I would like to point out that that would be more steam than mist. Incredibly painful to those who come in contact with it before it cools off, and more than enough to inflict third degree burns.

Admittedly, that has its own uses but "safe training aid" isn't one of them.
Fair point. ...On the other hand, as a semi-long duration, more-quiet area denial form of explosive seals, it has potential, just not for training.

e: It could also be used to Substitute with to escape a melee and force the enemy combatant in contact with scalding hot gaseous water :D
 
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Ooh, a white hot piece of iron inside a macerator scroll would make a wonderful flashbang.

You get a moment where the surface area of the white hot metal is huge, meaning the amount of light emitted is correspondingly large. But the fact that each particle of iron is near significantly larger volume of cooler air means that the local temperature doesn't rise all that much. It also means that the particles of iron would cool off much more quickly, leading to a short burst of intense light with very little damage for anyone not caught directly within the sphere where iron particles appear.

Mind, depending on the exact settings of the macerator seal someone caught in the blast could experience a wide range of things:
  • Tiny first degree burns everywhere that's exposed to open air. (like the ones you get when a spark from a sparkler touches your skin, just everywhere)
  • A much smaller number of progressively worse burns. (This would probably only happen if the flashbang is set to look like a flood of sparks or fireflies, which means it's not all that good as a flashbang.)
  • A thin coating of incredibly fine iron oxide everywhere that isn't particularly dangerous. (It's most likely to just give you a coughing fit if it makes your mucus really thick. Iron Oxide is basically inert and isn't in a form that can cause iron toxicity or liver failure if it's not directly introduced into your bloodstream. At least that what a quick google search seems to say.)
If we aim for the latter (smallest possible particle size), I think we might have a genuinely good non-lethal option for delaying and disorienting an enemy.
 
Ooh, a white hot piece of iron inside a macerator scroll would make a wonderful flashbang.

You get a moment where the surface area of the white hot metal is huge, meaning the amount of light emitted is correspondingly large. But the fact that each particle of iron is near significantly larger volume of cooler air means that the local temperature doesn't rise all that much. It also means that the particles of iron would cool off much more quickly, leading to a short burst of intense light with very little damage for anyone not caught directly within the sphere where iron particles appear.

Mind, depending on the exact settings of the macerator seal someone caught in the blast could experience a wide range of things:
  • Tiny first degree burns everywhere that's exposed to open air. (like the ones you get when a spark from a sparkler touches your skin, just everywhere)
  • A much smaller number of progressively worse burns. (This would probably only happen if the flashbang is set to look like a flood of sparks or fireflies, which means it's not all that good as a flashbang.)
  • A thin coating of incredibly fine iron oxide everywhere that isn't particularly dangerous. (It's most likely to just give you a coughing fit if it makes your mucus really thick. Iron Oxide is basically inert and isn't in a form that can cause iron toxicity or liver failure if it's not directly introduced into your bloodstream. At least that what a quick google search seems to say.)
If we aim for the latter (smallest possible particle size), I think we might have a genuinely good non-lethal option for delaying and disorienting an enemy.
We need to get a semi-long term base setup so that we can get a forge up for all these weird projects :D

e: Also, goggles are going to be a necessity soon. What can we make those out of?
 
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I think our team really needs SOPs for travel.
I will try to add them to the wiki tomorrow.

Ideas I have so far:
  • Hiding tracks like a hare:
    1. While fleeing, stop and carefully backtrack stepping in your footprints so that it looks like your trail suddenly vanishes. (or, instead of backtracking, send clones to leave 100 steps of trail and dispel)
    2. After backtracking for about one hundred steps (or while clones create false trail), PMYF to the side. PMYF one by one, remaining people reseal substitution targets to hide the fact we substituted.
      • Use an ice block as the Substitution target. Given enough time, it will melt and hide the fact we substituted.
      • Use the stone we grabbed from the bottom of some pond as the Substitution target. Substitute from water surface. Stone will sink and make it difficult to notice it's out of place.
      • Seal the log/stone we found while fleeing, PMYF away while standing where stone/log was before. It will look like we moved stone/log, obscuring the fact we used it as a substitution target.
  • Water keeps no footprints:
    • Use water-walking to lose trackers.
      • Use PMYF to enter and exit body of water to further complicate tracking.
  • Become the hated enemy of the Inuzuka:
    • Regularly move through areas that are sheltered from the wind. While in such areas, use track-concealing tricks and leave airborne poisons that do horrible things to dogs and other creatures that breathe them in.
Any more thoughts/ideas about ways to improve our team's stealth while traveling?
 
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@MadScientist: You might want to add a section to the sealing tech tree, that just covers the possible use cases of the base macerator seal. Things that don't need any actual seal-work to develop, just testing to make sure the options on the macerator seal and the composition of the payload are optimized.

Off the top of my head:
  • Fuel Air Explosive (Payload: Wood, Coal, Other Flammables)
  • Mist (Payload: Water)
  • Pepper Spray (Payload: Strong Chillis, Pepper, Other Irritants)
  • Poison Mist (Payload: Water + Poison)
  • Flashbang (Payload: White Hot Iron, White Hot Magnesium)
  • Confetti (Payload: Colored Paper)
  • Mashed Potato (Payload: Steamed Potato + Butter + Spices)
  • Scent Bomb (Payload: Scented Oils)
  • Shrapnel Bomb (Payload: Stones)
  • Woodchips (Payload: Wood)
  • Composting (Payload: Organic Refuse)
Edit:
  • Smoke Bomb (Payload: Talc, Ash, basically anything opaque, not-dense, and non-flammable)
  • I Hate You Bomb (Payload: Glass)
  • Asbestos Bomb (Payload: Molten Glass, Molten Silicates)
  • I Hate You and Your Unborn Children Bomb (Payload: Radioactives)
    • Do we even know what radioactivity is?
  • Glue Bomb (Payload: Glue, Nobby's Sticky Syrup, Other Sticky Liquids)
    • This would be super annoying to everyone involved. They probably wouldn't be all that hurt by it, but imagine being covered in superglue in the middle of combat. You basically have to rip your skin apart to move since the glue will make it stick to everything.
  • Feather Bomb (Payload: Feathers)
    • We could use this for dynamic entrances or something?
  • Nut Butter (Payload: Peanuts, Almonds, etc..)
 
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I think our team really needs SOPs for travel.
I will try to add them to the wiki tomorrow.

Ideas I have so far:
  • Hiding tracks like a hare:
    1. While fleeing, stop and carefully backtrack stepping in your footprints so that it looks like your trail suddenly vanishes. (or, instead of backtracking, send clones to leave 100 steps of trail and dispel)
    2. After backtracking for about one hundred steps (or while clones create false trail), PMYF to the side. PMYF one by one, remaining people reseal substitution targets to hide the fact we substituted.
      • Use an ice block as the Substitution target. Given enough time, it will melt and hide the fact we substituted.
      • Use the stone we grabbed from the bottom of some pond as the Substitution target. Substitute from water surface. Stone will sink and make it difficult to notice it's out of place.
      • Seal the log/stone we found while fleeing, PMYF away while standing where stone/log was before. It will look like we moved stone/log, obscuring the fact we used it as a substitution target.
  • Water keeps no footprints:
    • Use water-walking to lose trackers.
      • Use PMYF to enter and exit body of water to further complicate tracking.
  • Become the hated enemy of the Inuzuka:
    • Regularly move through areas that are sheltered from the wind. While in such areas, use track-concealing tricks and leave airborne poisons that do horrible things to dogs and other creatures that breathe them in.
Any more thoughts/ideas about ways to improve our team's stealth while traveling?

  • Nobby Power
    • When walking on a body of water use Nobby to constantly gather and redistribute chakra at a sustainable pace, allowing for effectively indefinite chakra boost.
  • Sea Route
    • When using a disposable boat ditch the boat out of sight of land and water walk the last chunk of the distance. If the boat can be stored in a scroll, do that instead.
  • Pangolin Usage
    • If possible, use a pangolin scout to survey our route.
    • Otherwise, keep a high awareness pangolin with us on the route to help avoid villages and settlements by using their superior sense of smell. Give them instructions to dispel as soon as we indicate or a non-group human is sighted.
 
  • Pangolin Usage
    • If possible, use a pangolin scout to survey our route.
    • Otherwise, keep a high awareness pangolin with us on the route to help avoid villages and settlements by using their superior sense of smell. Give them instructions to dispel as soon as we indicate or a non-group human is sighted.
Here's a question for Kei: Is she able to tell when her pangolin desummon by chakra magics or whatever?
 
@MadScientist: You might want to add a section to the sealing tech tree, that just covers the possible use cases of the base macerator seal. Things that don't need any actual seal-work to develop, just testing to make sure the options on the macerator seal and the composition of the payload are optimized.

Off the top of my head:
  • Fuel Air Explosive (Payload: Wood, Coal, Other Flammables)
  • Mist (Payload: Water)
  • Pepper Spray (Payload: Strong Chillis, Pepper, Other Irritants)
  • Poison Mist (Payload: Water + Poison)
  • Flashbang (Payload: White Hot Iron, White Hot Magnesium)
  • Confetti (Payload: Colored Paper)
  • Mashed Potato (Payload: Steamed Potato + Butter + Spices)
  • Scent Bomb (Payload: Scented Oils)
  • Shrapnel Bomb (Payload: Stones)
  • Woodchips (Payload: Wood)
  • Composting (Payload: Organic Refuse)
There's a copy of the tech tree on the wiki. You could add them there. (I'm on mobile right now or I'd add it myself)
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien what level of Transformation would let a character do the blanket-deceleration thing and reliably not break anything important?

Have Keiko use Frozen Skien to optimize how fun it is. (I just want to see if this is possible)
I want to read the scene where Hazou proposed this :D

Can our team name be the Yūrei?
Translation?

Can we limit our immediate plans to feasible ones, please? I don't care if we eventually want to go to Sea or Vegetables or whatever, but I do want the hivemind to realize that these plans are not fUCKING REALISTIC RIGHT NOW
I don't think anyone's proposing to do those things right now. Or if they are they haven't written up a plan for them.

Speaking of which, the current plan is below. Changes:
  • Linked @Jello_Raptor's map of areas to avoid and recommended the green circle as a staging ground for the jump to Iron after our squad rests.
    • Relatedly, deleted 'riverbed overhang' as an example camping spot.
  • Put the modifications in a slightly different order to emphasize the use of Clear Communication no Jutsu.
  • Put the modifications inside a spoiler to make the plan more convenient for @Velorien.
  • Added anti-injury and anti-detection goals, because those seem preferrable.
Speaking of voting -

[X] Action Plan: Breathe, Drink, Flee
Goals
  1. Survive.
  2. Don't get permanently injured
  3. Get out of semi-immediate danger, recover somewhat.
  4. Remain undetected/don't cause WW4 to become any more likely
  5. Get to more long-term safety, begin full recovery.
Methods
  1. Noburi finishes field-treating Akane.
  2. Get moving again, rotating two-person teams to assist/carry Akane depending on her level of recovery. Hopefully this will let us move a little further before we need to rest.
  3. Get away from the area of the forest fire and from border/river areas we expect to be heavily patrolled. See this here map - avoid red and orange areas.
    1. The fire will have drawn a lot of attention. Prefer speed at first to get clear of the area, then switch to stealth so incoming teams will miss us/our camp.
    2. If convenient and we detect no threats, go to the nearest body of water (the nearby river?) and gather as much chakra is available to be distributed before moving and resting.
    3. Distribute chakra to try and give us the best chance to fight off anything that shows up - mostly to Inoue, Keiko, Kagome (combination of more dangerous/ less injured people)
  4. Identify somewhere fairly well hidden/secure to camp, e.g. high up in trees, underground. Conceal the spot as well as possible if it is visible from the outside.
    1. If in a situation where excavating might help, attempt to summon Pandaa, both to check if he got out in time and to ask him to help dig/keep watch. Otherwise, Keiko should save her chakra.
  5. When the party is on their feet again, either run to the green circle in the map linked above for a little more recovery before the border crossing, or immediately follow the pre-pursuit plan with the following modifications:
    1. No Swamp of Death, due to Mari's instructions and our current sorry state
    2. Modify the Hugs for Everyone debrief plan:
      1. Use CCnJ wherever feasible, with the goal of minimizing secondary drama created by clearing up the current drama.
      2. We are showing Kagome the shortlist, not all the crazy things the thread has dreamt up
      3. After reassuring Keiko, bring up the hurt caused by her statements and ask for clarification (in Clear Communication no Jutsu style)
      4. Commend Noburi for his contributions - sneaky chakra level detection on J, subduing Yami, keeping us all going and saving Akane. Ask if he'd like to talk about Keiko's outburst in private.
      5. Don't assume Akane feels like she didn't contribute. Compliment her sneaking and trap-disabling, and discuss the failure to communicate her exhaustion - teammates can't support each other if they don't know something is wrong.
      6. Generally tone down the parts where Hazou blames himself. Accept responsibility where it's due (pushing to take the mission in the first place, pushing to go after the target right after Yamk arrived), but putting it all on his own shoulders is kind of presumptuous and denies others' agency
        1. He can still do it internally.
      7. Points to bring up for the whole-team postmortem (inspired by @Kiba's failure analysis, which we are not sharing)
        1. Right?
          1. Initial scouting and info gathering gathered useful info and didn't expose ourselves
          2. Made positive initial contact with a useful person (Honami)
          3. Most importantly, got everyone out alive and in one piece even after things went bad
        2. Wrong?
          1. Underestimated the political gravity of the DMZ
          2. Rushed to complete the mission within the confines of a familiar but disadvantageous environment
            1. (?not sure how to phrase this. Basically, Yami showed up and we jumped on the situation, rather than having done that initially while J was out bathing, or waiting to see if J left for his other mission, or ambushing them in the wilderness; and got the worst of both worlds)
Contingencies
  1. Stop to rest well before everyone collapses from carrying each other, so we still have some chance of fighting off chakra monsters. This may mean we can't even afford to move right now.
  2. Ideally, move away from the water after draining from it, as rivers will likely be serving as pathways for incoming ninja.
  3. Once rested/not in a desperate situation, continue with contingencies from the original plan except for writing down what we remember seeing but not tracing - including dubious information may trip up our attempts to decode the parts we know are right.

Now, back to the nonsense that is trying to come up with training plans.
[] Training Hazou: Sealing Specialization
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Intelligence 13 [62]
Intelligence 14 [90]
Sealing 13 [103]
Sealing 14 [117]
Save 6 XP

[] Training Hazou: High-Capacity Sealing
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Capacity 8 [52]
Capacity 9 [70]
Intelligence 13 [96]
Sealing 13 [109]
Save 14 XP [123]

[] Training Hazou: Stealth-Capacity Sealing
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Capacity 8 [52]
Capacity 9 [70]
Intelligence 13 [96]
Sealing 13 [109]
Stealth 9 [118]
Save 5 XP

[] Training Hazou: High-Stealth Sealing
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Capacity 8 [52]
Intelligence 13 [78]
Sealing 13 [91]
Stealth 9 [100]
Stealth 10 [110]
Stealth 11 [121]
Save 2 XP

Realized I had done the math on Noburi's training wrong, here's some that should be accurate.
This one puts him at MedKnow 9 / MedNin 10, leaving him 6.5 XP from MedKnow 10.
[] Training Noburi: Medical Specialization
Withdraw 38 XP from Medic Fund (136.5 XP total)
Resolve 4 [8]
MedNin 7 [15]
MedNin 8 [23]

MedKnow 4 [27]
MedKnow 5 [32]
MedKnow 6 [38]

Intelligence 3 [44]
MedKnow 7 [51]
MedKnow 8 [59]
MedKnow 9 [68]

Resolve 5 [78]
Wits 4 [86]
Control 10 [106]
MedNin 9 [115]
MedNin 10 [125]

Save 11.5 XP [98.5]

As above, but buy one level of stealth. 16.5 XP to 10/10
[] Training Noburi: Sneaky MedSpec
Withdraw 38 XP from Medic Fund (136.5 XP total)
Resolve 4 [8]
MedNin 7 [15]
MedNin 8 [23]

MedKnow 4 [27]
MedKnow 5 [32]
MedKnow 6 [38]

Intelligence 3 [44]
MedKnow 7 [51]
MedKnow 8 [59]
MedKnow 9 [68]

Resolve 5 [78]
Wits 4 [86]
Control 10 [106]
MedNin 9 [115]
MedNin 10 [125]

Stealth 10 [135]

Save 1.5 XP

Alternatively, get to reasonable levels without too many stat bumps (Know 9, Nin 8), get stealth to 12, and keep a chunk of XP towards the next round of training. Needs 39.5 XP for 10/10.
[X] Training Noburi: Stealthy Medic
Withdraw 38 XP from Medic Fund (136.5 XP total)
Resolve 4 [8]
MedNin 7 [15]
MedNin 8 [23]

MedKnow 4 [27]
MedKnow 5 [32]
MedKnow 6 [38]

Intelligence 3 [44]
MedKnow 7 [51]
MedKnow 8 [59]
MedKnow 9 [68]

Stealth 10 [78]
Stealth 11 [89]
Stealth 12 [101]

Save 35.5 XP

Removed the transformation levels from Keiko and Akane, at least until we know how much is actually useful.
[] Training Keiko: Quiet Capacitor
Capacity 11 [22]
Stealth 11 [33]
Stealth 12 [45]
Save 16 XP

[] Training Keiko: Quick Quiet Capacitor
Capacity 11 [22]
Stealth 11 [33]
Stealth 12 [45]
Tacmov 16 [61]
Save 0 XP

[] Training Keiko: High-Capacity Stealth
Capacity 11 [22]
Capacity 12 [46]
Stealth 11 [57]
Save 4 XP

Anybody have alternate plans for Akane?
[] Training Akane: High Capacity Roundup 2.0
Capacity 6 [12]
Capacity 7 [26]
Capacity 8 [42]
Stealth 12 [54]
Diplomacy 6 [60]
MechApt 15 [75]
Awareness 10 [85]
Save 0 XP
 
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We should find a technique that requires ludicrously high Int but little else for Hazou to use his Intelligence toward in combat. ...not sure how you'd explain searching for that kind of technique, though.
 
Idea: we should see if we can create a Weapons style for Keiko, since she's currently maxed-out there.

Voting suite that gets Stealth 12 for everyone:
[X] Training Hazou: High-Stealth Sealing
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Capacity 8 [52]
Intelligence 13 [78]
Sealing 13 [91]
Stealth 9 [100]
Stealth 10 [110]
Stealth 11 [121]
Save 2 XP

[X] Training Keiko: Quick Quiet Capacitor
Capacity 11 [22]
Stealth 11 [33]
Stealth 12 [45]
Tacmov 16 [61]
Save 0 XP

[X] Training Noburi: Stealthy Medic
Withdraw 38 XP from Medic Fund (136.5 XP total)
Resolve 4 [8]
MedNin 7 [15]
MedNin 8 [23]

MedKnow 4 [27]
MedKnow 5 [32]
MedKnow 6 [38]

Intelligence 3 [44]
MedKnow 7 [51]
MedKnow 8 [59]
MedKnow 9 [68]

Stealth 10 [78]
Stealth 11 [89]
Stealth 12 [101]

Save 35.5 XP

[X] Training Akane: High Capacity Roundup 2.0
Capacity 6 [12]
Capacity 7 [26]
Capacity 8 [42]
Stealth 12 [54]
Diplomacy 6 [60]
MechApt 15 [75]
Awareness 10 [85]
Save 0 XP
 
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Glue Bomb (Payload: Glue, Nobby's Sticky Syrup, Other Sticky Liquids)
I giggled.
Evil ghost, malevolent spirit sorta thing. Think Wrath or something, iirc.
Now, back to the nonsense that is trying to come up with training plans.
The fixation on Sealing training for Hazou bothers me. Not just from you Oli, in general. We can do plenty w/sealing 12 and we shouldn't be doing research until malus fades anyway. We have so many things to improve on, the XP sink #1 can wait, imo :/
 
The fixation on Sealing training for Hazou bothers me. Not just from you Oli, in general. We can do plenty w/sealing 12 and we shouldn't be doing research until malus fades anyway. We have so many things to improve on, the XP sink #1 can wait, imo :/
The malus is part of why we're focusing on sealing. If we improve our sealing by two we can work on stuff that we could do at sealing 12 two months before we'd otherwise be able to. Although putting 2 points into Sealing is too much, I agree, but I don't think 1 point is that big of a problem. I mean, sure, it's 39 XP, but that means we can START on research sooner, and finish it faster when we're at our best.

Also, I REALLY want Nobby at 10 MedNin and Know.
 
We should find a technique that requires ludicrously high Int but little else for Hazou to use his Intelligence toward in combat. ...not sure how you'd explain searching for that kind of technique, though.

Eliezer Yudkoysky said:
Imagine that firing a gun involved math. An experienced combat algebraist who practices daily is going to have an advantage, but so will a professional mathematician who's had some training and been in a few fights.

And both of them had better flee like hell from the hard-bitten, daily-bloodied, leather-clad form of Enrico Fermi as he stalks forth to

I'm going to stop that right there before it turns into a book.



Also, I REALLY want Nobby at 10 MedNin and Know.
He can't quite afford that yet, though if he went with the all-medical training plan he could probably do it within an update or so but will be able to do pretty much nothing else. A lot of that also requires that we get the whole recovery time uninterrupted in Iron, unless Kei is willing to spend a slot on a mednin teacher and pangolin mednin works for humans.
 
Oh, as for what to do with the rest of Akane's XP? A rank in Awareness. That's something else we've been solidly neglecting in our reliance on Mari.

e: Scratch that, she's at max.

e2: Wait nevermind, I misread that, she's still good to be bumped up to 10.
 
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Basics first. Hazou didn't get his sealing in one go either, and it's not like we won't have other stuff to do.
I'm kinda worried that Ste 12 is too low. If we go for 15 and hope TM doesn't fail us again, how much leftover XP are we looking at?
 
You'll have to justify why we are skimming over the basic.
I, for one, found @OliWhail's probability calculations to be persuasive.

I cannot find them, but the gist was: specialization is better than being a rounded character. It is much better to beat one of enemy rolls than fumble two rolls a little bit.
Our highest evasive stat is TacMove, if we want maximum chances of survival we should focus on getting more of it.
 
I cannot find them, but the gist was: specialization is better than being a rounded character. It is much better to beat one of enemy rolls than fumble two rolls a little bit.
Our highest evasive stat is TacMove, if we want maximum chances of survival we should focus on getting more of it.
I actually agreed with @Twofold though that if we want to pick one to specialize it should be stealth, because not being seen in the first place is useful for hiding our movements from authorities. That's why I voted for the Stealth 12 plans.

Basics first. Hazou didn't get his sealing in one go either, and it's not like we won't have other stuff to do.
I'm kinda worried that Ste 12 is too low. If we go for 15 and hope TM doesn't fail us again, how much leftover XP are we looking at?
Here's some calculations that were done earlier:

Here's what Stealth 15 would costs for each character:
Hazou

Stealth 9 [9]
Stealth 10 [19]
Stealth 11 [30]
Stealth 12 [42]
Stealth 13 [55]
Stealth 14 [69]

Total 69 XP


Keiko

Stealth 11 [11]
Stealth 12 [23]
Stealth 13 [36]
Stealth 14 [50]
Stealth 15 [65]

Total 65 XP



Noburi

Stealth 10 [10]
Stealth 11 [21]
Stealth 12 [33]
Stealth 13 [46]
Stealth 14 [60]
Stealth 15 [75]

Total 75 XP


Akane

Stealth 12 [12]
Stealth 13 [25]
Stealth 14 [39]
Stealth 15 [54]

Total 54 XP
 
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