Nazi Germany, the Holocaust, and Conspiracy

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I will almost certainly feel stupid after asking this but thought I would ask anyway :)

It is common knowledge that Hitler knew that millions of Jews were being murdered in concentration and death camps. A special efford was made however to hide the fact that is occurring. This included the use of euphemism. In some cases it went through different stages where a report to Himmler would use one euphemism and one to Hitler would use even a blander one.

There were efforts made to hide this is soldiers reports home, what senior officers reported, and government reports. Seem to be pretty a systematic attempt at covering this up. There were a few more plain language discussions including some recordings of Himmler.

First, what audience(s) were being targeted by this attempt at deception?

Second, what does this say about conspiracies in general? This seems to be a vast conspiracy and it took a very long time to really dawn on those outside Germany.
 
Well look at isolationist foreign policy the US pursued in 19th century leading upto US involvement in WW 1, and how US for most part stayed out of colonialism. Something like that may be possible for an alternate timeline fascist movement in Europe.
I will almost certainly feel stupid after asking this but thought I would ask anyway :)

It is common knowledge that Hitler knew that millions of Jews were being murdered in concentration and death camps. A special efford was made however to hide the fact that is occurring. This included the use of euphemism. In some cases it went through different stages where a report to Himmler would use one euphemism and one to Hitler would use even a blander one.

There were efforts made to hide this is soldiers reports home, what senior officers reported, and government reports. Seem to be pretty a systematic attempt at covering this up. There were a few more plain language discussions including some recordings of Himmler.

First, what audience(s) were being targeted by this attempt at deception?

Second, what does this say about conspiracies in general? This seems to be a vast conspiracy and it took a very long time to really dawn on those outside Germany.


No, it's not a stupid question.

The fact is that the Soviet's also covered up holodomor and gulags in the documents and propaganda. Turkey's government to this day denies Armenian genocide and documentation is very sparse on that too.

There is no government who wants documented millions of victims; that simply looks extremely bad and can be easly used against the government in question and all that they promote. Soviets propaganda made the best effort to hid it, but still no person of decency or intelligence can be a communist (outside of China, I guess).

The documentation being destroyed or the crime (even of such scale) covered up is just logic of the system. Incentives of industrial totalitarianism and global scale information warfare.
 
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For a second I thought, this thread would go to a bad place what with bringing up the holocaust and conspiracy, but it's not as bad as I thought. Anyway, while the holocaust was not complete public knowledge that was broadcast on the news, it definitely wasen't some kind of hidden conspiracy or black ops. You can't hide the murder of millions, and I refuse to believe the German people were so stupid that they did not notice Gestapo storm troopers storming the houses of Jews and taking them away. Maybe if you are a civillian you don't know they are being killed, but some sort of prison or Gulag would be a very reasonable thing to know. And if you were a soldier or higher up in government you'd be seeing the dead so they should have definitely known.
 
Murdering or working to death millions is bad for ones image.

Until the war is won at least.

The target were probably both outsiders, since Germany would have to pursue some sort of peace treaty at some point and the conquered until it was too late?

Once the Jews for example knew with absolute certainty they were culled some started fighting back. Now imagine if everyone across the conquered Europe knew that the people taken were being exterminated, either directly like the jews, cripples, roma or being worked to death like the ones taken by the Todh? organization. Despair would be the order of the day and the guerilla problem would magnify by a couple of orders of magnitude.
 
I will almost certainly feel stupid after asking this but thought I would ask anyway :)

It is common knowledge that Hitler knew that millions of Jews were being murdered in concentration and death camps. A special efford was made however to hide the fact that is occurring. This included the use of euphemism. In some cases it went through different stages where a report to Himmler would use one euphemism and one to Hitler would use even a blander one.

There were efforts made to hide this is soldiers reports home, what senior officers reported, and government reports. Seem to be pretty a systematic attempt at covering this up. There were a few more plain language discussions including some recordings of Himmler.

First, what audience(s) were being targeted by this attempt at deception?

Second, what does this say about conspiracies in general? This seems to be a vast conspiracy and it took a very long time to really dawn on those outside Germany.

It's worth remembering the degree of internal duplicity and conspiracy which went on in even the highest levels of the Nazi government. In a related example, I've seen reasonably credible arguments that Hitler's and OKH's beliefs in the Soviets being "on their last legs" was due in part to the ludicrously inflated casualty reports they were regularly receiving. After all, if you'd truly killed as many Russians as the reports indicated, how many fighting-age males could really be left? To some degree, the differing reports might just be symptomatic of the internecine conflict common among the NSDAP regime.

That being said, I suspect part of the deception effort may have been aimed at avoiding the Fuhrer's personal attention. Hitler might've been a fruitcake with an eye towards old-school colonization via gas and bullet, but he was also a bit of a Romantic with a sentimental streak, and he wasn't the only top German official with occasional outbreaks of conscience about the whole Lebensraum thing. "Sanitizing" reports to focus on positives such as 'foodstuffs produced' (through mass extermination), or 'industrial output' (from slave laborers) would likely have played better with both Hitler and the rest of the German top brass.



As for what it says about conspiracy...well, IMO it's difficult to really count the early-war coverup as one. There were certainly efforts to minimize the publicity of Nazi atrocities, but "cutting out the 'messy' bits of war" was part and parcel of wartime censorship, and let's not forget that all sides freely engaged in censorship of their own troops' messages back home. I'm not aware of a particularly concerted effort to cover up either the extermination or labor efforts of the broader Holocaust during much of the war, other than more routine efforts at spin and media control.

The only time I'm aware that such an effort really came into play would be 1944-45, when Germany was clearly on the defensive and seemed destined to lose the war. At that point we can see efforts to destroy records, burn or bury camps to avoid discovery, and similar moves to conceal the scope and scale of the Holocaust. However, AFAIK the late-war and postwar efforts to conceal German atrocities were a bit of a mess; rather than the popular image of a coordinated conspiracy, events like "guards fleeing/mass-executing shortly before Soviet/American tanks rolled into a camp" reads more like a black comedy than a stereotypical conspiracy.

And while there was certainly evidence of the ongoing atrocities, it's also important to remember that they would've been overshadowed by literally earth-shaking events such as "several thousand German and Soviet soldiers were just fed into the Rzhev meatgrinder again," or "American ships make landing at Bougainville, fierce fighting expected." Additionally, combatant countries logically focused on events and circumstances which affected their own people; when half the young males of the town were under arms, you can bet you'd pay attention to every little detail which you might have a personal stake in, as opposed to a distant atrocity which wouldn't have an immediate effect on you and yours.
 
Stop: Just no
I once read a very grim conspiracy theory, forgot where, that it was initially a joint effort of Zionist and Nazi leaders to create Israel and populate it by force-relocating all Jews out of Europe. But the Zionist side failed its promise to guarantee non-involvement of Britain to allow Germany focusing on Poland and USSR, while the Nazi side failed to capture the land of Israel. It went downhill from there, and only then the concentration camps began turning into death camps.
I can't remember sources, sadly, but the article claimed that killings only started when Germany began losing and ran out of resources to feed the Jews.
If that is true and the Jewish people was really betrayed by its leadership... I believe any evidence had long since been disappeared because that would be too embarrassing a skeleton to have in your cupboard.

I'd dismiss that article as just another over-the-top conspiracy theory if not the simple fact: all publicly available info on holocaust is how horrible it was and how many people were killed but never, ever anything resembling a timeline. Never dates or numbers of deaths per year. I guess Mossad does its job a little too well :(
just no ...ohohoho no
 
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this thread looks like a potential dumpster fire.

Look, lying in official records and using gentle round about ways to describe horrific acts has been a part of human history since the invention of the written word. The Romans did it, the Americans did it in ww2, and Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs, and other corporate interests did it.

if I had to hypothesis why, it's because of this psychological phenomenon... I don't know what to call it, but a famous story illustrating it is when a CEO came to visit, noticed a new door, asked why it was there... and after he left they removed the door at great expense because they thought he was upset by it.

What I'm trying to say is that lying and euphemising is regular thing humans do, and not necessarily a sign of any sort of conspiracy. In fact, having different levels of euphemism for different layers of society is a common part of your every day life, even when you are being entirely truthful.

Think of, for example, how you discuss sex with your parents, with your acquaintances, with your sufficient other, with rando strangers on the internet, and with your friends. You probably use different tones and terminology for each discussion, regardless of truthfulness.

Think also about manners and politeness. Who do you call Mr? Who do you call Sir? Who do you call Dr? Who do you call Herr Professor Doctor? What words don't you say around your mom? What words don't you say around your preacher? When do you set the table with a full formal setting? When do you just throw shit onto the table and leave it rest? Etc.

This is all perfectly normal, and just because the Nazis were using euphemisms to refer to their murder of political opponents, the disabled, and ethnic, religious, and sexual minorities does not mean that there was some sort of conspiracy about it, nor that they were trying to hide it from Hitler.

And don't start talking shit about communists please. The american Left gets called communist often enough. Saying nasty things about communism is basically a dogwhistle for complaining about the American Left at this point.
 
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