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Mother of Learning

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Dr. Bob Doom

Dr. Bob Doom

Over in Mr Zoat's With This Ring fanfic, Empiricist2 mentioned Mother of Learning, an original work of fiction being published here.

It's a story about an intelligent-but-not-genius boy in a Magic School that finds himself stuck in a timeloop and his efforts to unravel the mystery of the coming apocalypse. It's a rational fic without being a Rational™ fic, and I highly recommend it to just about anyone.

The goal of this thread is to both foster discussion about the work and introduce it to new people, so we should make an effort to keep spoilers behind the spoiler tag. That said, the story has been around for half a decade, so the occasional spoiler may slip through.
 
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So how do you think Zorian should prgress with golems? He's gotten pretty good at making them, but as of now it seems to me like they're of relatively limited potency. Generally they're durable melee combatants that act as a useful distraction while Zorian proceeds with annihilating everyone with mind magic. Not bad, but for the amount of effort put into them it seems kinda lackluster. At the very least he should equip them with either a stabbing weapon or a mace, to take care of enemy mages and undead, respectively. While he doesn't know much about armed combat, hack and slash isn't particularly advanced.

Equipping them with potions could be useful, as it gives them offensive options that don't rely on Zorian triggering a spell formula. He could even make a small and fast suicide golem for taking out entrenched positions.

Aside from that, Zorian should make some more offensive or defensive spell formulas to carry on him, as he seems relatively weak when mind magic doesn't immediately work. It gives him the option for more intricate spells when in combat.
kylina said:
Love that fic. Sad that it hasn't updated in forever.
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The author's posted schedule has another update in two days. He's generally consistent about these being an update every three weeks. Slow, but a quality update each time.
 
kylina said:
Well fuck. I haven't been getting any update alerts I need to check it out again. 'scuse me
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Heck, there's even a chapter planned for this sunday (though there's been a week delay with the last 2 chapters, hopefully this one won't be delayed too).
Empiricist2 said:
So how do you think Zorian should prgress with golems? He's gotten pretty good at making them, but as of now it seems to me like they're of relatively limited potency. Generally they're durable melee combatants that act as a useful distraction while Zorian proceeds with annihilating everyone with mind magic. Not bad, but for the amount of effort put into them it seems kinda lackluster. At the very least he should equip them with either a stabbing weapon or a mace, to take care of enemy mages and undead, respectively. While he doesn't know much about armed combat, hack and slash isn't particularly advanced.
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Idk, they seem pretty handy to me, he wouldn't have been able to do a lot of solo raids he did without them. They'd be especially potent if he learned soul magic though.
 
Dr. Bob Doom said:
I don't really think there is anywhere to go with them, not unless he can figure out how to go full automaton with them, and then you run into ethical concerns.
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He can control them remotely with telepathy, so he doesn't have much reason to make them smarter. Just able to follow his orders.

I think there are loads of areas to go with them. They're essentially a spell formula that walks. Walking tank is certainly useful, but he doesn't need to limit himself to that. Give them enchanted blades for piercing defenses, and he could ambush fortified positions. It allows a direct form of attack that doesn't endanger Zorian and doesn't rely on mind magic.

Also, I think he has more potential for improvement in combat by improving his golems than by getting better at mind magic combat. While his mind magic combat is exemplary, I'm not sure how much else he can improve there. Golems however have plenty of room for improvement, and don't rely on his mana reserves. Not to say he shouldn't further improve his mind magic, but in terms of combat magic he's hit a point of diminishing returns.
GodKiller999 said:
Idk, they seem pretty handy to me, he wouldn't have been able to do a lot of solo raids he did without them. They'd be especially potent if he learned soul magic though.
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They're certainly good, but they seem a bit limited to me. Durable, strong, but not all that much else. Their offensive options are relatively limited, and it seems they act mostly as damage sponges for the mages. While that's certainly not bad, given the fidelity Zorian has with controlling them they don't seem to live up to their potential. Maybe make them big ass bows that they could use with their enhanced strength? Hitting an enemy mage with an arrows as big as an arm, that travels faster than almost any spell, would be a pretty good ambush. Combine that with the specialized arrows Zorian could make, and you have a pretty effective fighting force even if there isn't a mage in support. Guns also work.
 
Empiricist2 said:
They're certainly good, but they seem a bit limited to me. Durable, strong, but not all that much else. Their offensive options are relatively limited, and it seems they act mostly as damage sponges for the mages. While that's certainly not bad, given the fidelity Zorian has with controlling them they don't seem to live up to their potential. Maybe make them big ass bows that they could use with their enhanced strength? Hitting an enemy mage with an arrows as big as an arm, that travels faster than almost any spell, would be a pretty good ambush. Combine that with the specialized arrows Zorian could make, and you have a pretty effective fighting force even if there isn't a mage in support. Guns also work.
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The issue with that currently is that Zorian can't do these things himself and for a Golem to do something his creator must know how to do that thing. Of course he can learn those martial skills, but it's an added duty on top of his heavy schedule, though he did start practicing physical combat to try and fix that issue, so it's obviously in his plans.
 
GodKiller999 said:
The issue with that currently is that Zorian can't do these things himself and for a Golem to do something his creator must know how to do that thing. Of course he can learn those martial skills, but it's an added duty on top of his heavy schedule, though he did start practicing physical combat to try and fix that issue, so it's obviously in his plans.
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Basic archery doesn't seem like it would take all that long to learn. They don't need to learn to shoot an arrow while running or anything, just basic point, aim, shoot. Some divination magic could make it trivial to aim. And it's not like golems need to correct for shaking hands or breathing, or worry about hurting themselves with a bow.
 
Empiricist2 said:
Basic archery doesn't seem like it would take all that long to learn. They don't need to learn to shoot an arrow while running or anything, just basic point, aim, shoot. Some divination magic could make it trivial to aim. And it's not like golems need to correct for shaking hands or breathing, or worry about hurting themselves with a bow.
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The question is more how far he would go with, though I do see your point, if Zorian was more martially inclined he'd have likely done it sooner.
 
I'd probably go with firearms over bows. Both because it would be quicker and more useful for him to learn personally and because gun technology in the setting seems to have advanced past the point where bows are competitive. Yes magically enhanced bows and bows with draw weight's humans can't handle are options, but I suspect that if you're willing to invest that much effort alchemical propellants and magically reinforced barrels will still come out ahead.

Also, I maintain that Xvim is a pretty mediocre mentor who's reputation is deserved. For a shaping focused mage on the path to being an archmage like Zorian he's a good teacher, but the majority of his students would probably be better off picking someone else if they got the option.
 
Speedbump said:
Also, I maintain that Xvim is a pretty mediocre mentor who's reputation is deserved. For a shaping focused mage on the path to being an archmage like Zorian he's a good teacher, but the majority of his students would probably be better off picking someone else if they got the option.
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I'm not sure. We haven't really see him teach a normal student. Aside from the shaping exercises, which he said is largely just to weed out those who aren't sufficiently dedicated, we haven't seen him actually teach aside from when Zorian let's him know about the time loop. He could be a great if very demanding teacher to normal students, and we wouldn't know.
 
Empiricist2 said:
I'm not sure. We haven't really see him teach a normal student. Aside from the shaping exercises, which he said is largely just to weed out those who aren't sufficiently dedicated, we haven't seen him actually teach aside from when Zorian let's him know about the time loop. He could be a great if very demanding teacher to normal students, and we wouldn't know.
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We haven't seen them, but we've seen the results of what they've said. AKA, Xvim is the last choice. The mentor you take when you don't have any other option. And we've seen how Xvim teaches Zorian even after he know's that he's gone though his bullshit dozens of times. It's a little bit less aggravating, a bit more explanation. But not much. His character remains and I maintain that it is not one of a good teacher not for the majority of mages who need practical skills to do their jobs, not exercises that will pay of next decade.
 
The problem with Xvim is that he should be teaching at a special graduate school where it's known that he's a difficult and demanding teacher, but if you stick with him, then you can go far. Not everyone wants awesome shaping skills. Some people just want enough schooling to be able to move on to their ideal job.

Unfortunately, not everyone gets to chose their mentor (Zorian certainly didn't want him), and per Chapter 1, a mentor can make a huge difference in whether someone can actually get the career they're aiming for. It doesn't help that Xvim tends to actively provoke his mentees for the first month or so, and the mentees don't know about any potential payoff for sticking with him.
 
It's worth mentioning that Mother of Learning is extremely popular within the rationalist crowd and outside of it, with good reason; it's excellent. In my personal top 2 stories bar none.

The author made a doc with links to things like fanart and the active Russian translation (of reasonable quality once you get past the word choice). There's also a wordpress for expanded worldbuilding, contains some spoilers.

On the reader side, the story has a tvtropes page, discussions across multiple forums (including a rather active one in SB). The author was convinced to make a Patreon page as well, where it's doing quite well (222 patrons as of writing this).

Due to the nature of the story, spoilers can and will ruin your fun if you indulge too much. So if you can, just go pick up the first chapter here. Don't let grumpy Zorian turn you away, he mellows out considerably as the story progresses.
 
GodKiller999 said:
Chapter 61 is out.
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Nice relatively relaxing chapter. Interesting bits of information about the cult wanting to subjugate the primordial. I wonder if Zorian could significantly change how the invasion plays out by demonstrating that their mental defenses are completely insufficient to the task at hand? I mean I'm sure that it would change anyway since they would know about a huge information leak.

So, the head person of the guild of mages is the head cultist. Aside from the obvious political implications, this gives Zorian complete moral leeway in rooting through his memories for any magic he wants. This is fantastic for the Z team. Imagine the magic they could take from him. It was also mentioned he's an expert alteration magic user. Ooh I hope they go after him in the next restart when his defenses are not super high.
 
I did like it, but there might have been a bit too much exposition, but it was setup chapter so it was to be expected.
 
Eh, MoL has really good exposition. Personally I really like the chapters where he just continually gathers more resources and learns new things.
 
I gave it a read a few days ago, just remembered there was a thread here.

I really, really enjoyed it. I have a theory that Daimen is going to be a big deal soon, either as a left-field Red Robe, or because the archaeology site he's at has one of the keys.
 
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