Okay so I could really use the forums swarm intelligence for a scenario I am pondering:
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"Minor" nations, ideologies and technological developments in dystopian Axis ISOT
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Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
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Okay so I could really use the forums swarm intelligence for a scenario I am pondering:
The base idea is a world that is left behind after your typical ASB/ROB shenanigans.
The ASB decides to ISOT the United States and the Soviet Union to a virgin earth on the eve prior to Operation Barbarossa. It essentially is your classical communism vs. capitalism white room scenario.
I am however interested in the world this ASB has left behind. We are at the verge of the biggest escalation in WW2 and two of the main players are just replaced by virgin lands. The Nazis are dumbfounded when reconaissance flights show no signs of civilization behind Soviet occupied Poland while Great Britain has just lost it's most important trading partner/potential ally.
disclaimer: I obviously don't want to glorify the crimes that Nazi Germany, Japan and Italy would commit under these circumstances. This world is a hellhole and it is a much worse TL than OTL in pretty much every way you can imagine. The Holocaust, T4 and comparable crimes would happen but this time there would be no one to stop the Nazis. I don't think Britain would be able to win the war under these cirumstances so my base assumption is that the war ends in a draw at some point in the mid-late 40s.
I have a rough idea what would happen to the big 4 of this very fucked up world (Italy, Germany, Japan and the British Empire) but there is a lot to consider and I simply don't know enough about a lot of world regions.
How would this world look like 40 years after the ISOT in the summer of 1981?
The 4 main Empires would all have fairly dysfunctional but somewhat stable zones of influence.
Assume that most of Western, Northern and Central Europe is Nazi controlled or aligned. The whole region (except for Germany + Austria proper and certain regions in Czechia and Poland) are plagued by massive political violence, coups and regional conflicts. Nazi-Europe is divided into so called "Reichskommissariate" but Berlin's influence wildly varies from country to country. The Nazis ITTL were free to impose their horrible eugenic and racial policies in most of Europe but the vanishing of the Soviet Union at least prevented the horrors of Generalplan Ost. Exploiting the ressources of the virgin lands of the former Soviet Union mostly happens through forced labor and the East is a hellish place to die where the Nazi regime sends undesirables to die a slow death.
Japan was more or less successful in building their Co-Prosperity sphere. Similar to Germany they are reliant on local strong men in a lot of places and wide areas of China are actually controlled by local resistance movements. Biological and chemical warfare eroded environmental conditions in China and the unofficial policy of the Japanese Empire has been to just control certain areas of interest in China while applying "slash and burn" strategies to prevent the rise of a polity that could seriously threaten the existence of their Chinese puppet states. Despite Japanese efforts there are still very well organized nationalist and communist groups with some serious military muscle.
Italy is defintively the weakest of the major Empires. The Nazis have done their best to meddle in Italian affairs and both Empires were on the brink of open war several times. What prevented the outbreak of war was mostly internal political strife in the Nazi Empire and Italian concessions. The Italian holdings in Europe are comparatively small and their influence there is limited because Germany supported the growth of independent fascist parties. I am not sure to which extent Italy could have fulfilled it's territorial ambitions in Africa but the Lybian oil defintively strenghtened the Italian Empire and was a key factor in maintaining independence.
Great Britain is a tough nut to crack because I am not sure how it would develop in this world. It wouldn't be as democratic and progressive as IOTL but I don't think Britain would adopt the methods of their fascist competitors. I don't think Britain would be able to hold on to India much longer and the Nazis would probably use their connections in the Middle East to weaken British control there.
Apart from that I am really unsure how the rest of the world would develop. South and Central America would enjoy a degree of unprecedented independence because every major power is already brutally overstretched. Mexico would likely be a solid second tier power in this world because they would be the ones positioned to exploit the refilled Texan oil.
The Middle East would probably be a hotbed of violence and ideological strife. The Nazis, Italy and Great Britain would likely flood the region with weapons and money to further their cause.
The territory of the former United States could be a potential refugee for people fleeing genocide, repression and crushing poverty. The question is who would control the (re-)settlement of CONUS? Mexico, Canada and Great Britain are imho the likely parties to establish spheres of influence.
Spain and Portugal could be similar to Yugoslavia IOTL. Enjyoing the benefits of a neutral position between Germany, Italy and the British Empire.
I have no idea how India would develop and if an independence war against Britain would be likely under these cirumstances.
I would argue that this world would lag behind a solid 20-25 years in the technology department so in the early 80s technology would be comparable to OTLs early 60s or late 50s. Standards of living would be much lower even for the privileged and stuff like regular pandemics from out of control biological weapons would make this world a nightmare to live in.
Ideology is also a fascinating subject to ponder. Pure Marxism-Leninism would probably be replaced by various mixed ideologies similar to National Bolshevism. Fascism and Nazism would probably start to diverge heavily when the German-Italian split deepens. Nazism, Italian fascism and Spanish fascism would probably diverge quite heavily and other countries might adopt wildly mixed forms of the three ideologies.
I would be interested to hear the forums thoughts on this world.
The base idea is a world that is left behind after your typical ASB/ROB shenanigans.
The ASB decides to ISOT the United States and the Soviet Union to a virgin earth on the eve prior to Operation Barbarossa. It essentially is your classical communism vs. capitalism white room scenario.
I am however interested in the world this ASB has left behind. We are at the verge of the biggest escalation in WW2 and two of the main players are just replaced by virgin lands. The Nazis are dumbfounded when reconaissance flights show no signs of civilization behind Soviet occupied Poland while Great Britain has just lost it's most important trading partner/potential ally.
disclaimer: I obviously don't want to glorify the crimes that Nazi Germany, Japan and Italy would commit under these circumstances. This world is a hellhole and it is a much worse TL than OTL in pretty much every way you can imagine. The Holocaust, T4 and comparable crimes would happen but this time there would be no one to stop the Nazis. I don't think Britain would be able to win the war under these cirumstances so my base assumption is that the war ends in a draw at some point in the mid-late 40s.
I have a rough idea what would happen to the big 4 of this very fucked up world (Italy, Germany, Japan and the British Empire) but there is a lot to consider and I simply don't know enough about a lot of world regions.
How would this world look like 40 years after the ISOT in the summer of 1981?
The 4 main Empires would all have fairly dysfunctional but somewhat stable zones of influence.
Assume that most of Western, Northern and Central Europe is Nazi controlled or aligned. The whole region (except for Germany + Austria proper and certain regions in Czechia and Poland) are plagued by massive political violence, coups and regional conflicts. Nazi-Europe is divided into so called "Reichskommissariate" but Berlin's influence wildly varies from country to country. The Nazis ITTL were free to impose their horrible eugenic and racial policies in most of Europe but the vanishing of the Soviet Union at least prevented the horrors of Generalplan Ost. Exploiting the ressources of the virgin lands of the former Soviet Union mostly happens through forced labor and the East is a hellish place to die where the Nazi regime sends undesirables to die a slow death.
Japan was more or less successful in building their Co-Prosperity sphere. Similar to Germany they are reliant on local strong men in a lot of places and wide areas of China are actually controlled by local resistance movements. Biological and chemical warfare eroded environmental conditions in China and the unofficial policy of the Japanese Empire has been to just control certain areas of interest in China while applying "slash and burn" strategies to prevent the rise of a polity that could seriously threaten the existence of their Chinese puppet states. Despite Japanese efforts there are still very well organized nationalist and communist groups with some serious military muscle.
Italy is defintively the weakest of the major Empires. The Nazis have done their best to meddle in Italian affairs and both Empires were on the brink of open war several times. What prevented the outbreak of war was mostly internal political strife in the Nazi Empire and Italian concessions. The Italian holdings in Europe are comparatively small and their influence there is limited because Germany supported the growth of independent fascist parties. I am not sure to which extent Italy could have fulfilled it's territorial ambitions in Africa but the Lybian oil defintively strenghtened the Italian Empire and was a key factor in maintaining independence.
Great Britain is a tough nut to crack because I am not sure how it would develop in this world. It wouldn't be as democratic and progressive as IOTL but I don't think Britain would adopt the methods of their fascist competitors. I don't think Britain would be able to hold on to India much longer and the Nazis would probably use their connections in the Middle East to weaken British control there.
Apart from that I am really unsure how the rest of the world would develop. South and Central America would enjoy a degree of unprecedented independence because every major power is already brutally overstretched. Mexico would likely be a solid second tier power in this world because they would be the ones positioned to exploit the refilled Texan oil.
The Middle East would probably be a hotbed of violence and ideological strife. The Nazis, Italy and Great Britain would likely flood the region with weapons and money to further their cause.
The territory of the former United States could be a potential refugee for people fleeing genocide, repression and crushing poverty. The question is who would control the (re-)settlement of CONUS? Mexico, Canada and Great Britain are imho the likely parties to establish spheres of influence.
Spain and Portugal could be similar to Yugoslavia IOTL. Enjyoing the benefits of a neutral position between Germany, Italy and the British Empire.
I have no idea how India would develop and if an independence war against Britain would be likely under these cirumstances.
I would argue that this world would lag behind a solid 20-25 years in the technology department so in the early 80s technology would be comparable to OTLs early 60s or late 50s. Standards of living would be much lower even for the privileged and stuff like regular pandemics from out of control biological weapons would make this world a nightmare to live in.
Ideology is also a fascinating subject to ponder. Pure Marxism-Leninism would probably be replaced by various mixed ideologies similar to National Bolshevism. Fascism and Nazism would probably start to diverge heavily when the German-Italian split deepens. Nazism, Italian fascism and Spanish fascism would probably diverge quite heavily and other countries might adopt wildly mixed forms of the three ideologies.
I would be interested to hear the forums thoughts on this world.
Last edited:
Flectarn
Uphold Kali Akuno Thought
- Location
- Queen City of the Ohio
Probably you'd see lots of baathism type ideologies.
- Location
- the details
In this timeline the now non-existant US (and enormous resources it has) would be split between Mexico and Canada (a British Dominion when the timeline split) because no other country could get there first.
They'd be major players with at worst minor squabbles between them about exactly where the Canadian-Mexican border actually is.
They'd be major players with at worst minor squabbles between them about exactly where the Canadian-Mexican border actually is.
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Anchises
Leader of the Coconut Tree Fremen
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah I agree, I would also argue that we would see Strasserist and National Syndicalist dissenters spreading their ideologies. Back on ah.com there was a Axis victory story where Italy and Germany had trouble with worker movements using strikes to undermine the fascist regimes. That direction is also something really interesting to explore.
In this universe the Baathism equivalent would probably be noticeably less...progressive than IOTL. Sure, the actual Baathist regimes never lived up to their progressive promises but in this world Arab (National)Socialism would probably have a very different relation to existing reactionary elites from the start.
Canada and Mexico would certainly benefit but we should keep in mind that the population for (re-)settling the now virgin USA has to come from somewhere. Mexico would quickly exploit the rich oil deposits in virgin Texas sure but actually filling Texas with settlers would take a lot of time. Europe is in the iron grip of the fascists, just like large parts of Asia so we won't see the massive emigration again that helped US population growth IOTL.