If Horra becomes an Outlaw, would his land and the people living on it be considered a bandit camp or something similar? Or would Horra be forced to give up his farm (which I highly doubt he'd actually do)? Would all of his farmhands and children be considered Outlaws, too?
 
Hey Blackhand,

1) Do you recognize any of Horra's doings as being based on some non-norse cultivation system?
2) Would you say that The Enemy, is.. dead, literally or metaphorically?
3) Given how Horra's Draugr all seem to be based on the same BRING BACK DEATH rune, would a specific counter-rune to that be able to just.. invalidate his Draugr army?
 
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If Horra becomes an Outlaw, would his land and the people living on it be considered a bandit camp or something similar? Or would Horra be forced to give up his farm (which I highly doubt he'd actually do)? Would all of his farmhands and children be considered Outlaws, too?

It reverts to his closest family member who isn't Outlawed, and if he stays there, they get Outlawed too for giving him aid and comfort.

The important thing is that metaphysically speaking, he's now an Intruder, and he can't take advantage of Owning Land to give himself any conceptual advantages. I think this also severs any Thralls that are bonded to him either, because Outlaws aren't allowed to own property.
 
@Imperial Fister to what extent, if at all, does Halla (and her advisors/mentors) understand what Seidr fundamentally is?
Not as well as, say, a dedicated user of it, but she knows that it involves the mind more than it does the body.

Furthermore, is Halla still allowed to study it or did she close that door when she chose to live within the warrior honor culture?
She is still allowed to

Also, @Imperial Fister, is the term nalbinding or nailbinding?
Needlebinding is the translation used for this Quest.

@Imperial Fister in a lot of ways this is a meta-question...are we likely to have to (or even get to) fight Horra on this coming turn if we get him outlawed, or will it likely be at least another turn afterwards and an action invested? That's sort of a question of how much we can do on one turn, which is why it seems like a meta-question.
You'll get a choice to attack immediately, which means that you'll have to eat a point of odrengskapr in order to catch Horra when he's not prepared — a dreng does not rush into things — or you can wait a turn.
Doing a bit of online searching I found a thesis on Outlawry Crimes in Medieval Iceland.
Good find!
Nice.

2 Reward Dice to you.
Very cool, another Reward Dice

You're really pumping these out. That's impressive!
If Horra becomes an Outlaw, would his land and the people living on it be considered a bandit camp or something similar? Or would Horra be forced to give up his farm (which I highly doubt he'd actually do)? Would all of his farmhands and children be considered Outlaws, too?
Depends on the level of outlawing.

Lesser Outlawing banishes the individual for three years and strips them of most of the law's protections. However, their property is not confiscated so they can, upon the three years passing, return to society. There are certain proceedings that a lesser outlaw has to follow in order to retain some of their immunities, if they don't then they are deemed full outlaws.

Full Outlawing banishes the individual, strips them of the law's protections, and confiscates their property. Anyone who helps a full outlaw can face outlawing themselves. Anyone can come and kill them with impunity.
1) Do you recognize any of Horra's doings as being based on some non-norse cultivation system?
'Not as far as I can recall, no. Nothing he is doing is beyond the bounds of seid.'
2) Would you say that The Enemy, is.. dead, literally or metaphorically?
'Both. But things such as it do not suffer death easily.'
3) Given how Horra's Draugr all seem to be based on the same BRING BACK DEATH rune, would a specific counter-rune to that be able to just.. invalidate his Draugr army?
'Possibly, but it would be one at a time.'

0~0~0

Sorry if I missed anything, I've been a bit distracted as of late.

Anyways, I'll call voting in 30 minutes.
 
Ahh, so us doing all the evidence collection is important, as that's the difference between a lesser Outlawing that still lets him use his farm as a fortress, and a Full Outlawing that forces him to start from Square One and cuts him off from any allies and thralls he has because he's not legally allowed to own anything anymore since all of his property has been repossessed.

Shame we can't immediately cascade that into a fight, but I don't think he has anywhere left to hide after this, does he? He's still going to have to make his stand.
 
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We might not have time to reforge anything. I'd much rather eat the odrengskapr. Anytime we give him to prepare increases the chance of someone dying.

Hey blackhand, do you know of any armor tricks we could learn? Something to either minimize damage or boost how much damage our armor can take?
 
We might not have time to reforge anything. I'd much rather eat the odrengskapr. Anytime we give him to prepare increases the chance of someone dying.

Hm. If we did this, would it impact how other people views us? Specifically our huskarls and friends. I could see Steinarr and Abjorn being fine with jumping Horra immediately, but I wonder how Tryggr, Halfdan, Folkmarr, etc. will see it.
 
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By the way, @Imperial Fister, is there a typical amount of Drengskapr that your average Norse(wo)man would have? Is Halla your ideal Drengr, or is she about expected?
There isn't a typical amount of drengskapr, you are either positive or negative. However, Halla is well respected.
Hey blackhand, do you know of any armor tricks we could learn? Something to either minimize damage or boost how much damage our armor can take?
'Armor-Layer — or, as Steinarr calls it, Reinforce-Shield — is a good standard to have. There's Attack-Trade, which sacrifices a shield or armor in exchange for delivering a return attack of your own. Shield-Catch and Deflect-Parry are both decent defense tricks in general. Counter-Parry comes in handy when dealing with weak enemies or non-cultivators.

There is also Lighten-Load, which is a gift of the Gods when you're doing a lot of strenuous activities in armor.'


0~0~0

Voting is now closed.
Scheduled vote count started by Imperial Fister on May 13, 2023 at 8:00 PM, finished with 133 posts and 10 votes.

  • [X] Plan Let's Go To Court
    -[X] (Crafting) Try to make something
    --[X] Putting Runes on the Silver Arm-Ring (+7 Successes from Tools/Workshop)
    --[X] Wording: "Weaken, defy, and resist what is drawn to the beacon's light, what is found near the troll's cave, what is held in the swimmer's hand."
    --[X] Meaning: Protects against spiritual predators, curses, and destructive magics. Hopefully works especially well against Horra's family and Hasvir for a couple of reasons (it's symbolically a symbol of victory over their family, and the second reference is specifically to Horra while the third is specifically to Hasvir).
    --[X] Spending 1 Odr and 24 Orthstirr to enhance the crafting process
    -[X] (Personal) Spend time with...
    --[X] Stigulf Snowbeard
    --[X] Bring a tafl game and some food gifts, while playing (with Frenzy), aks questions/discuss
    ---[X] Most important: Our upcoming trial and if/how we could use Frenzy
    ---[X] Uses for Frenzy outside of battle, like in social situations, or could it help avoid mistakes while crafting?
    ---[X] Uses for Frenzy in battle (besides the obvious)
    ---[X] General advice
    -[X] (Visit) Go visit..
    --[X] Asvir!
    ---[X] (Optional) Attend the Thing
    --[X] Bring charges against Horra and Hasvir
    --[X] Coordinate with the seeress and our own friends and family first, strategizing how we'll do this
    --[X] Bring Abjorn and Sten with us.
    --[X] Also go shopping if there's time before things kick off (we have a couple of things we could use)
    -[X] (Rolled)
    --[X] Train Kindle-Spinner 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Firebomb-Strike 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Ember-Winged Cloak 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Campfire 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train a Trick combining Ember-Wing Cloak and Leaping Cleave that compensates for Leaping Cleave's weaknesses 2d6 (1d6) (+1 Success from Born of Fire)
    --[X] Train Hugr itself 29d6
    --[X] Undo our internal nalbinding (leaving 12 Pockets for now no matter how well we roll) 1d6
    -[X] (Research)
    --[X] When investing Odr into Hugr and Composure we will take the same precautions as last time...we will do Composure first, Sten, Steinarr, and Abjorn will be there, Sten will chain us up, and then Abjorn will bear-hug us from behind to hold us in place. We will be completely unarmed (work-knife included). Additionally, for this activity only, we will use shapeshifting to actively reduce our speed and damage (reversing our usual bonuses).
    --[X] See how many soul fruits or other small items (like explosive charms, or, more mundanely, mundane fruit or fist-sized rocks) we can store in a single Pocket (we'll try putting them in a bag if that helps) and if we can make them appear in different places when conjured (soul fruit in our mouth, charms in our hands or 10 feet away, shields in the hands of someone next to us, things like that), and how large an item we can fit in one 1d6
    --[X] Try investing Orthstirr into a Pocket and see what it does in terms of what can be stored there (can an invested Pocket store more, store better, do something else entirely?) Definitely includes seeing if we can store Frenzy more efficiently this way 1d6
    -[X] (Blackhand's Training) Try to develop old/train new hugareida tricks
    --[X] Train Halting Vortex 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Tricks
    --[X] Ask Tryggr what kind of Gale Tricks he actually knows and would recommend. He knows the specific Hugareida better than we do and he's seen us fight, his advice seems relevant. Have him demonstrate so we can get a better idea of what they do, especially in terms of actual attacks.
    --[X] Train Recall 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Hamr (125 successes to rank up)
    --[X] Train Hamr itself 1d6
    --[X] Train Bash 1d6
    --[X] Train Chop 1d6
    --[X] Train Cut 1d6
    --[X] Train Pierce 1d6
    --[X] Train Throw 1d6
    -[X] (Training) Hugr (19 successes to rank up)
    --[X] Train Tactics 1d6
    --[X] Train Weaponcraft 1d6 (+1 Success from Sten)
    -[X] (Training) Fylgja (3 success to rank up)
    --[X] Train Fylgja Itself 1d6
    -[X] (Orthstirr Usage)
    --[X] 4 Orthstirr to Hamr
    ---[X] 4 Chop, 4 Defend, 4 Dodge, 4 Glima, 3 Bash, 3 Pierce, 3 Throw, 3 Cut, 3 Farmwork, 3 Labor, 3 Overland (37 total)
    --[X] 4 Odr and 3/4 Orthstirr to Hugr (depending on whether it goes up)
    ---[X] 5 Artcraft, 5 Armorcraft, 3 Orthstirr to Barb-Tongue, 4 Odr and 1 Orthstirr to Composure, 6 Housecraft, 3 Management, 4 Scouting, 3 Silver-Tongue, 3 Strategy, 3 Tactics, 5 Weaponcraft, 4 Wordplay, 5 Wildcraft (50 total)
    --[X] 1 Orthstirr to Fylgja
    ---[X] 3 Command
    --[X] 1 First Impression
    --[X] 116/115 free for tricks (depending on whether Hugr goes up)
    -[X] (Fylgja Capacity)
    --[X] Remove Sidestep
    -[X] (Shapeshifting Slots)
    --[X] Assign our slots to High-Twitch Muscles, Dense Muscles, and Target-Tracking Eyes
    --[X] Assign Fylgja's slot to Sharpened Senses
 
You'll get a choice to attack immediately, which means that you'll have to eat a point of odrengskapr in order to catch Horra when he's not prepared — a dreng does not rush into things — or you can wait a turn.
Let,s put the breaks in before the train leaves.

We are NOT jumping Horra.

He is still protected by the law.
He IS just before the door of his sanctum with the Daurgar army.
Hasvis' tank is FULL.
And Wolfwind will either not fight or attack us, to show he still has use.
Not to mention that Horra is still the owner of the land.
And we do not know what he has up his sleeve's yet.
 
Deflect parry and attack trade sound like decent tricks to stack onto our defenses. Attack trade is probably better if we can insure we hit significantly harder then they hit us. No idea how good lighten load would be. I don't think we've had any trouble with how heavy our armor is. Maybe it'd let us wear heavier armor?

Let,s put the breaks in before the train leaves.

We are NOT jumping Horra.

He is still protected by the law.
He IS just before the door of his sanctum with the Daurgar army.
Hasvis' tank is FULL.
And Wolfwind will either not fight or attack us, to show he still has use.
Not to mention that Horra is still the owner of the land.
And we do not know what he has up his sleeve's yet.

This would be after he's declared an outlaw. It's better to deal with him immediately after then wait a whole 3 months for the next turn to come around.
 
Let,s put the breaks in before the train leaves.

We are NOT jumping Horra.

He is still protected by the law.
He IS just before the door of his sanctum with the Daurgar army.
Hasvis' tank is FULL.
And Wolfwind will either not fight or attack us, to show he still has use.
Not to mention that Horra is still the owner of the land.
And we do not know what he has up his sleeve's yet.

Admittedly, all of these disadvantages would still be a thing if we didn't jump him immediately after he was outlawed, on top of him having time to prepare more draugar, traps, contingencies, etc.

I... well, I think it'd be better to start the attack before he can prepare for us, but I'm open to being convinced.
 
He has a much harder time doing that if he legally can't hold property anymore and has to be evicted immediately.
 
I don't think it would matter if he legally owns the land the draugr are on, making draugr isn't allowed to begin with and I doubt most of his family even knows where the sanctum. That's a lot of draugr that I'd prefer him to not have a chance to unleash.

Best case scenario he dies before getting back to his tree after being outlawed then we go into his sanctum and kill each draugr before activated. Or burn the place to the ground.
 
He has a much harder time doing that if he legally can't hold property anymore and has to be evicted immediately.

I doubt his people are actually going to kick Horra off his land, lmao. Seems way too easy. I imagine Hasvir will just aid him in secret, and deny that he's doing so.

The main advantage I saw in outlawing Horra was that we could actually act against him without getting jumped by the rest of the Valley, and the rest of the Valley would actually be on our side too. Yeah, don't get me wrong, Horra will definitely be stifled. But given that he's been on the run for a good portion of his life and how crafty he's been proven to be, he'll probably be able to prepare for us if we give him the time do so (though not to the same extent he has prepared right now; doubt we'll see another draugar army).

Actually, when the authorities investigate Horra's Sanctum, will they immediately destroy it? Confiscate it? Assuming Horra even lets the authorities search it. If it looks like he's going to get outlawed he'll probably let them run wild.
 
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I doubt his people are actually going to kick Horra off his land, lmao. Seems way too easy. I imagine Hasvir will just aid him in secret, and deny that he's doing so.

The main advantage I saw in outlawing Horra was that we could actually act against him without getting jumped by the rest of the Valley, and the rest of the Valley would actually be on our side too. Yeah, don't get me wrong, Horra will definitely be stifled. But given that he's been on the run for a good portion of his life and how crafty he's been proven to be, he'll probably be able to prepare for us if we give him the time do so (though not to the same extent he has prepared right now; doubt we'll see another draugar army.)

Actually, when the authorities investigate Horra's Sanctum, will immediately destroy it? Confiscate it? Assuming Horra even lets the authorities search it. If it looks like he's going to get outlawed he'll probably let them run wild.

Then they get Outlawed as well, that's what a Full Outlawing means. Your property is repossessed by the Jarl and anyone who dares help you joins you as an Outlaw.
 
Then they get Outlawed as well, that's what a Full Outlawing means. Your property is repossessed by the Jarl and anyone who dares help you joins you as an Outlaw.

Well, yes. But I doubt they're actually going to go 'Oh, silly us, we're outlawed! We'll totally just let you kick us off this land without raising a fuss." Not to mention they'd need actual evidence of Hasvir aiding Horra to outlaw him.
 
I don't think Horra demands that degree of loyalty from his people.

That's a fair point, but I feel like Hasvir would be able to keep most of them in line. And that's not taking into account that Horra seems to have the especially strong people under his sway somehow. Like, they were already aiding bandits. I don't think they'd care if Hasvir made them send Horra supplies.
 
Hasvir is an accomplice in this, we've got enough evidence to get him at least a Lesser Outlawing. Potentially more depending on how hard he pushes back.
 
Hasvir is an accomplice in this, we've got enough evidence to get him at least a Lesser Outlawing. Potentially more depending on how hard he pushes back.

That's true. I'm not sure who would gain ownership of the property if Hasvir is outlawed, but we've already seen that one of Horra's children isn't as loyal as they seem, so whoever takes over might leave Horra to rot. Or they might not have enough influence to actually get the men to aid Horra (since - at least, from what I can tell - Hasvir seems to have a great deal of clout among the men, and they probably fear him like they do with Horra). I don't think he'll let himself get a Full Outlawing, but I think we can get him a Lesser Outlawing if we play our cards right.

Huh. I can see Steinarr pushing for us to jump Horra immediately, actually. We might have to rein him in. Given he's been targeting his family for half a dozen years, the things that Horra has done in the past, and on top of the fact that Steinarr will finally have his chance for revenge and he has shown to be pretty impulsive at times. He'll probably want to take him out now, rather than wait and let Horra prepare for him/prepare to run away and recover.

@Imperial Fister, would Steinarr testifying about the stuff Horra has done in the past - I'm not actually sure whether this whole draugar reanimating and fleshcrafting thing is new or not - help us in the trial?
 
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You'll get a choice to attack immediately, which means that you'll have to eat a point of odrengskapr in order to catch Horra when he's not prepared — a dreng does not rush into things — or you can wait a turn.

Ah! Well, I might've changed the Training plan a bit to account for this, but I was asleep, so...


How close to Quest Canon is the stuff in question? I'm particularly curious about the 'women testifying' thing.

Hasvir is an accomplice in this, we've got enough evidence to get him at least a Lesser Outlawing. Potentially more depending on how hard he pushes back.

Hasvir is a full co-conspirator on at least the bandit stuff if not the draugr, I think we can manage a full outlawing of him too, with some work. We have no evidence at all against any of Horra's other kids, though.

On the bright side, IIRC, we can kill them even without any outlawing without blood feuds as Horra is only distantly related to everyone, and they no longer count as being so related. Not that we necessarily want to kill them all, but some won't give us a choice.
 
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@Imperial Fister, would Steinarr testifying about the stuff Horra has done in the past - I'm not actually sure whether this whole draugar reanimating and fleshcrafting thing is new or not - help us in the trial?
Certainly.
How close to Quest Canon is the stuff in question? I'm particularly curious about the 'women testifying' thing.
I'll need to read through it in more detail, but the women not being able to testify thing was a memory goof on my end.
 
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