Honed attacks can roll...and 11 or 13 is already so high that adding Defense Attuned Reflexes will almost never matter in that situation, being in excess to requirements. And we have Skyfire adding a die on top of that in most fights as well, so we're actually averaging 15 on basic defenses in most fights right now, 17 with Frenzy 6, more with a Helm.

The numbers stack, sure, but everything past a certain point is wasted most of the time, and we're probably hitting 2d6+10 or something like that in most fights even without Defense Attuned Reflexes pretty soon, which makes taking it a waste since it won't be useful at all in the vast majority of combats.

None of that is an argument against plate armor, mind you, just against combining it with Defense Attuned Reflexes.

Aaaand I can't find, if Imperial Fister ever said how much DR or bonus to defense plate would provide, but I remember it coming up....

He's definitely never said. I'm pretty sure I'd remember that. There was some speculation before we even got Mail, but most of it was wrong.
 
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Yeah, basically, the thing is, a Norse take on Plate is mostly going to be valuable because you can inscribe a whole fucking Saga onto that amount of surface area, I suspect it would be inferior to Knightly Armor in consistent performance, but would likely be able to spike extremely high as long as you can fill the runes with something proper.

Like, it might genuinely require an actual Odr per Turn upkeep to sustain it or at least a high Orthstirr cost if that counts as a filling, but likely have incredibly powerful effects.

Joking aside though, my fixation on this boils down to "Stormlight Archives is very cool and Shardplate is a good portion of that". Is that really so wrong?
 
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Yeah, basically, the thing is, a Norse take on Plate is mostly going to be valuable because you can inscribe a whole fucking Saga onto that amount of surface area, I suspect it would be inferior to Knightly Armor in consistent performance, but would likely be able to spike extremely high as long as you can fill the runes with something proper.

Like, it might genuinely require an actual Odr per Turn upkeep to sustain it or at least a high Orthstirr cost if that counts as a filling, but likely have incredibly powerful effects.

Yeah, we've been told it's one Runed item per Capacity, but with the surface area on a set of runed plate, that could result in something seriously impressive.

Learning to make it is probably a long-term goal, though. Like, probably multiple generations kinda long term.
 
I mean, the Svartalves were actually not noted to commonly serve the Enemy, the note was "The Enemy is fond of using them in its schemes." That's actually a super different statement that I think is worth noting. Being used by the Enemy, from what we know of the Enemy, doesn't necessarily involve choosing to serve it, it's happy to trick people and set them against each other. Some likely do serve the Enemy, but I wouldn't assume that's true of even all of them the Enemy makes use of.

I'm not sure if it's a super significant difference or just a wording choice? We should ask @Imperial Fister and check, because you're right, it would be significant if it was, and actually says something about how the Enemy operates.

Although honestly, a lot of the servants of the Enemy might be being trapped or used as unwilling catspaws to some extent. The Enemy certainly does not seem like the type to want to help other species better themselves out of kindness; it seems like it would probably try and stop all sentient species using fire or even tools if it could. The Foe-Men and the Troll-Men might also be victims in a sense too, perhaps lacking the intellect to make better choices. (Not to take us too far down the "evil races in fantasy" rabbithole...)

There's a broader unexplored question here of whether this setting has the equivalent of "Demonic Cultivators" common to other settings; people who make Faustian bargains with the Enemy for power or knowledge? Horra seemed to be into some shady shit as we unravelled his schemes, but it's not really definitive. Blackhand might know, but it makes me wonder in light of some of his general disdain for the Steelfathers, not to mention the warband(s) who killed him and are implied to be looking for the fragments of the "weapon"...

...I suppose one aspect of this is that because so much is secret, a lot of guys like Horra or Blackhand's killers might be servants of the Enemy without necessarily knowing that they are.
 
Yeah, basically, the thing is, a Norse take on Plate is mostly going to be valuable because you can inscribe a whole fucking Saga onto that amount of surface area, I suspect it would be inferior to Knightly Armor in consistent performance, but would likely be able to spike extremely high as long as you can fill the runes with something proper.

Like, it might genuinely require an actual Odr per Turn upkeep to sustain it or at least a high Orthstirr cost if that counts as a filling, but likely have incredibly powerful effects.

Joking aside though, my fixation on this boils down to "Stormlight Archives is very cool and Shardplate is a good portion of that". Is that really so wrong?
I suspect what you would want to do is to inscribe your own personal saga onto the plate. That would make it one-person only, which is in line with Knightly Plate. I suspect Varangian Plate doesn't work like that, it probably goes with the Varangian or ERE Saga instead.

A big question would be whether such a plate would have a truckload of Orthsirr, or combat-regenerating Orthsirr.

Also for some reason my brain interpreted plate as in the plate for food and displays instead of plate as in plated armor, and now I'm wondering if Xianxiaverse Norse Plates all have intricately carved beautiful runes for every piece of cookware.

###

If there's any Odr cost for making a Sagaplate/Runeplate, I imagine it would likely be an upfront cost. Gotta stuff a shitton of Odr to jumpstart the Armor's Spirit and all. Probably 9+, and it even may be that the best ones need like 27, 81, etc.
 
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