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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Once we reach PS 25 I am going to strongly advocate for switching our focus to raising our core survival stats of Alertness and Athletics.

Fundamentals first, and then continue investing into artisan capabilities by buying the few levels of Sealing that brings us to AB 9, getting a dozen levels of TH and exploring Minatosealing, and maxing out our Primordial Sealing skill.
 
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_The_Bomb said:
Once we reach PS 25 I am going to strongly advocate for switching our focus to raising our core survival stats of Alertness and Athletics.

Fundamentals first, and then continue investing into artisan capabilities by buying the few levels of Sealing that brings us to AB 9, getting a dozen levels of TH and exploring Minatosealing, and maxing out our Primordial Sealing skill.
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I think we want effective Jounin (60) in PS, if for no other reason than the fact that doing so will allow us to reliably research a new tier of Primordial Seals if we put in the prep, and it won't cost that much more. Imagine a 3D version of the barrier seal and similar - these help us a lot more than being a slightly better chuunin at direct combat and the shock factor and renown from being able to do them would go a long way. Its not that far away really, we would just need a 60 (base) in Sealing and 32 in Primordial Sealing. Maybe a point less in each for pyramid reasons. Once we have that much, it will be a lot harder to advance further, so working on fundamentals will be entirely fine. We have to do that sometime, but unnecessarily stopping at "mid-chuunin" in effective PS feels weird to me.
 
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Crunbum said:
I think we want effective Jounin (60) in PS, if for no other reason than the fact that doing so will allow us to reliably research a new tier of Primordial Seals if we put in the prep, and it won't cost that much more. Imagine a 3D version of the barrier seal and similar - these help us a lot more than being a slightly better chuunin at direct combat and the shock factor and renown from being able to do them would go a long way. Its not that far away really, we would just need a 60 (base) in Sealing and 32 in Primordial Sealing. Maybe a point less in each for pyramid reasons. Once we have that much, it will be a lot harder to advance further, so working on fundamentals will be entirely fine. We have to do that sometime, but unnecessarily stopping at "mid-chuunin" in effective PS feels weird to me.
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We know literally nothing about what feats correspond to what TNs in Primordial Sealing, except that stuff will probably end up orders of magnitude stronger.

There's no point speculating how much better effPS 60 would be than effPS 56 until we know more than we do now.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
The only thing every route has in common is that the best thing to do initially is push PS to 26, where it caps out at eff 51. But after that, we could have the total stall for years that you described or we could have a slower (about 30%-50% as fast as the end of our initial burst) but still consistent and immediate growth
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We're gonna stall out basically no matter what. IMO we should level combat and socials after we stall out initially.
Crunbum said:
I think we want effective Jounin (60) in PS, if for no other reason than the fact that will allow us to research a new tier of Primordial Seals if we put in the prep, and it won't cost that much more. Imagine a 3D version of the barrier seal and similar - that helps us a lot more than being a slightly better chuunin at direct combat, plus the shock factor and renown from being able to do things like that would go a long way. But once we have that much, it will be a lot harder to advance further, so working on fundamentals will be entirely fine. We have to do that sometime.
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The fastest way to do that is to level Sealing to 60 and pace PS with it. That's like ~800 XP for the Sealing Levels (53 -> 60), and ~350 XP for PS (26 -> 32). I just don't think 7 eff levels of PS are interesting compared to 1150 XP into combat and socials. Our max with prep would be 68, vs 59. Doesn't seem like a huge benefit to me.

Going to Sealing 56 makes more sense cuz we'll get to eff 80 and AB 9. It's only like ~450 XP in comparison.
 
Shrooms said:
Also like

We can prep and hit TN 60 anyways

Or, yknow, invoke... that mechanic we never use on sealing :V
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Actually not quite! The downside to using Sealing to boost our eff PS is that it doesn't boost our PS AB, so we're much more limited in both the number of prep days we can do and how much an invoke is worth! At base 26 eff 51, we'd have an AB of 3 and after three prep days we'd be rolling at 57. Toss in an invoke and we'd hit 60 flat, but then we'd be at the mercy of the Fudge Dice.

Rising AB is the only thing that really makes our PS rolls go up during the 26-51 stretch, and it does so by pittances but it does play a role. But if we stay at 26, I'd say the best we can reasonably hit is high chuunin.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Actually not quite! The downside to using Sealing to boost our eff PS is that it doesn't boost our PS AB, so we're much more limited in both the number of prep days we can do and how much an invoke is worth! At base 26 eff 51, we'd have an AB of 3 and after three prep days we'd be rolling at 57. Toss in an invoke and we'd hit 60 flat, but then we'd be at the mercy of the Fudge Dice.

Rising AB is the only thing that really makes our PS rolls go up during the 26-51 stretch, and it does so by pittances but it does play a role. But if we stay at 26, I'd say the best we can reasonably hit is high chuunin.
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We just gotta look at the Dog Summoning Scroll and get SSA 2.0

Summoning Scroll Celebrant
 
I have what I think is a potentially clever use of shadow clone. I do not believe this use will run afoul of our agreement not to poke at the edge cases of it.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

The idea being: If Snowflake is able to 'conceal' memories from Kei by making the context of them require high agency, we can use that as a way to have Snowflake operate in support of the condors without Kei Prime knowing, which means she wouldn't be lying to Pantsaa. And Snowflake, being able to read Kei's memories and feelings fine, would be able to judge for herself what is kosher for her to do, in respect to them. Is this something that you'd be interested in writing/wouldn't make shadow clone uncomfortable?
 
Shrooms said:
We can prep based on Effective Sealing, why would we not be able to prep based on Effective Primordial Sealing?
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Probably because Paper hates doing it the other way. But it has been ruled against.
eaglejarl said:
No.
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IMO it makes no sense to do them differently. But I get the impression that if they standardized it, we'd lose the affects-AB part of SSA rather than gaining the affects-AB on PS. So I'm not inclined to poke very hard.
 
if the village haru gave all his money to is doing much better than the other villages. we could bring that as evidence to leaf that much lower tax rates, and even farmers specifically getting the lowered rates instead of daimyo, is a good idea.
 
roobee said:
if the village haru gave all his money to is doing much better than the other villages. we could bring that as evidence to leaf that much lower tax rates, and even farmers specifically getting the lowered rates instead of daimyo, is a good idea.
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We've already gotten Leaf to lower tax rates and are actively implementing it large-scale?
 
Sir Stompy said:
We're gonna stall out basically no matter what. IMO we should level combat and socials after we stall out initially. The fastest way to do that is to level Sealing to 60 and pace PS with it. That's like ~800 XP for the Sealing Levels (53 -> 60), and ~350 XP for PS (26 -> 32). I just don't think 7 eff levels of PS are interesting compared to 1150 XP into combat and socials. Our max with prep would be 68, vs 59. Doesn't seem like a huge benefit to me.
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Prepared PS 68 with AB 4 for invokes lets us reliably do Jounin tier 3D Seals and potentially do some repairs on the great seal with enough effort.
Prepared PS 59 with AB 3 for invokes means we can only ever do Chuunin tier 3D Seals for fear of catastrophic sealing failure.

And then we also get effective regular Sealing 84 with AB 9 out of it. Which is enough to safely do lots of Jiraiya tier seals.

Going from a Genin 3D Sealmaster / Elite Jounin Sealmaster to a Jounin 3D Sealmaster / S-Rank Sealmaster for 1150 XP sounds better than uh, going from low chuunin fighter to mid-high chuunin fighter for the same amount of XP. After that the next tier is far, far away, so it makes sense to work on our fundamentals, but before? We typically get like 13 XP/day once we fix the stagnancy a bit, so that would take us 3 months maybe. After that we can afford to spend as long as a full year working on our fundamentals and becoming someone who can actually fight, at which point we literally become S-rank due to our skill in regular and 3D sealing from that initial 3 month investment and no longer being one shottable easily.
 
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Shrooms said:
I'm not really sure what you mean here. I don't see a reason not to go all out on succeeding at necromancy, since having Jiraiya back improves Dragon odds significantly more than getting ES 60 like a month sooner or whatever.

Leveling PS to 25ish (650 XP) maximizes our bonus from Sealing, since it can never increase PS to higher than our base sealing. After that, to see any more improvement we will need to go to PS 54+ which will take an additional 2320 XP, which is like 200 days of max FOOM no stagnancy no clones working on Sealing (AKA, overly optimistic), way past when I expect us to start making our early necromancy forays. Eventually, we can take a look at that after we've got Jiraiya back and can start raking in a Sannin sensei base rate (either from him or one of the other two bozos after he asks them to help out)
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Ah, I think that was my fundamental misunderstanding. I was mentally putting the dragon war confrontation before the necro adventure. Likely mostly because it was the first to come narratively, which isn't substantial. But I suppose also in part because, if we're in the rift and something happens on the seventh path, we can't do anything about it, which could doom the path.

I guess it really depends on "how hard will the Dragon Seal be" (expected to be difficult, but maybe it's less complex and just more dealing with BIG energies?), and "will the time we lose on our necro adventure be offset by the hopeful assistance we'll get in a time frame that matters?" And "how soon can we actually get the summon bosses ready to fight (since that timing will determine a lot)?" AND "How soon do we think Akatsuki might crack the rift?"

I know (or at least expect) the answers are about "Yes, hard", "no idea", "probably not super quick", and "unknown, sooner than we'd like". And that some of that we can't determine until it happens. But I'd be in favour of any fact finding to help us get better estimates on the rest. Prime amongst them, conclave updates and getting PS to level 26/experimenting with it.

(Though let's be honest. Given how much litho substrate we'll need to do a new great seal, unless we want to tear the old one apart in real time, there's a good chance we'll need ES 60 to get enough material as well.)
 
Crunbum said:
Prepared PS 68 with AB 4 for invokes lets us reliably do Jounin tier 3D Seals and potentially do some repairs on the great seal with enough effort.
Prepared PS 59 with AB 3 for invokes means we can only ever do Chuunin tier 3D Seals for fear of catastrophic sealing failure.

And then we also get effective regular Sealing 84 with AB 9 out of it. Which is enough to safely do lots of Jiraiya tier seals.

Going from a Genin 3D Sealmaster / Elite Jounin Sealmaster to a Jounin 3D Sealmaster / S-Rank Sealmaster for 1150 XP sounds better than uh, going from low chuunin fighter to mid-high chuunin fighter for the same amount of XP. After that the next tier is far, far away, so it makes sense to work on our fundamentals, but before? We typically get like 13 XP/day once we fix the stagnancy a bit, so that would take us 3 months maybe. After that we can afford to spend as long as a full year working on our fundamentals and becoming someone who can actually fight, at which point we literally become S-rank due to our skill in regular and 3D sealing from that initial 3 month investment and no longer being one shottable easily.
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Nah, what you're missing here is that juuuuust barely being able to work on a seal kinda sucks. It doesn't provide much value.

So with PS 60 and AB4 we can reliably hit 72 with a single invoke. A bog standard jounin seal at TN 60 Complexity 60 would take 15 cycles of neutral rolls, that 7 days ×15 = ~4 months of full time work and FP consumption for a single seal. We don't have the resources to devote to that, and work on necromancy. There's no way the GS is a mere TN 60 seal, and I am very skeptical of nebulous "repairs". For these reasons I am uninterested in the difference between rolling 59 vs 68. The type of seals we can reasonably do doesn't change very much.

Whereas combat stats are always value, with the unstagnation system and FOOM XP rates we need to keep combat in mind constantly. There are lots of low XP cost ways right now to drastically boost our combat skills.
 
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_The_Bomb said:
We've already gotten Leaf to lower tax rates and are actively implementing it large-scale?
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They could lower it even more. And I think Leaf would be fine with daimyo pocketing most of the taxes instead of farmers. The presentation mari gave leaf was about how a daimyo with more money could invest in infrastructure. Not about how farmers with more money would invest in the land.
 
yes. it was about a hill daimyo having the money for a water mill
eaglejarl said:
"My Lord, I am a hill daimyo from the border of River, as was my father and my father's father and his father before him. Every year, 95% of what we produce beyond basic subsistence is taken in tax. We have enough to eat, barely, but there is never enough extra to do anything with. For example, we make most of our money on nut flour, but we need to hull the nuts and grind them by hand and there aren't enough hands in the village to grind the entire crop of nuts before they go bad. With a proper waterwheel we could install an automatic mill which would allow us to enormously increase our output. That would mean more nut cake, nut candy, and nut flour for Leaf, but it would require us to have the money to buy what we need."
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Sir Stompy said:
Nah, what you're missing here is that juuuuust barely being able to work on a seal kinda sucks. It doesn't provide much value.

So with PS 60 and AB4 we can reliably hit 72 with a single invoke. A bog standard jounin seal at TN 60 Complexity 60 would take 15 cycles of neutral rolls, that 7 days ×15 = ~4 months of full time work and FP consumption for a single seal. We don't have the resources to devote to that, and work on necromancy. There's no way the GS is a mere TN 60 seal, and I am very skeptical of nebulous "repairs". For these reasons I am uninterested in the difference between rolling 59 vs 68. The type of seals we can reasonably do doesn't change very much.

Whereas combat stats are always value, with the unstagnation system and FOOM XP rates we need to keep combat in mind constantly. There are lots of low XP cost ways right now to drastically boost our combat skills.
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At some point we will need S-rank tricks, and even a single Jounin tier 3D Seal can easily be an S-rank trick. It also wouldn't take 4 months of full time work like you mentioned, because we can reroll significantly below average rolls, so its closer to three months - maybe even less if some veterancy carries over from a paper version of a similar seal. Which means we would have several Jounin Tier 3D Seals by the time we became a proper SJ-level combatant in terms of our fundamentals.

Good Seals take time to make, that's the reality of things. The only thing we can feasibly research in mere weeks is Chuunin 3D Seals, and those are more of a gimmick than something useful when we are Orochimaru at regular sealing. Levelling our skills high enough to make Jounin Tier 3D seals / S-rank paper seals researchable quickly is unrealistic, but what is realistic is having such a seal finished within half a year of now, if we spend the 1k XP on levelling Sealing/PS - that is to say, quickly enough to possibly be of use in operation afterlife. Then two more in the next half year after that as we work on our fundamentals, and then we are a SJ baseline combatant loaded with seals and multiple S-rank tricks.

On the other hand spending the ~3 months of XP on fundamentals doesn't make us stop being a chuunin at combat, and when we confront the Akatsuki with that, they will die... of laughter. Its no alternative at all. First we have to build enough power to threaten essies, then we can work on fundamentals from there, and spending 1k XP to be able to research seals that are universally useful and deadly against most essies, without prep, rather than say a Skyslicer that only really works under specific circumstances, is a really small price to pay. Plus a Jounin tier 3D Barrier Seal would be amazing to fortify our home estate with, help Mari survive an essie encounter, or guard the whole of Leaf for that matter, like lets be honest here, we could awe Asuma by presenting that to him within half a year instead of the paper version that's garbage in comparison.
 
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It's lower hanging fruit to just find creative adaptions of existing seals instead of creating new ones. That's how we got skywalkers and skytowers.
 
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