The definitions of the combination stunts aren't given, and they aren't listed in the stunt doc. Most of them are able to be guessed if you're familiar with their suite, but it still seems like another barrier to engagement for newer players. Maybe having them at the bottom of the stunts document or something?
Good point. They've been added to the Stunts document.
genuinely unrelatedly, does anyone have a snapshot of the PC's charsheets from vaguely around the time of the chunin exams?
Google Docs does have a version history which you can access from the File menu. I'm not sure if it is usable by people who lack write access.

They could lower it even more. And I think Leaf would be fine with daimyo pocketing most of the taxes instead of farmers. The presentation mari gave leaf was about how a daimyo with more money could invest in infrastructure. Not about how farmers with more money would invest in the land.
yes. it was about a hill daimyo having the money for a water mill
You're not wrong, but 'hill daimyo' should be interpreted to mean something like "head of a medium-sized settlement, lives onsite and does general management and probably actual work with his hands as well as coordinating with higher-up governmental infrastructure." This is as opposed to the Fire Daimyo who sits around in court all day. In European terms this would be something like a landed knight (hill daimyo) as opposed to a duke (Fire Daimyo; the Hokage is the king in this analogy)
 
In European terms this would be something like a landed knight (hill daimyo) as opposed to a duke (Fire Daimyo; the Hokage is the king in this analogy)
Europeans: haha, what is this "mile" or "inch" you speak of? Freedumb units amirite
Also Europeans: so how many viscounts to the archduke if we want to build a water mill
(Please no one hate me I'm European meself just having a little laugh)
 
At some point we will need S-rank tricks, and even a single Jounin tier 3D Seal can easily be an S-rank trick. It also wouldn't take 4 months of full time work like you mentioned, because we can reroll significantly below average rolls, so its closer to three months - maybe even less if some veterancy carries over from a paper version of a similar seal. Which means we would have several Jounin Tier 3D Seals by the time we became a proper SJ-level combatant in terms of our fundamentals
1) We are literally working on a S-Rank trick right now, RRBs.

2) Runes are not portable.
Must be of substantial size. Even the smallest, weakest seals cannot be much smaller than a dinner plate – roughly 8" across and 1" thick. More powerful seals generally need to be larger.
Jounin level Runes are (most likely) going to be too large to carry. Anything more than ~25kg is unworkable. That's only 10 L of granite. 0.01 m^3. This is based on the GS being TN ~100 and large enough be a hill, and TN ~5 Runes being the size of a dinner plate.

So we can't use our new seal in the field.

3) Hazou can't spend on rerolls and invokes freely. He's FP limited right now. Assuming we only research one seal at a time (which, to be clear is a waste) and we devote all our FP to it, we only get 1 per update. So we would need to spend XP on buying FP to keep up with rerolls.

Good Seals take time to make, that's the reality of things. The only thing we can feasibly research in mere weeks is Chuunin 3D Seals, and those are more of a gimmick than something useful when we are Orochimaru at regular sealing. Levelling our skills high enough to make Jounin Tier 3D seals / S-rank paper seals researchable quickly is unrealistic, but what is realistic is having such a seal finished within half a year of now, if we spend the 1k XP on levelling Sealing/PS - that is to say, quickly enough to possibly be of use in operation afterlife. Then two more in the next half year after that as we work on our fundamentals, and then we are a SJ baseline combatant loaded with seals and multiple S-rank tricks

Your whole plan ignores that Hazou can't research jounin runes and do necromancy at the same time. If we do that, we delay necromancy while pouring FP into this mythical jounin-level rune.

I do not think you are considering the implications of a eff 68 vs an eff 59. They ain't that different.

On the other hand spending the ~3 months of XP on fundamentals doesn't make us stop being a chuunin at combat, and when we confront the Akatsuki with that, they will die... of laughter. Its no alternative at all. First we have to build enough power to threaten essies, then we can work on fundamentals from there, and spending 1k XP to be able to research seals that are universally useful and deadly against most essies, without prep, rather than say a Skyslicer that only really works under specific circumstances, is a really small price to pay. Plus a Jounin tier 3D Barrier Seal would be amazing to fortify our home estate with, help Mari survive an essie encounter, or guard the whole of Leaf for that matter, like lets be honest here, we could awe Asuma by presenting that to him within half a year instead of the paper version that's garbage in comparison
You're modeling Hazou as fighting Akatsuki? Fine, one jounin rune instead of a high-chunin rune isn't going to be the difference there either. But this is a dumb situation to consider anyway. If we're fighting Akatsuki in the relevent time frame, we're fucked anyway.

We will have plenty of fights exploring the Rift, and 50Alt/49Ath/49Tai absolutely will matter there. Hazou can take on many fresh jounin at that statline.

Remember, as I already pointed out, to continue growing Hazou has to fight. He has to do it every 1000 XP. These will not be Akatsuki level fights.

There are relatively low cost ways to make him much better at combat. If his build is efficient, he will be at less risk during his unstagnation fights.
 
This is based on the GS being TN ~100
I don't think we know this.
I would *very much* like to spend a prep day assessing the difficulty of the great seal

Trying to decide on our long-term PS plans now seems a bit silly. We'll rush PS to 25ish and explore the possibilities.
We are be gaining a lot of info really fast, and don't need to make a decision yet. By the time we need to decide, we'll know a lot more.
 
I don't think we know this.
I would *very much* like to spend a prep day assessing the difficulty of the great seal

Trying to decide on our long-term PS plans now seems a bit silly. We'll rush PS to 25ish and explore the possibilities.
We are be gaining a lot of info really fast, and don't need to make a decision yet. By the time we need to decide, we'll know a lot more.
Do you think the difficulty will be something other than "Jiraiya"? I'm fine with doing this, but I am preregistering my expectations.

EDIT: Should be a "Hazou" level difficulty cuz Jiraiya knew nothing about lithosealing.

Or "Sage" I guess
 
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1) We are literally working on a S-Rank trick right now, RRBs.
RRBs are not an S-rank trick, though? An S-rank trick is like *the* shiny of an Essie. Even SC is not an S-rank trick, only made a "maybe" S-rank trick via exploiting FOOM, and its of growth type, and even then you still have to take care of stagnancy so its very helpful but not quite there. RRBs are nowhere near as good as FOOM, and I expect that a Jounin-tier Rune would be quite a bit above them in terms of potency based on the description provided for Paper vs 3D sealing and how much more potent its effects are (explosives example).

2) Runes are not portable. Jounin level Runes are (most likely) going to be too large to carry. Anything more than ~25kg is unworkable. That's only 10 L of granite. 0.01 m^3. This is based on the GS being TN ~100 and large enough be a hill, and TN ~5 Runes being the size of a dinner plate. So we can't use our new seal in the field.
I don't think we have reason to believe that there is a direct correlation between the size of a Rune and its DC, rather than bigger ones packing more chakra and thus more oomph, which the Great Seal needed? I might be wrong of course - could you provide a reference for such a claim?

On the smaller side of things, a typical dinner plate has a volume of around 123 cm^3. Given the typical density of granite (2.5g / cm^3), that is barely 0.3kg. Hardly anything unfeasible to carry. A massive Rune would get too unwieldy of course, but the smaller ones are hardly a burden. Besides, it depends what you are using them for. Say you wanted a Rune version of Monuments of the Thunder God, or a Rune version of the Fourfold Seal of Preservation? That doesn't need to portable to be extremely useful, and a Sealmaster can quickly prepare the ground they are fighting on (Skyslicers, Hyena fight). Home field advantage can be invaluable as well (like preparing the Rift exit/entrance).

3) Hazou can't spend on rerolls and invokes freely. He's FP limited right now. Assuming we only research one seal at a time (which, to be clear is a waste) and we devote all our FP to it, we only get 1 per update. So we would need to spend XP on buying FP to keep up with rerolls.
True. Large amounts of FP have an inherent cost to them, and would have to be purchased via XP. Still, if its just that, Jounin Runes are imo worth it. Also potentially important is the fact that we don't lose all that many levels in PS while researching with SC. They can't SSA, but since only a third of Sealing value carries over, we only lose a third of its value. So with eff. 68 PS with Prime prep, we get to research as an eff. 60 PS Runesmith with every single one of our clones! I hope you see why that might be good.

Your whole plan ignores that Hazou can't research jounin runes and do necromancy at the same time. If we do that, we delay necromancy while pouring FP into this mythical jounin-level rune. I do not think you are considering the implications of a eff 68 vs an eff 59. They ain't that different.
Except the 7 Sealing levels that are part of said plan (which is necessary to get eff. PS 68) make project Necromancy a lot easier and give us a huge safety net for sealing research with SCs. Yes, we might have to choose between Necromancy and Jounin Rune depending on the timetables involved - but if we have that little time, won't we be grateful for those 7 levels of Sealing that come from the 1k XP detour when the alternative is Akatsuki gets Pain? think I am considering the implications of Jounin Runes quite fine. They are likely to be game changers and being able to research them in 3-4 months vs not being able to research them at all, are very, very different situations to be in.

You're modeling Hazou as fighting Akatsuki? Fine, one jounin rune instead of a high-chunin rune isn't going to be the difference there either. But this is a dumb situation to consider anyway. If we're fighting Akatsuki in the relevent time frame, we're fucked anyway.
Not directly, but the only enemies that pose a threat to us as a Leaf Clan Head with all the resources at our disposal, are S-rankers, yes. Being able to ward our Estate / Leaf with a huge ass S-rank defensive Rune, or providing a defensive Rune for Mari to use while fighting Essies to let her utilize her genjutsu to the fullest, are things that help. A lot. But slightly higher personal, Chuunin-level melee prowess? That is of no use in relevant scenarios, if an essie attacks us that will not let us survive a round. We will only start getting value out of levelling fundamentals once we hit SJ tiers, and that's a year out, not three months, so I propose we do that after making sure our PS is sufficient to research Jounin Runs, and thats just three months away.

We will have plenty of fights exploring the Rift, and 50Alt/49Ath/49Tai absolutely will matter there. Hazou can take on many fresh jounin at that statline.
And Jounin tier runes / several points of paper Sealing more for improvements in the meantime won't? Hazou is not alone, he has people like Mari and Yuno and strong Summons. He sucks as a direct fighter and will continue to suck as one relative to his XP-peers unless we spend a full year rectifying that. Those are the people that should actually fight while Hazou prepares the ground with his Sealing tricks and gives them useful Seals and Runes to act as power multipliers. Also, I don't think we finish necromancy within three months or the whole discussion is kinda moot, because thats not a useful amount of stats and we will have no means to survive the slightest Akatsuki encounter on that timer. 6-9 months out is what I find more realistic, and at that timetable getting useful PS levels gets us a lot more than higher but still chuunin combat prowess.

Remember, as I already pointed out, to continue growing Hazou has to fight. He has to do it every 1000 XP. These will not be Akatsuki level fights.
To avoid stagnancy modifiers he has to fight yes. Guess what, the entire detour I am proposing is 1k XP. That's one, single barrier. And fighting through clever and prepared use of your Seals/Runes is still fighting, last I checked.

There are relatively low cost ways to make him much better at combat. If his build is efficient, he will be at less risk during his unstagnation fights.
Yes, and in my perception investing 1k XP (a small amount all things considered) to make him go from an "Elite Jounin" Sealmaster to a "Jiraiya" Sealmaster, and from "Genin" Runesmith to "Jounin" Runesmith is one such way, and its superior to just putting that 1k XP into fundamentals. After that he hits a bit of a wall on Sealing though, so I am really not opposed to working on fundamentals for a full year afterwards or however long SJ-tier in them takes him. I don't disagree on principle that he needs to improve them and fast, I just believe that eff. PS 68 (and +few points of Sealing) are worth a lot more than you give them credit for.

...Damn. Runesmith sounds so cool, why isn't that the official term?
 
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Reposting standalone in case someone misses it in the wall of text.

We will comparatively be a lot better at researching Runes with our SCs than we are at researching Seals with them. This is because Shadow Clones cannot use SSA, but only a third of our Sealing value carries over to PS, so we only lose out on a third of the SSA bonus via SC research.

We are a single 1150 XP detour away from not just eff PS 68 with Prime (with prep), but also eff. PS 60 (Jounin) with every single one of our Clones, which would let us pursue meaningful runic research with SCs, something that we just cannot do with paper sealing! It'd make us better at Runic Research with SCs than we are at Sealing Research with SCs!

We would be able to work on huge S-rank Seals with Prime (like Necromancy) while safely researching 3D Runes harder in rolls than the Barrier Seal that caused our current plotline failure, with every single one of our SCs. Maybe its just me, but that sounds like a great 1k XP detour.
 
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This is because Shadow Clones cannot use SSA
What

They have uh, been doing that. I think some QMs disagree that this should be allowed but AFAIK it is. We have been doing two SSA projects per cycle since reaching resolve 60.

1) We are literally working on a S-Rank trick right now, RRBs.
I'm mostly in agreement with you but gotta side with them on this one, a reusable +10 ain't S-Rank when average joe-nin have jutsu that give them +20 or better. It's a great seal don't get me wrong, but an S-Rank trick should give you a chance against essies, like summoning a Boss or being immune to physical attacks or bypassing all mental defenses, not just an AB increase.
 
The solution to the rune portability problem is, obviously, learning technique hacking to the point where we can design custom jutsu that will create and infuse a specific rune. Should be able to tackle the simpler runes with TH 120 or so.
 
iirc, the tentative draft of RRBs gives a +10 bonus that decreases by one every time it's activated. And no, not S rank.
+10, actually. But I disagree that's S-rank.

A Jiraiya level seal is equivalent to a jounin level rune. So I maintain that it's equivalent to what I was responding to. But I agree, it was poor phrasing and I shouldn't have repeated it.

You guys are right, it's not an essie trick on it's own. Combining a bunch of Jiraiya level seals is the S-Rank trick.
The same would be true for Runes.

What

They have uh, been doing that. I think some QMs disagree that this should be allowed but AFAIK it is. We have been doing two SSA projects per cycle since reaching resolve 60
I should know better than to respond by now, lol.
 
Also Europeans: so how many viscounts to the archduke if we want to build a water mill
If my experience with CK3 is anything to go by, somewhere in the neighborhood of 30-50 feral viscounts per archduke.

The solution to the rune portability problem is, obviously, learning technique hacking to the point where we can design custom jutsu that will create and infuse a specific rune. Should be able to tackle the simpler runes with TH 120 or so.
Stop giving them more skills to level! The poor dears are already drowning in XP debt.
 
We will comparatively be a lot better at researching Runes with our SCs than we are at researching Seals with them. This is because Shadow Clones cannot use SSA, but only a third of our Sealing value carries over to PS, so we only lose out on a third of the SSA bonus via SC research
I just want to point out that your whole post is completely wrong, because this, the fundamental core of your argument, is wrong.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
 
They have uh, been doing that. I think some QMs disagree that this should be allowed but AFAIK it is. We have been doing two SSA projects per cycle since reaching resolve 60.
Huh. Right. I guess we still decided not to use SSA for the Fourfold Seal and now we have the messy sealing failure due to eating a -24 penalty from not using it. Rune SCs wouldn't have the dilemma because they'd only take -8 from not using SSA so they could still research very very quickly compared to paper Sealing SCs and with far fewer risks.
 
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I just want to point out that your whole post is completely wrong, because this, the fundamental core of your argument, is wrong.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
See above, its not completely wrong, SCs are still a lot better PS researchers than regular Sealing researchers. And its nowhere close to a "fundamental core of my argument". You are using one erroroneous statement to try and invalidate my entire argument, which does not rest on it to that significant a degree. When I say something, I usually say a lot of things and some of them are sometimes wrong because I'm not on discord so I can't just bounce an idea and get it pointed out quickly, while forums are for longform discussion so it becomes easy to spot "glaring flaws" - but dimissing the entire point because of that is just lol. I provided a lot of valid reasoning for my stance, meanwhile your entire point is basically "mid chuunin combat stats three months out are more meaningful than Jounin Runes / +7 Sealing", when the only real dangers we are likely to face are from essies, and I just want to point out that kind of reasoning is completely invalid at its fundamental core.

Mid chuunin combat stats that we can get for 1k XP are not meaningful in such an encounter. They are basically useless, and if we want to want something useful out of them, we need to spend a full year on fundamentals for SJ base, and doing that before dumping a paltry 1k XP to make ourselves actual S-rank Sealmasters & Jounin Runesmiths doesn't make sense. We'd not only be making far less progress on Necromancy and potentially the Great Seal, but also be left with much, much worse Sealing Research for an entire year if we did that, all for what, some athletics that will never make a difference in a crucial fight if it happens, alertness that any combat jounin will still easily beat, and taij worse than our existing summons / other uplift members, or booms we can cause with our seals & runes with far less effort. Sealing takes three months of XP to make us into real essies with preparation and diminish their danger to us if we're smart about it. Fundamentals take a year of XP to maybe let us survive the first round of combat if they engage us, if we are lucky, but without the former we cannot escape or hurt them anyway.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
 
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Europeans: haha, what is this "mile" or "inch" you speak of? Freedumb units amirite
Also Europeans: so how many viscounts to the archduke if we want to build a water mill
(Please no one hate me I'm European meself just having a little laugh)
Worth noting the history of the metric system is highly tied to the French Revolution, so the contrast is expected.
 
Huh. Right. I guess we still decided not to use SSA for the Fourfold Seal and now we have the messy sealing failure due to eating a -24 penalty from not using it. Rune SCs wouldn't have the dilemma because they'd only take -8 from not using SSA so they could still research very very quickly compared to paper Sealing SCs and with far fewer risks.

CRUNBUM: "We have to option to apply bonus speed & safety to paper sealing. We can't apply this bonus to primordial sealing. Therefore, primordial sealing is safer and faster."

That's, um....
That sure is *a* perspective.
 
Worth noting the history of the metric system is highly tied to the French Revolution, so the contrast is expected.
There is even probably a way we can explain the short and long scales for large numbers through French-English rivalry.
The English: okay, and then we change the latinate prefix before -illion for every 10³, and-
The French: every 10⁶.
E: what
F: 6 is just better.
E: what for, do you say "thousand" on top and lose time or what?
F: nah we change the suffix to "-ard"
E: *banging head against the wall*

Edit: just checked and actually the short scale only even exists today because of the USA (well, future USA at first because still colonies when it began) using it so much, following the French of all people who declared the long scale was now obsolete in the 18th century (people used large numbers more often). Then France went back in the 20th century, along with some other converts of the time like Italy, and the USA didn't. For a while, some in the English-speaking world referred to the short scale as the American system and the long scale as the British system, until increased informal usage of the short scale in the UK, and regardless of formality when using English internationally, prompted the government to officially adopt it in 1971. This precipitated widespread usage everywhere in the English-speaking world. Until 1971 "billion" still meant "million million" in the UK. Wow.
 
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I think a case can certainly be made that we can overcome stagnancy through Primordial Sealing more easily, because FP for rerolls mean more there. But the rest of it, I dunno.
 
...Damn. Runesmith sounds so cool, why isn't that the official term?
Strictly speaking, the only things we voted on are what the discipline is called (lithosealing) and what the object is called (runes). The question of what Hazou calls himself in his capacity as someone who uses lithosealing to make runes has not been decided, and Hazoupilot may well choose to call himself a runesmith or a lithosealer as he pleases.

In other words, don't count it out just yet.
 
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