Voting is open for the next 1 day, 2 hours
Under what circumstance would Oro decide to kill hazou without being in front of him or collecting the body afterwards?
We get powerful or important enough that we threaten his ability to operate.
I think Oro is better than that medic by at least as much as that medic is better than noburi. I haven't thought of what that translates into in time yet, not what it would cost.
So, you have a take that you haven't considered in any real depth?
Under what basis do you consider me unable to model the world? I do not believe myself to be wrong more than the average hive mind denizen
At a minimum you had the take that Orochimaru wasn't absolutely evil which QMs clarified was absolutely wrong. Ditto 'Tsunade just forgot about money'. Your hypothesis that sealing failures didn't occur normally during the course of research and that small ones weren't the norm. Those just off the top of my head. I can look up more if you want. I think you actually admitted that your intuition was bad at some point. The average player is not that fantastically and decisively wrong that often.

With citations, which other players have you seen corrected by QMs in the same way you have been, and when have you made a prediction which was not common or wrote a winning plan which was proved to be correct or a good course of action?

This is not something immutably true about you but it's currently true about your beliefs.
 
The biggest thing on my mind right now wrt the Severes is that we're in a race, multiple really, and we don't know how much time we have so the only thing we can do is go as fast as we can, and the Severe is getting in the way. And both of these races have fate-of-the-world stakes attached (necromancy and Dragonwar).

I'm not certain I'd go all the way to sacrificing other Leaf-nin by asking Kon Ai to focus attention exclusively on Hazou, but... there's cause to think about it. If we're too slow in the Dragonwar, we might just lose everyone. If we're too slow with necromancy, the Akatsuki secure the rift and we're locked out, not only denying us Jiraiya and Akane but forcing us to watch as Pein returns to create a new world order. I'm not Shikamaru to tally up all the unknowns and put hard numbers on those figures, but I'd be remiss to treat them as morally negligible.

Right now, especially, was prime time to move ahead at full speed. We were working on the final Rift Seals necessary to gather vital data and refine our necromancy plans, and lithosealing is just coming into view as we speak. We had this plan to push through the early exploration of lithosealing within about a month before deciding whether to share with Orochimaru or not, and now it's all the harder to accomplish that. (Especially the deal itself, if we wind up having to conduct it while grievously wounded. I think it stands to reason that whatever we hoped to get out of him in exchange, we'll get less if we have to work around Hazou's hefty stat penalties)

Some of this is just personal "that's a bummer" stuff, but some of it has existential weight, and it all bundles together into a big mass of "being injured here makes everything more difficult, including very important things that we care a lot about and assign lots of moral weight to". I'm currently unsure still, but there is most definitely a strong case for getting Hazou priority treatment.
IMO, we now need to symmetrically derail Akatsuki's progress. I mean, that had always been something nice to do, but now it may be an actual necessity.
 
IMO, we now need to symmetrically derail Akatsuki's progress. I mean, that had always been something nice to do, but now it may be an actual necessity.

Technically, if we get to be part of the Akatsuki, we could simply take over from the inside, Hidan is probably their best social spec, and he's already on our side. :V

Also, if Assassin!Asuma is true and we get to choose, he should probably tell what happened to Ino...it won't be a good conversation, but she deserves to know the truth
 
@faflec et al., did we ever hear which element tends to have the best melee-focused buffs?
By that I mean stuff that does some or all of the following things that would be incredibly useful for melee fighters:
  • Buff Athletics
  • Buff Alertness
  • Buff Taijutsu or Melee Weapons
  • Move quickly through zones to enter melee-range
I know Jiraiya mentioned that the Turtles use some kind of lightning-based superspeed buff and we traded the Pangolin's for another lighting-element buff that did something similar (though much less so in FtD). We've also seen another physical enhancement jutsu in the Lightning section of the Leaf Private Library, though admittedly that's much weaker.

Aside from that, Fire Element has Akane's Flame Aura (which boosts Athletics, not just Taijutsu) and to a lesser extent Basan's Glide and the Fireball Substitution jutsu. Those are apparently the higher end of fire element melee buffs, though, so we're going to have to turn to the other elements for stronger stuff.

Wind Element has some good movement jutsu, though I can't remember if they were the best or second best to Lightning in that regard.

Water Element has at least one good attack buff in Hokai's Mantle, and apparently Jin's family techniques enhance Taijutsu directly. Surging Seas works as a mobility, but that's really a good technique that has mobility options. Something specialized in mobility specifically would perform at a much higher level.

Earth… Earth has HLaM that you could use as a movement technique. Not particularly good at the task though.

Finally, there's that "speed enhancer" dog jutsu that Cantahapuyu adapted for Kakashi. It seemed pretty good, apparently letting him keep up with a dog pack despite being a "so slow" human. No idea what element that is, or if it's even elemental at all. They also have a scent enhancing jutsu that aides in detecting enemies before they notice you, but we're well coveted on that front with Chakdar. Still, might boost Alertness.

Am I missing anything? Right now it looks like the best melee-buffs are all Lightning and, to a lesser extent, Wind. And like the best stuff all comes from the Seventh Path, though that may be a sample bias from our main source of techniques on the human path being specialized in an element that isn't well suited for this kind of buffs.
 
From my observations of our currently-known jutsu...

- Athletics: Lightning
- Alertness: Unknown, but I suspect Lightning (or Wind)
- Melee Weapons/Taijutsu: Fire Element
- Movement between Zones: Wind
A few things: one of our lightning jutsu directly boosts alertness, so that's confirmed; Jin has a water jutsu that enhances Taijutsu and HM counts as well; we know from AugJev that lightning jutsu are able to boost MW/T, so I'm adding the element there; also I vaguely Lightning mobility jutsu were brought up once (@faflec help!) so I'm adding that as a "maybe."

  • Athletics: Lightning, likely also non-elemental Dog
  • Alertness: Lightning, maybe Wind
  • Melee Weapons/Taijutsu: Fire, Water, Lightning (one of our jutsu did this in AugJev)
  • Movement between Zones: Wind, maybe Lightning
 
A few things: one of our lightning jutsu directly boosts alertness, so that's confirmed; Jin has a water jutsu that enhances Taijutsu and HM counts as well; we know from AugJev that lightning jutsu are able to boost MW/T, so I'm adding the element there; also I vaguely Lightning mobility jutsu were brought up once (@faflec help!) so I'm adding that as a "maybe."

  • Athletics: Lightning, likely also non-elemental Dog
  • Alertness: Lightning, maybe Wind
  • Melee Weapons/Taijutsu: Fire, Water, Lightning (one of our jutsu did this in AugJev)
  • Movement between Zones: Wind, maybe Lightning
Any Element can be made to suit any need, but there are Elements that specialize in filling certain needs. See: Asuma telling Akane to learn more Elements when he taught her Basan's Glide

Part of our problem is that Leaf, naturally, has an overabundance of certain Elements (Fire), and a shortage of others (Water).

So we have a small sample size to choose from, with regard to certain, other Elements.
 
Don't we have some Earth armour jutsu? PEA?

I figure Earth mostly works on debuffs. Prior to Skywalkers you needed a firm footing to throw a punch or cut handsigns.

TFW we nerfed our own element.
 
FWIW, my thoughts on the general specialties of the various jutsu Elements. Again, any Element can be used for any purpose, it's just the overall trend of the thing (ex: Ghost Scales v PEA, Basan's Glide v Vac Step).

Fire: Big, fuckoff damage, Tai/MW buffs
Lightning: Piercing armor, Ath/Alt buffs
Earth: Blocks (armor technically falls in this, I think), Debuffs
Water: AoE, Crowd Control
Wind: Movement
 
Sell PS to Oro in exchange for Sasori's head and his Sealing notes?
I wouldn't take this trade if I were Oro, doesn't seem fair. Fight two+ S-rankers and get put on the hit list of a few more, in exchange for something you might be able to figure out on your own in a few months? (And I know we disagree on how easy it'd be for Oro, but I think Oro would be more inclined towards the more positive assessment of his own abilities. Especially since he doesn't know Hazou has Sealing: Yes, so it'd look to him like something achievable by some merely-competent sealmaster.)

And if we put our foot down and accept no better deal, he'd either try to Intimidation it out of Hazou, or spy on him, or go to Asuma (if he's alive, I mean) and complain that Hazou is being uncooperative on the Dragonwar and should be ordered to spill.

At least four alternate options, all cheaper than killing Sasori.

Edit: Honestly, it might be easier to figure out some justification for killing Sasori that Asuma will buy, and get him to order his essies to do that.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't take this trade if I were Oro, doesn't seem fair. Fight two+ S-rankers and get put on the hit list of a few more, in exchange for something you might be able to figure out on your own in a few months? (And I know we disagree on how easy it'd be for Oro, but I think Oro would be more inclined towards the more positive assessment of his own abilities. Especially since he doesn't know Hazou has Sealing: Yes, so it'd look to him like something achievable by some merely-competent sealmaster.)

And if we put our foot down and accept no better deal, he'd either try to Intimidation it out of Hazou, or spy on him, or go to Asuma (if he's alive, I mean) and complain that Hazou is being uncooperative on the Dragonwar and should be ordered to spill.

At least four alternate options, all cheaper than killing Sasori.

Edit: Honestly, it might be easier to figure out some justification for killing Sasori that Asuma will buy, and get him to order his essies to do that.
I mean, I'm pretty unconvinced that it's worth it either. But I think it's probably worth running past Mari just in case. It would solve a lot of our problems right now. I agree with the general thrust of your argument.

As for Asuma, I don't think he'll be willing to go to war with Akatsuki over it. But it kinda depends on how this next update goes.
 
If Asuma dies we might be able to manipulate Naruto into going to war with them. Since they would have killed 3 Hokages
The only problem is that I'm not sure we'll win this one. They have 7 essies. Hidan, Kakuzu, Kisame, Deidara, Sasori, Itachi, and Konan. If they can pull reinforcements in from other villages, we're fucking dead.

EDIT: Includes Itachi now, derp

Our best bet is probably a Summon Boss Rush attacking Rain itself, attempting to destroy their village, and probably kill Konan and Sasori. Then hunting down the other essies with Naruto and Oro paired up with Wakahisa support. Even then, Naruto cannot fight Itachi.
 
Last edited:
If Orochimaru is going to discover 3D sealing anyway, let's sell it to him for an apprenticeship.

  • He's going to get it anyway, let's profit while we can.
  • We can get free XP for supporting stats, and spend our "standard" XP on Fundamentals
  • Kabuto is alive, so presumably there's some measure of safety
  • We can build a rapport with Orochumaru the Hardened Heart, and try to affect positive change within him for prosocial reasons
  • Or, alternatively, we can keep an eye out for weakness, vulnerabilities, or just general hints about his abilities for when/if we decide to kill him.
I'll be honest: the main draw, for me, is the free XP.
 
Um, how am I shifting goalposts when that was literally the entire point of my original post and indeed was written in said post... and yes, sure, we will need weeks/months to recover with Noburi assisting us. We'd need... slightly shorter weeks/months with the premier medic of Leaf assisting us too. Weeks/Months that said medic could have been doing vital surgeries over. How many lives is that, exactly, to shave off a couple weeks of recovery time? Sounds callous to me.
Here's a more accurate way of writing what you claim to have meant:

Better off maybe but Kon AI is probably the best Leaf Medic after Tsunade who isn't in the village. Lets not forget that, yes, Hazo is just mildly extremely inconvenienced by the Severe and but its a matter of when it heals, not if. Meanwhile at any time there might be ninja in mortal peril waiting for medical help out there at Leaf General, and I don't think it'd be right to take up his her valuable time when Noburi is more than sufficient to help us recover quickly, because that's potentially a price paid in lives.
 
So, you have a take that you haven't considered in any real depth?
Yes. A take does not need to have significant consideration to be worth sharing, especially in the initial brainstorming phase.
At a minimum you had the take that Orochimaru wasn't absolutely evil which QMs clarified was absolutely wrong. Ditto 'Tsunade just forgot about money'. Your hypothesis that sealing failures didn't occur normally during the course of research and that small ones weren't the norm. Those just off the top of my head. I can look up more if you want. I think you actually admitted that your intuition was bad at some point. The average player is not that fantastically and decisively wrong that often.

With citations, which other players have you seen corrected by QMs in the same way you have been, and when have you made a prediction which was not common or wrote a winning plan which was proved to be correct or a good course of action?
More precisely I thought it was too early to definitely say Oro was evil.
As I've already corrected you before, my hypothesis of sealing failures was conditioned on the rules being true.
Looking up more would be helpful. But depending on the specifics of the contents, it might not be very helpful. If it takes you a long time to find them, I wouldn't feel comfortable requesting you to do so. But if you do it, it would still be helpful to some degree.
I've said that I've been wrong many times, which is to be expected even for people with good intuition over when looking at a long span of time.
I've said that mistaken priors caused me to be wrong about Oro and other things, but that I didn't know much wrong they were (whether a little or a lot). Even someone with good intuition will have flaws, whether small errors in priors or something else.
You have stated one cluster of things I've been completely wrong about (Oro). I disagree that the average player is wrong less often than that.
What matters is not whether they've been corrected by QMs, but that they've been shown to be definitively wrong. After a brief review I can't remember situations where people's inferences were shown to be definitively wrong. Nor can I remember after a brief review making a public confident uncommon inference later shown to be definitely right (but such a situation has so many constraints that for most person that will rarely happen, and then remembering that is another constraint). If we lower the constraints on being later shown to be definitely right/wrong:
I was against the timeskip during the hokage elections unlike most people, and I think I publicly stated so. After the timeskip Hyuuga was elected.
For the sealing failure where cubes rained down. I vaguely think that if we had full prep days we wouldn't have failed, and that I had mentioned at some point before that we needed stronger sealing opsec.
If you request, I can try to find citations for these two examples.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

PONWOG is fine for this.

There's a discussion about whether we can expect to get The Good Shit from Oro (immortality, personal jutsu, etc.) without being his apprentice (setting aside the likelihood of getting the good shit or being his apprentice at all). It is my opinion that no, if we are not his apprentice, we will not be getting that, because the culture of the EN is such that the only time such techniques are passed down is to apprentices, or to other members of one's clan.

Is my estimation of EN culture correct here?
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

PONWOG is fine for this.

There's a discussion about whether we can expect to get The Good Shit from Oro (immortality, personal jutsu, etc.) without being his apprentice (setting aside the likelihood of getting the good shit or being his apprentice at all). It is my opinion that no, if we are not his apprentice, we will not be getting that, because the culture of the EN is such that the only time such techniques are passed down is to apprentices, or to other members of one's clan.

Is my estimation of EN culture correct here?
You forgot the extremely important context of this being in exchange for teaching him Primordial Sealing.
 
Voting is open for the next 1 day, 2 hours
Back
Top