I see. This is confirmation that the Seventh Path is inside a massive storage scroll and the Summoning Scrolls are hax scrolls to let you enter the content of the storage.
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
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- He/Him
The clan exists as a legal entity, with all privileges that grants. If Naruto wanted to become head of Gōketsu then he would need to leave Uzumaki and become Gōketsu.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
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That was very unhelpful. At this point I'm forced to believe it's intentional, I will take the hint and drop the subject.
I said I thought Naruto probably felt emotionally invested in the existence of Uzumaki as a clan. You asked in what sense clan Uzumaki still existed and cited a couple of things claiming they didn't exist. You got an answer about in what sense Uzumaki still exists. I'm not sure what you expect here.
Sasuke: So, Naruto. We've been best bro since 4ever.
Naruto: Yes...
Sasuke: So yeah. I now know why Itachi did it. He did it to save the village and the Uchiha.
Naruto: what???
Sasuke: Itachi went missing after following Danzo's order because of potential treason from my clan. The third hokage went ballistic after that and eliminated Danzo.
Naruto: I see.... Brain tick tock. Light bulb.
Naruto: I got an idea, but you're not going to like this.
Uzumaki as a legal entity is one more voting power in the liberal block.
Naruto: Yes...
Sasuke: So yeah. I now know why Itachi did it. He did it to save the village and the Uchiha.
Naruto: what???
Sasuke: Itachi went missing after following Danzo's order because of potential treason from my clan. The third hokage went ballistic after that and eliminated Danzo.
Naruto: I see.... Brain tick tock. Light bulb.
Naruto: I got an idea, but you're not going to like this.
Uzumaki as a legal entity is one more voting power in the liberal block.
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To be honest.. we could ask Naruto why Itachi went missing. Sasuke knows and its additional insight on Akatsuki, which could be important to our decision.
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I was honestly trying to be helpful but I guess I misunderstood the question. What exactly were you looking to know?
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
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Ok so first of all, you know that thing that the Nara do, where they assume you are intelligent enough to skip steps in the conversation? We are not doing that. We haven't been doing that. I feel like all the steps are pretty clearly laid out. If necessary, I will go back and quote the relevant sections of recent thread discussion, but I hope the rest of my post will make that redundant.
You know that other thing the Nara do, when they assume you're an idiot? They spell everything out in excruciating detail, even the things you already know.
Yes, I know that Naruto Uzumaki is head of the 'Uzumaki' clan of one. I know that him joining the Goketsu would effectively dissolve the Uzumaki clan. You pointing this out is insulting, in that it assumes that I'm really so stupid that I need this pointed out to me. Fine, I grant that you can't keep track of everybody in the thread, what they probably know, and so on. But this is extremely basic stuff! Give me the benefit of the doubt, please.
Somebody suggested Naruto take over Goketsu in order to protect them from Akatsuki while Hazo is gone. They're not very likely to be able to get away with interrogating the Hokage's own family. I supported this idea. Somebody else suggested that Naruto was too attached to the Uzumaki to do this.
I'm questioning what exactly it means to be 'attached to the Uzumaki' given there's no people, buildings, traditions etc. It's just Naruto by himself, a clan of one, and he's bringing himself with him to the Goketsu. I asked this of the person who raised this objection, and then I asked you, @eaglejarl, for clarification; are there any Uzumaki assets, people, etc that would be lost if he joined Goketsu? Is there more to the clan than just the man himself? Anything off-screen that we don't have access to but Hazo would? I mentioned Karin, aka Karin Uzumaki, a canon subordinate of Orochimaru who has not been mentioned in story, as a hypothetical example of a reason why the Uzumaki might need to continue to exist independent of the Goketsu. Although, if such assets did exist, they could just continue the Uzumaki clan without Naruto...
The other, more obvious reasons, which I also believe I addressed directly, is the clan vote and tax privileges that a clan head receives.
As Hokage, Naruto does not need his own clan head vote. The clan head are an advisory group, and as amusing as it is for the image of a Naruto shadow clone to sit there and vote on things while Hokage-Naruto remains aloof, that is on the level of a prank, not a political reality that is worth leaving the Goketsu vulnerable to Akatsuki interrogation.
As Hokage, Naruto has all the funding of the tower at his disposal.
So I'm dismissing those two points, and again asking if there is anything unknown about the Uzumaki clan that would make Naruto too 'attached to the Uzumaki' to give up the position.
Naruto has no children or heirs, nobody to pass the Uzumaki vote on to.
Naruto cannot vote as Uzumaki himself
Hypothetically, in the future, Naruto might have an Uzumaki heir; we would likely have also achieved world peace by this point, and the voting/tax benefits of this position would be marginal at best.
Naruto (as seen in quotes below) has shown willingness to ditch the Uzumaki name, and whatever sentimental value might be attached.
So again, what exactly does it mean for Naruto to be attached to the Uzumaki? What benefit is there in the Hokage representing a clan of one which can't even vote and doesn't need income?
and I swear to god, if you hit me with some crap about 'actually, the income of the hokage is limited and so the tax benefits of remaining his own clan....' as if the proposal isn't for him to take over the most filthy rich fucking clan in leaf, I will be pissed.
Note the second last quote; Mari is suggesting that him joining the Goketsu would lose him political power, reputation, and a vote. I've already discussed why that is no longer relevant. Note the last quote; the Hokage holding a clan head vote does not use that vote.
You know that other thing the Nara do, when they assume you're an idiot? They spell everything out in excruciating detail, even the things you already know.
Yes, I know that Naruto Uzumaki is head of the 'Uzumaki' clan of one. I know that him joining the Goketsu would effectively dissolve the Uzumaki clan. You pointing this out is insulting, in that it assumes that I'm really so stupid that I need this pointed out to me. Fine, I grant that you can't keep track of everybody in the thread, what they probably know, and so on. But this is extremely basic stuff! Give me the benefit of the doubt, please.
Somebody suggested Naruto take over Goketsu in order to protect them from Akatsuki while Hazo is gone. They're not very likely to be able to get away with interrogating the Hokage's own family. I supported this idea. Somebody else suggested that Naruto was too attached to the Uzumaki to do this.
I'm questioning what exactly it means to be 'attached to the Uzumaki' given there's no people, buildings, traditions etc. It's just Naruto by himself, a clan of one, and he's bringing himself with him to the Goketsu. I asked this of the person who raised this objection, and then I asked you, @eaglejarl, for clarification; are there any Uzumaki assets, people, etc that would be lost if he joined Goketsu? Is there more to the clan than just the man himself? Anything off-screen that we don't have access to but Hazo would? I mentioned Karin, aka Karin Uzumaki, a canon subordinate of Orochimaru who has not been mentioned in story, as a hypothetical example of a reason why the Uzumaki might need to continue to exist independent of the Goketsu. Although, if such assets did exist, they could just continue the Uzumaki clan without Naruto...
The other, more obvious reasons, which I also believe I addressed directly, is the clan vote and tax privileges that a clan head receives.
As Hokage, Naruto does not need his own clan head vote. The clan head are an advisory group, and as amusing as it is for the image of a Naruto shadow clone to sit there and vote on things while Hokage-Naruto remains aloof, that is on the level of a prank, not a political reality that is worth leaving the Goketsu vulnerable to Akatsuki interrogation.
As Hokage, Naruto has all the funding of the tower at his disposal.
So I'm dismissing those two points, and again asking if there is anything unknown about the Uzumaki clan that would make Naruto too 'attached to the Uzumaki' to give up the position.
Naruto has no children or heirs, nobody to pass the Uzumaki vote on to.
Naruto cannot vote as Uzumaki himself
Hypothetically, in the future, Naruto might have an Uzumaki heir; we would likely have also achieved world peace by this point, and the voting/tax benefits of this position would be marginal at best.
Naruto (as seen in quotes below) has shown willingness to ditch the Uzumaki name, and whatever sentimental value might be attached.
So again, what exactly does it mean for Naruto to be attached to the Uzumaki? What benefit is there in the Hokage representing a clan of one which can't even vote and doesn't need income?
and I swear to god, if you hit me with some crap about 'actually, the income of the hokage is limited and so the tax benefits of remaining his own clan....' as if the proposal isn't for him to take over the most filthy rich fucking clan in leaf, I will be pissed.
Note the second last quote; Mari is suggesting that him joining the Goketsu would lose him political power, reputation, and a vote. I've already discussed why that is no longer relevant. Note the last quote; the Hokage holding a clan head vote does not use that vote.
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- Yes.
Chill. Out. There is no need for this kind of language.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I did, perhaps, suggest that the Uzumaki clan didn't exist. Let me be more clear then.
The Uzumaki clan, as I understand it, is Naruto himself and nobody else. The Uzumaki clan, in its position as a powerful clan of Konoha, receives the benefit of a vote advising the Hokage, certain tax benefits, and various legal benefits which may or may not actually exist beyond the nebulous idea of clan ninja being privileged.
As Hokage, Naruto does not have a clan vote. The Uzumaki no longer have a clan vote.
As Hokage, Naruto is not beholden to clan tax laws. The Uzumaki no longer receive tax benefits.
As Hokage, the various clan privileges that may or may not mechanically exist do not matter to Naruto. Therefore, the Uzumaki recieve no legal benefits due to their clan status.
So when I suggested the Uzumaki might not exist anymore, what I really meant to say was that Naruto himself, the one and only Uzumaki clan member, receives no benefit to being Uzumaki. That the Uzumaki clan itself, as an idea or a concept separate from Naruto, does not functionally exist in any meaningful way. It cannot act or influence anything in leaf currently.
Apologies for being unclear, I hope I've explained my thought process to your satisfaction.
With that said, can I ask you to explain what you meant when you said he was attached to the Uzumaki? You were slightly unclear about what that actually meant, in terms of actionable information.
... The f bomb? Or me saying that I'm upset about being treated like an idiot? I'm pretty sure I was not insulting or swearing at any actual people here. I think I have a right to be upset when I feel I am being treated unfairly, but I'm doing my best to be open and clear about the issues as I see them without attacking anybody. But yes, I've typed up quite enough for the moment, I think I can afford to take a few minutes break to 'chill out' and come back to the thread later.
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- Location
- Book Fort
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- They/Them
Seconding this.
EJ seems to have been responding in good faith, and seems to honestly trying to find where the miscommunication/disconnect is.
Snapping at people like that isn't cool, and it isn't going to do anything productive.
(Disclaimer: sick/sleepy af right now, SPaG tertiary concern)
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Not going to tell anyone how they should feel about something but I just honestly don't know how you can feel this offended by an author directly and earnestly answering a question you asked. Even if he misunderstood what you were asking (and personally I'm not sure I would pin that blame on him here) that's not really a reason to take it as maliciousness or some kind of slight. I highly doubt anyone thought your question made you seem dumb or ignorant. I would prefer not seeing this unwarranted hostility here and I suspect others would feel the same. It also benefits you, as it makes people more likely to take your arguments more seriously
- Location
- Yes.
You attribute malicious behavior to eaglejarl's attempt to answer your question, and respond by belittling him (the entire spiel you made about the Nara). You could have cut off literally your entire wall of text and said:
- I mean that Naruto doesn't seem to have much to link him to "Clan Uzumaki" save for the political/legal power it gives him, given that he has no lands or family, and only stories told to him by non-Uzumaki Clan members (Jiraiya). Given this, is there going to be an emotional issue with Naruto leaving his clan/becoming Goketsu?
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- UK
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It's fair to say that Hazō has encountered it, but only in the same sense that he's encountered the Great Seal. He doesn't know how it works on any kind of technical level, and he has no idea what the TNs associated with researching it himself would be, so it doesn't inform potential rift seal research.
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If you feel that your post did not come across as attacking anybody, I assure you that you are mistaken. We have, to date, never had to institute a rule about civil behaviour in the thread. Please do not be the person who makes us do so.
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- USA
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Wow. That's a lot.
For the record: I'm sick, the thread has been moving really fast, and I'm likely not reading as closely as I could. I had no intention of insulting you, I didn't and don't think you're an idiot, and I was sincerely trying to be helpful. I'm sorry it didn't come off that way; text flattens tone so it's easy to seem like you're being disparaging without intending it.
The QMs haven't discussed this in detail so everything that follows is ponwog (Personal Opinion, not Word of God), but I'm reasonably confident the others will agree.
Naruto is justifiably proud of his lineage and having it cease to exist is a bit sad even if not unthinkable. There's no other known family members so far as I'm aware. Hazō is not aware of other Uzumaki assets but it's quite reasonable to think they exist -- probably land holdings, maybe resource sources (timber land, mines, etc)
The Uzumaki are a voting clan, which is a big deal. True, Naruto doesn't need the vote right now, but he won't be Hokage forever. He can adopt other ninja into the clan under the same deal as any other clan can. He can adopt essentially unlimited amounts of civilians, as any other clan can. If he wants to ensure the continuation of the Uzumaki, he can do that with some paperwork and some administrative effort. The reason he hasn't is most likely because there hasn't been a pressing need. (Also, probably part of it is that teenagers aren't good at thinking about their own mortality, especially when the teenager in question is a minor demigod and well on the way to being a living legend, but that's not something Hazō is likely to recognize.)
Dissolving the clan, on the other hand, might or might not be a lot of work. Hazō doesn't know the details, but at an absolute minimum Naruto would have to transfer control of all assets and that could end up being a pain depending on how many and what type they are.
They do, actually. He's still the head of Uzumaki even if he's Hokage. It's a minor thing since he can freely ignore the Council should he so desire, but he still has the vote if he ever wants it for some reason.
Why wouldn't they?
Again, why wouldn't the various clan privileges continue to apply?
If I'm understanding correctly, your position is:
1. The Uzumaki exist on paper but they receive no actual benefits from existing
2. Therefore, Naruto should not care about dissolving the Uzumaki in favor of joining the Gōketsu.
I didn't go back and reread the conversation, so maybe I missed something you said. Is the above a fair statement?
If so...you're not completely wrong about point #1, since Naruto doesn't particular need any of the benefits, but he does still receive them if and when they become relevant. As to point #2, Hazō doesn't know how much Naruto would care. (And, to be honest, I haven't thought about it much and the QMs haven't discussed it in detail.)
Hopefully this answered your questions without seeming disparaging or insulting. As a request, in future could you please offer me the benefit of the doubt by assuming I'm not intentionally being an ass?
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Thanks for laying it out. For your broader post, I want to note that the Nara habit and CCnJ and so on generally succeed because they exist in a work of fiction where the author has absolute control over what people think and say, whereas asynchronous textual discussions in the Internet don't convey nuance very well and leave a lot of room for individuals to lose track of various specific facts simply due to the amount of information that exists about Leaf, the passage of time, other concerns existing, and so on.
For what you're addressing me specifically about, let me clarify- I think Naruto has been trained (edit: his training WAS interrupted but I suspect he still got some) like many clan heads to think in terms of multiple generations when it concerns his clan. Right now, Naruto is the sole Uzumaki, and I'm sure that he's aware his best friend Sasuke was also the sole Uchiha ninja until he managed to start his clan's recovery and produce more Uchiha ninja. I find it plausible that Naruto would likewise be interested in rebuilding the Uzumaki and ensuring that the clan existed for the sake of his own descendants, and that this is a factor worth considering when planning how to approach him with a suggestion that he instead become Lord Goketsu. Sasuke had more civilians remaining in his clan than Naruto currently does, if I understood that right, but I think that obstacle wouldn't be enough to stymie him.
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Overall, yes. That is fair, it was not insulting. It was informative, and I apologize about not giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Upon reflection, my response was indeed somewhat overblown. I am saying this next part not as an attack on anybody, but to explain why I felt the way I did.
I have noticed, in this forum (SV), many instances of people being pedantic and missing the point, either intentionally or not. I cannot recall any specific examples offhand, but I believe this thread in particular tends to do this often. There will be a general theme to a post, a specific question or argument made, and all of it will be ignored in favor of correcting some minor quibble that is actually irrelevant to the main topic, and afterwards the topic will be dropped despite never actually being addressed.
This infuriates me. You earlier response triggered this reaction. I apologize for the offense given, and thank you for your measured response to my response to your response. Responseresponseresponse okimdone.
I wrote up some more stuff about the Uzumaki>Gokatsu discussion, but I've decided to add that to my response of Danzapman in a different post, and let this one stand on its own.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
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Yes the Uzumaki get benefits. I feel that as Hokage, none of those benefits are particularly useful to him, compared to when he was clan head. You are right that I am making certain assumptions about the usefulness of the 'Uzumaki clan' as an entity now that Naruto is Hokage. I don't particularly feel the desire to get into the details of clan taxes and how that might interact with being Hokage. Given its a fictional setting and you have near ultimate power over the details, I will accept as true whatever you say about this topic.
Even if the Uzumaki clan still receive various benefits, it has been shown that Naruto in the past was willing, even eager to give up the clan name and join Goketsu. All the considerations about the usefulness of the Uzumaki clan were as true then as they are now, but he was willing to give that up anyways.
In addition, I feel the need to point out that Naruto would still receive benefits as Goketsu clan head. The math would change, certainly, but its not as if he would be going clanless.
Thank you for your input.
As this is a clarification of an earlier point, I fully appreciate you taking the time to better explain this position to me.
As an argument on its own, I think I have already addressed this issue to an extent. I feel the need to again point out that Naruto has been willing to leave the Uzumaki name in the past. All of this would have been considered back then, and the math came down at least temporarily in favor of joining Goketsu.
The math was changed by politics, and I am now suggesting that the math has again been changed by politics. The future of the Uzumaki clan as a consideration has remained static, a constant. The shifting of the political landscape seems the more relevant consideration.
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- how about no
I would prefer to have two or more options to pursue simultaneously instead of going all-in on just one. Especially when we have not done any basic research on either rifts on runes to make assumptions about how skilled Hazou will reasonably be when he does actual work on either of those projects.
Could you rephrase "at the other end of the difficulty spectrum from what he's trying," please? What is Hazou currently trying or was trying? What is the "difficulty spectrum" and what are its ends as Hazou understands them?
Do none of Minato's nor Jiraiya's seals count as dimensional seals? How about Minato and Jiraiya seals that Hazou has already decrypted?
If Hazou has zero relevant experience with researching anything that could be considered rift-adjacent do we not need to be concerned with Itachi stealing all of our (Hazou's, Minato's, Jiraiya's, etc.) collected notes?
Ah, or perhaps the miscommunication issue is when I say "research" I mean Hazou reading about and theorizing what the new-to-him seal he is currently examining does and that is not what you mean by research? If that is the case, what do you and the other QM's define as seal research and that research's initial steps?
I hope you feel better soon and thank you for all of your answers so far. These next questions can wait if you need/want time to recuperate to answer them to your, and hopefully everyone else's, satisfaction.
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We did start research on rifts though. Sasori stole our prototypes. We were making fairly swift progress too. Purely reopening seems like a jonin- level task. Moving may be harder, closing probably easier according to in-character opinions.
There isn't that much room for Hazou to grow in Sealing, 51 -> 59 at best more than likely. A few more levels ain't nothin but it's not going to radically change what's possible for us to do IMO. Runes are different of course since there's a lot more leveling to be done.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
If I'm not getting it wrong then him wanting to keep the Uzumaki a voting Clan at this point, beyond sentimentality, is practically speaking just him wanting his unborn child, born to his not yet chosen wife, to personally have a vote in Leaf affairs after his own death or permanent incapacitation. Just on the expectation that he will be able to instill the right kinds of morals and judgement into this potentially existing heir.
Anyway, I haven't been following the resurging discussion about adopting Naruto. What's the gist of the proposal? Would it still entail abdicating as Clan Head and making Gokētsu Naruto the Clan Head instead?
If we do, we could be sure that our Clan is insulated by our going missing nin. Because from the outside it would seem like our own Clan pressured us out of our position and let the Hokage personally take over, making our deserting and betraying them seem a tad more understandable, or at the very least making them seem no less disloyal to Leaf due to their association with us.
Is this essentially what's being discussed, with me just inadvertently repeating well treaded territory?
Edit: Maybe I should just ask outright: What are the current proposals and arguments around Naruto becoming a Gokētsu? I.e. the whys and the hows.
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Yeah you've pretty much got it. I'm not sure if we'd call it well-treaded territory though, it got kinda sidetracked.
You nailed the whys. The Naruto becoming Goketsu proposal is in service to two simultaneous goals; adds more believability to Hazo going missing, and gives more protection to those left behind. The hows are a bit less defined, since there's still so much up in the air about how when or even if Hazo goes missing. Presumably, we bring it up to Naruto now, he either agrees or doesnt, and if he does they work on the story and Naruto handles all the legal details.
Edit: Note, if Naruto becoming Goketsu is in fact enough to deter Akatsuki interrogation of the family (big, very important if), it might be possible to Hazo to keep in contact with the family via the 7th path.
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Besides the benefits/reasoning you listed already it also means we can share the Armor jutsu with him without getting Kei in trouble with the pangs. These are uniquely useful for his SC spamming style of combat. If every clone has PEA or ghost scales up it becomes a lot harder to just wipe them out with an AOE attack, and the exorbitant cost of PEA isn't an issue for him.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Ok quick question, asking for a friend (that friend is Naruto) can you cast an armor jutsu before shadow clone, to make all your shadow clones spawn in with the armor? Even if it ended up costing the full chakra cost of clone+armor for each clone, that would still be OP just on time saved not having to cast.
This falls into an area of game mechanics I admit full ignorance of. Hazo already has all the tools so should have tested this at some point but I can't recall.