Kansas from May 30. 2020 is suddenly transported to May 30, 1854, the day the Kansas Nebraska...
Modern Kansas ISOT to 1854
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Kansas from May 30. 2020 is suddenly transported to May 30, 1854, the day the Kansas Nebraska Act is passed. The ISOT uses the modern borders of Kansas and everyone and everything inside these borders are brought along for the ride. This does mean that Kansas City is cut in half at the border. What effect does this have on the upcoming events in American history? Does Kansas itself integrate into the old US, does it make reintegration conditional, or are there any attempts at independence? Can Kansas steer American politics in any meaningful way? And if so how?
- Location
- Cascadia
* Coronavirus pandemic sweeps America, and eventually the world. But it's quickly lost amid smallpox, measles, and many other worse pathogens, and eventually becomes a normal childhood disease.
* Kansas legislature ceremonially outlaws abortion, same-sex marriage, and a grab list of issues, leading to a moral outcry from downtimers that they were ever legal in the first place.
* Slaves from Missouri escape to Kansas, quickly leading to a short battle where the uptime Kansas City police force defeats the downtime Jackson County militia, and then to a moral outcry from uptimers that they should immediately invade Missouri to abolish slavery.
* Despite the moral outcries on both sides, I think the Kansas legislature would (re-)join the United States. It does have an eighth of the population of the country, but I think patriotism on the one hand, the opportunity to influence the downtimers on the other hand, and economic turmoil and the opportunity for integration on the gripping hand, would push them into (re-)joining. The more interesting question is whether the downtime Congress - with a fragile Democratic majority - would accept them.
* Either way, Kansas will have some other interesting questions about Indian Territory on its southern border. It won't need to drill for oil there - it has a lot of its own, together with its own refineries - but there would still be a lot of opportunities and a lot of people arguing that Kansas has a duty to do better for them than in the original timeline. And just to complicate matters further, a number of the tribes themselves hold slaves.
* Kansas legislature ceremonially outlaws abortion, same-sex marriage, and a grab list of issues, leading to a moral outcry from downtimers that they were ever legal in the first place.
* Slaves from Missouri escape to Kansas, quickly leading to a short battle where the uptime Kansas City police force defeats the downtime Jackson County militia, and then to a moral outcry from uptimers that they should immediately invade Missouri to abolish slavery.
* Despite the moral outcries on both sides, I think the Kansas legislature would (re-)join the United States. It does have an eighth of the population of the country, but I think patriotism on the one hand, the opportunity to influence the downtimers on the other hand, and economic turmoil and the opportunity for integration on the gripping hand, would push them into (re-)joining. The more interesting question is whether the downtime Congress - with a fragile Democratic majority - would accept them.
* Either way, Kansas will have some other interesting questions about Indian Territory on its southern border. It won't need to drill for oil there - it has a lot of its own, together with its own refineries - but there would still be a lot of opportunities and a lot of people arguing that Kansas has a duty to do better for them than in the original timeline. And just to complicate matters further, a number of the tribes themselves hold slaves.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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Well, Kansas is immediately the most powerful country on earth with the 1st Infantry Division at Fort Riley and two air refueling wings at McConnell AFB plus the 35th Infantry Division (Mechanized) at Ft Leavenworth along with the US Army Combined Arms Center (which just also happens to have the US Army Command and General Staff College located there). Plus a bunch of foreign officers taking courses there.
Assuming Kansas reintegrates into the US, the United States is immediately vaulted to the position of World Hyper Power 150 years early.
Assuming Kansas reintegrates into the US, the United States is immediately vaulted to the position of World Hyper Power 150 years early.
The biggest issue is probably that Kansas isn't a state, it's a territory at the time. The conflict over if it should be a state or not is what would be inflammatory. Unless of course you just wanted to go ahead and admit that the news of the civil war would just plain start the civil war. If you aren't going to admit that then things get interesting in congress talking about if Kansas will be allowed to be a state, and with Kansas asserting it's statehood.
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I wanted to get a few thoughts running first. My main idea with picking Kansas was to see if there would be any interesting pileups from the lead up to bloody Kansas and how it would alter US politics in the aftermath.
Do the southern states take a look at the history books and then at Kansas' military arsenal and opt to roll the dice anyway? Or do they give in and start compromising their way to eventual abolition? If the later option which methods do you think will be pursued?
Will the Federal government accept that Kansas now has sufficient citizens to apply for statehood or will there be other legal dances used?
How self-sufficient is Kansas? Outside perspective says that a lowly developed rural state will handle itself well, but what consequences will it suffer from being cut off from modern trade?
How much can Kansas uplift downtime America and how will that uplift affect the world in the long run?
More to my interest, will Kansas' advance nature cause further development of America's heartland as people move to it to enjoy higher living standards? IRL most populations huddle in coastal enclaves because moving goods by water is 17 times more efficient and cheaper than by land, making large coastal cities too big to fail. Will this change with Kansas' new nature or will the state sparsely populated and developed in the long run
- Location
- That light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Early 1900s electronics can be hand crafted in a pinch. Modernizing the US to 1930s tech will take more or less as long as the Meiji restoration, which brought a fuedal/early age of sail japan up to early modern technology.
Microelectronics will not be a thing for decades, as modern photolithography has a long and complicated supply chain.
Kansas does not have an active steel plant, most US steel mills are in Indiana.
Kansas has an active petrochemical industry, including deposits that will be recharged do to crossing state lines.
Kansas has aircraft manufaturers, but does not have a major aluminum refinery.
Coleman (a camping supply company) has its headquarters in Kansas, and will likely get tapped for the military industry to supply infantry equipment such as portable cook stoves .
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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- Bristol, TN
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Even the most ardent Fire Eaters will realize that secession is a doomed cause as long as those two divisions are loyal to the Federal Government. And while individual members may be willing to desert and join the CSA, 90-95% likely won't. So secession is DOA. Particularly in border states that were on the fence and only left after Lincoln decided to use force to suppress the rebellion.
So yes, some form of compromise will be reached. It's most likely form is gradual abolition by 1900 with slave owners compensated "for their loss of property" (and I feel dirty even writing that).
They don't really have a choice. In 1854, Kansas would be the second most populous state in the Union at 2.913 million people. Only New York with ~3.7 would have more. And Kansas likely has a huge population explosion of freemen rushing to move there once they find out that blacks and women are actually treated as Citizens there will full voting and civil rights. By 1860, Kansas is probably the most populated state in the country. Congress won't really be able to deny it. I don't think they admit Kansas as a state so much as recognize that it already is one.
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- That light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful - "cultural malaise affecting modern blacks" is like, a very obvious dogwhistle you're using here
OOf, now I can't help but imagine the problems that would come from the cultural malaise aflicting modern blacks having legitimate racism to deal with. There will be violence. The final outcome will be very hard to predict.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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I'm gonna try and phrase this politely, but WTF? Modern minorities already face "legitimate racism." I'll grant you that, compared to 1850, minorities are light-years ahead of where they were. But it's not like Kansas is just going to suddenly have minorities second class citizens because they got sent back in time. Kansas is going to rapidly become multicultural as minorities and "less desirable" (i.e. Irish, Italian and East European) whites flock there.
In the broader US, it's going to cause a massive amount of social ripples. Some, hell, probably most, States are going to dig in their heels on denying minorities civil rights. Others will see the massive loss of population and do everything in their power to stop it, including adopting civil rights.
But the biggest thing that's going to screw with the DT United States? One of the Representatives from Kansas is an openly gay, female, minority (Native American). Just think how that's gonna go over in 1854...
Edit: The Governor of Kansas also happens to be female. Which in 1854 is unlikely to be popular in much of the country. Though it could also spur earlier women's suffrage
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liberty90
Evil Neoliberal Cat
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- Poland
Many people in Kansas, after some initial surge in patriotism, would be as enthusiastic about immigration from the downtime US (including white immigration from the downtime US) as now people are about immigration from Somalia. In fact, people in Somalia are more familiar with showers and electric lights, culturally at least, even if they are too poor to own such stuff in their own country.
- Location
- That light in the sky with a decaying orbit.
Its not like there haven't been ruling queens in the past. There is more likely to be a massive push-back from downtime women against feminism. Gender roles are policed by members of the same gender. The anti-man and anti-family aspects of feminism will get a very strong negative reaction from women with a strong family values stance.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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- Bristol, TN
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I don't think it would in this case. The Governor is married with children. She's literally the perfect example of what women can do, even while having a family. And we're talking women's suffrage, not full on feminism. A female Governor and a female Representative are going to be an impetus for women's suffrage.
I almost think the reverse would be more interesting. 1854 Kansas brought to the 21st century would be a hotbed of potential creative stories turning everything on its head.
As for uptime Kansas, we, today, call it conservative, in the 1800s it is fucking super liberal. Any part of the 1800s.
I see instead of a push to outlaw things not popular with the GOP, I think people might over compensate by trying to keep everything they can when DC tries to take things away.
Even the Radical Republicans might think twice about joining this Kansas. TheGOP will be very surprised by 1850 party politics.
I see instead of a push to outlaw things not popular with the GOP, I think people might over compensate by trying to keep everything they can when DC tries to take things away.
Even the Radical Republicans might think twice about joining this Kansas. TheGOP will be very surprised by 1850 party politics.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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- Bristol, TN
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That's actually a really good point. By the standards of the 1850s, modern Kansas would be seen as being radically liberal/progressive. That's seriously going to fuck with the minds of some of their politicians, going from being extremely conservative to very fucking liberal
A few things.
Note: I live in Kansas, but I have family else where.
- The majority of blacks and other minorities live in the larger cities (Kansas City, Witchita, and Topeka). The rural population figures are heavily white, which slants the overall demographics picture.
- The two main power plants in the state are nuclear and coal powered. Getting uranium is a long term issue, but Kansas did have some small coal mines that can be re-opened.
- renewable already accounts for 50% of power production (heavily favoring wind of course).
- Kansas also produced some lead and zinc, but those mines were shut down by 1997.
- Holding KKK meetings in Kansas is actually illegal due to some old laws specifically passed to deal with the KKK.
- Yeah, people think Kansas is very conservative, then it elects a lesbian Native American and wonders what the fuss is about.
- Yes, I know about the gay marriage ban, granted Kansas is hardly alone on that, which includes some far more liberal states.
- I didn't hear much if anything about Sharice Davids and her lesbian status, but she wasn't running in my district.
- Kansas is actually on its second female governor (married with kids)
Yeah, if they think the rural parts are radically liberal/progressive, Kansas City is liberal by even average Kansas views. With Witchita and Topeka more in the middle.
Note: I live in Kansas, but I have family else where.
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Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
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- Land of Do As You Please
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Given that that's just at the kickoff point for the current wave of protests and civil disobedience, you're gonna see a shitload of armed groups traveling South intending to free slaves and fuck up slaver owners property.
Like, forget about dealing with downtimers trying to awkwardly integrate into the population - Kansas is now a military superpower and sitting right on the border of the future Confederacy, which is in the process of working to death millions of Black people. All of the energy that would have been directed towards protest movements is now going to be channeled into reverse filibusters aiming to fuck with the Planter Class any which way they can, and the Buchanan administration is absolutely powerless to stop them.
Like, forget about dealing with downtimers trying to awkwardly integrate into the population - Kansas is now a military superpower and sitting right on the border of the future Confederacy, which is in the process of working to death millions of Black people. All of the energy that would have been directed towards protest movements is now going to be channeled into reverse filibusters aiming to fuck with the Planter Class any which way they can, and the Buchanan administration is absolutely powerless to stop them.
- Location
- Here
Do you have any examples of what you mean?
I need to find that old ISOT story where a modern Klansman returns home weeping upon the realization that he's a radical progressive now.
But yeah, this is back in the day when city politics were arguably more influential than federal ones and the spoil systems ran rampant. Even the skeeviest modern politician would hesitate at some of the stuff that was common practice back then. Combine that with modern racism being more cultural than explicitly genetic (scientific racism is largely a dead letter among all but the fringiest of loonbags) and there are going to be a lot of cultural gaps in how the law is perceived and executed. Kansas may push for allowances to retain future Federal law inside its borders as that would be the easiest way to square the circles.
I can see a lot of people glaring at Missouri and daring them to do something stupid, but I'm not so certain there will be all that many crusaders up to travel into the Deep South. Though the state border may become the most heavily armed finish line for the Underground Railroad in history. The House of Reps will rapidly become a fun place to be certain.
Thanks for the continued responses everyone.
Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
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All it takes is a determined group, a trip to the nearest sporting goods store, and a minivan. With 24 hours they can drive across the border, arm slaves with the most basic hunting rifles, and spark an uprising. I guarantee you that BLM activists would organize raids, clandestine or no, to wreak havoc on the Planter class. Even if the borders are guarded, they're guarded by 1850's standards - a single SUV with armed passengers or converted technical is going to make mincemeat out of basically anything they can throw at them.
Shit, if I was in Kansas when the ISOT happened you better believe I'd consider putting a group together to forcibly liberate some slaves. On top of that, even as craven as the modern day GOP are I seriously doubt they'd acquiesce to the US government telling them to reign in their citizens. The GOP might be nakedly authoritarian and racist, but I'm guessing (I mean who the fuck knows at this point) they'd draw the line at actively supporting slavery. If they did, they'd probably see an armed insurrection forcing them out of government. You'd probably quickly run into a scenario where the local groups go on turbocharged John Brown raids, the Federal Government orders the state government to bring their citizens to heel, and the state government tells them to get fucked.
Honestly, what is compelling Kansas to obey the federal government? Slavery was an absolute moral evil, and I seriously doubt people are going to listen to a government that's (from their perspective) 150+ years out of date. The Topeka PD alone could probably fight and win a war against the US Army at the time (or at the very least defend the state until the rest of the military could mobilize), so it's not like the government could force them to comply. Even if (for whatever reason, again I'm extremely skeptical everyone would just go "Oh well what are you gonna do" and start taking orders from people who have, from their view, been dead for a century and a half) the state government submitted to federal authority there's literally nothing stopping the citizenry from forming militias and taking the fight to the slavers.
- Location
- DC area
Party affiliation was much, much looser before the Civil War. The Democrats remained fairly stable from 1828 on, but the main opposition went from National Republicans to Whigs to Republicans, plus the lesser factions of Anti-Masons, Free-Soilers, and Know-Nothings. Politicians drifted in and out a lot more than they do now.
I know I'm not a Kansan, and it does seem like you are, but one of Kansas' four districts electing a liberal is completely in accordance with the state overall being very conservative.
The debate is going to blow up pretty damn fast as to whether working with the current Pierce administration or the possible future Buchanan administration is the best way to free as many slaves as possible, as quickly as possible, while killing as few of them as possible.
Especially if negotiations with the relevant Congresscritters result in Kansas frantically drawing 20-odd House districts for the 1854 elections.
With the Civil War only a few years away, it does seem like a lot of people are going to be skeptical that violence isn't just inevitable anyway.
"[Kansas] promised to do anything [the federal government] asked them to do, provided that [the federal government] never asked them to do anything." - Terry Pratchett.
I think a lot of people would still cherish their American identities, and believe that they'd be better off swinging around their weight internally than trying to split away. Protecting what's left of the tribes in the Great Plains is a bit of a hard sell with just Kansas, after all.
liberty90
Evil Neoliberal Cat
- Location
- Poland
Economically that's comparable to hypothetical annexation of Switzerland by Nigeria/Somalia (that is, uptime Kansas is like Switzerland, downtime US is Somalia). I mean, not exactly, because Kansas is much closer and there is theoretically some common heritage, but almost. Differences in development are comparable.
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You would be amazed at the sheer amount of self-delusion that the CSA leadership practiced. We're talking Nazis-in-1945 level of delusion here. Somebody like Lee or Maury would likely step back and think twice, but Davis, Forrest, and their ilk would probably double-down and might even set things off early.
- Location
- Cascadia
I agree; every slave in the western reaches of Missouri is quickly going to be freed.
But further east, the borders are guarded by fairly impassible terrain. Maybe you could get your off-road truck down Missouri roads to Jefferson City, though SUV's will probably break down within fifty miles at least. But how will you cross the Mississippi or the Arkansas or any number of other rivers between you and the vast majority of plantations? Freeing the slaves there will either take individual Underground Railroad conductors armed with modern weapons, or a coordinated effort by the Kansas National Guard.
SSgtC
It's bedtime somewhere
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The Kansas National Guard is the 35th Infantry Division (Mechanized). Being equipped with a shit ton of Bradley IFVs, Paladin SPA and Abrams tanks with an absolutely mind boggling amount of trucks, I'd say they're uniquely suited to doing this. And the 1st Infantry Division also is lavishly equipped with tracked vehicles and number of helicopters including the AH-64, UH-60 and CH-47. So the military units in the state are extraordinarily well suited for moving off road and across undeveloped terrain.