Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Oh, yeah. I must have mixed something up. I was for some reason thinking we're talking about the FGP instead of the part where Oro wanted to vivisect either a voting Clan Head or the wife and sister of a voting Clan Head. Which is quite frankly insane. Wasn't that what Shikamaru threatened to have his Clan leave over? And then Asuma got kinda pissy about that? As if the Hokage allowing your wife to be vivisected isn't a good reason to consider the social contract utterly broken.
That whole scenario and Asuma's direct admission of weakness could only happen because he thought of Hazō of even weaker in his position, especially politically speaking.
I need to reread those chapters. Did we tell Shikamaru about that particular part of the conversation? And what would KEI coordinator Naruto say, given that for some weird ass reason he was one of exactly two people Asuma wanted most to save face in front of? Can someone maybe remind me in which chapter the conversation with Asuma happens?
Edit: I mean the one in the aftermath, not the one where Asuma admits his weakness.
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Yup. Just to be clear, I was not arguing that it would be reasonable for Hazou to blame Ami, quite the contrary. Despite the Oro-related stress and "excuses" [ie, Mari throwing Kei under the bus, or Ami leaving Hazou alone with a hostile S-rank] he could use to fuel a rant, Hazou was not cruel to Mari or Ami. Hazou has showed impressive self-control.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing!
[x] Interlude: A Day in the Life of Ami
[x] Interlude: Ami Buys Groceries
- Location
- Pacific standard
Hazō's Automatic Zone Of Out Serendipity, or Hazō's.
Suggested difficulty: Hazō
Suggested downsides: 100+ element array, simultaneously activated. Astrological constraints. Willingness to say Hazō far too many times.
Hazō's Hazō's peel back the paint in a one Zone area, allowing a lie hating entity with an absurd sense of humor access to the zone. This lie hating entity causes increasingly improbable and dangerous things to happen to those who tell lies near it.
Mechanically, in order to make a deceit roll you must first pass a (very obvious) Chaos roll, starting at Great and working up the ladder. The first Chaos roll is nonlethal.
Chaos rolls are explicitly a way for QMs to have fun, as the lie hating entity is the person writing the update. Choose a fun/ridiculous challenge for the liar to try, and then try to keep a straight face afterwards even if they succeed.
"You no longer want to disect me, Orochimaru?"
"Correct"
*Orochimaru is swarmed by heat seeking pies*
Suggested difficulty: Hazō
Suggested downsides: 100+ element array, simultaneously activated. Astrological constraints. Willingness to say Hazō far too many times.
Hazō's Hazō's peel back the paint in a one Zone area, allowing a lie hating entity with an absurd sense of humor access to the zone. This lie hating entity causes increasingly improbable and dangerous things to happen to those who tell lies near it.
Mechanically, in order to make a deceit roll you must first pass a (very obvious) Chaos roll, starting at Great and working up the ladder. The first Chaos roll is nonlethal.
Chaos rolls are explicitly a way for QMs to have fun, as the lie hating entity is the person writing the update. Choose a fun/ridiculous challenge for the liar to try, and then try to keep a straight face afterwards even if they succeed.
"You no longer want to disect me, Orochimaru?"
"Correct"
*Orochimaru is swarmed by heat seeking pies*
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I don't recall this, do you have a quote for it? I recall Tsunade being pissed at Shika for it, but she doubted Oro's intentions. Rather than feeling it wasn't the correct response to Oro acting like that
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- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Hmm. In 477 it's only Tsunade who gets mad at Shikamaru. Am I misremembering a latter minor dressing down of Shikamaru by Asuma?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...And that was how Hazō died of heat-seeking pie poisoning, having forgotten that Orochimaru is cold-blooded.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Minatoerator
This seal functions as a macerator in usage, except the seal shoots an invisible chakra construct that violently explodes when it comes into contact with either something sturdier than ~.5" of plywood, or a chakra construct. The seal destabilizes any chakra construct it comes into contact with, causing explosions scaling with the energy in the destabilized construct. Chakra coils are considered energy dense chakra constructs for this purpose.
Suggested difficulty: Minato without veterancy, jonin with
Suggested mechanics:
Attacks made with this seal partially pierce physical armor and can go through small/thin obstacles before exploding, and explode energy armors upon contact. Ablative energy armors might counter this, but otherwise explodes energy armors on contact
When using this seal, the user can roll taijutsu/RW to 'parry' energy attacks by causing them to explode violently.
The chakra construct is invisible without exotic senses such as stinker eyes
Mechanically they should be better macerators, with an even larger bonus if being used against energy attacks
This seal functions as a macerator in usage, except the seal shoots an invisible chakra construct that violently explodes when it comes into contact with either something sturdier than ~.5" of plywood, or a chakra construct. The seal destabilizes any chakra construct it comes into contact with, causing explosions scaling with the energy in the destabilized construct. Chakra coils are considered energy dense chakra constructs for this purpose.
Suggested difficulty: Minato without veterancy, jonin with
Suggested mechanics:
Attacks made with this seal partially pierce physical armor and can go through small/thin obstacles before exploding, and explode energy armors upon contact. Ablative energy armors might counter this, but otherwise explodes energy armors on contact
When using this seal, the user can roll taijutsu/RW to 'parry' energy attacks by causing them to explode violently.
The chakra construct is invisible without exotic senses such as stinker eyes
Mechanically they should be better macerators, with an even larger bonus if being used against energy attacks
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IIRC, it was more like "I get why you thought this situation was serious enough for you to make that threat. I am letting your threat move me *this one time*, because I think you're in the right, but don't mistake that for thinking you can threaten me with this in general."
This is a least a tiny bit bluffing(Shikimaru can back his threat up, Asuma is not dedicated enough to game theory to not be at least a tiny bit moved by future threats)
This is at least partially true(Asuma would kill shika(or something else drastic) if shika decided to treat the hokage like a puppet on the threat of leaving)
---
Also, Orochimaru has
Not saying I love Asuma's choices, but I don't think I we should dismiss them as trivial missplays from Asuma's perspective, given the kind of man he's chosen to be.*
*reasonable, personable, responding to the specific circumstances.
He specifically isn't a dominating personality, nor is he consistently resolute about game theory. This has upsides as well as major downsides, but is a somewhat understandable choice (insomuch as it is a "choice" vs inherent nature).
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Rereading this heartwarming chapter I have a couple of questions related to Kei's Shadow Clones and how they affect her:
- Snowflake mentions purposefully hiding her memories of events by making these events be triggered by initiative that Kei is incapable of. Does this gambit expand beyond her thoughts to the point of obscuring lived observation?
- I assumed this goes both ways. Yet Snowflake remembers all the pertinent details of Kei's optimization of Hydralisk replanting. Is Snowflake's ability to remember Kei's memories better than the reverse or is this merely a case of Keiko doing optimization without using her Bloodline?
- Kei and Snowflake repeatedly exchange memories of finding each other aesthetically pleasing despite looking identical. How come this results in Snowflake having an apparently easier time to question her internal self-assessment due to this clear inconsistency than Kei does?
- Snowflake, who shares Kei's memories and a lot of her psyche, especially when it comes to the intimidation and threats of violence that are not contrary to initiative, still thought Kei "would find new and creative ways to exploit the fact that Snowflake was functionally immortal". This was said purely in Snowflake's mind and did not seem like a joke made by someone who knows that the true thoughts and motivations behind Kei's propensity to threats is actually benign. Does this mean that Kei is indeed physically (or otherwise) abusive towards Snowflake?
Elaborating on Asuma's Game Theory:
DEFINITIONS:
A Very Committed Position is something like: "We do things my way, or else. I am willing to kill you over this, no matter how small 'this' may be, or how inconvenient it would be to fight/kill you".
An Infinitely Committed Position is something like: "I'd rather die(and let my family die) than compromise on this"
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Asuma is in a world full of A and S rankers that like to take Very/Infinitely Committed Positions.
Ideally, everyone in this environment thinks carefully about what they demand, because nobody will ever back down, and anything can escalate infinitely.
Sadly, many S-rankers will thoughtlessly take Very Committed Positions, because they are used to everyone folding all of the time.
If Asuma consistently took an Infinitely Committed Position("death before compromise!") of "never get pushed around" He'd end up in a battle to the death with every Essie who offhandedly makes a threatening demand. He would die and leaf would suffer
Jiriaya could do this, because everyone meeting him is thinking "I better not piss him off: He's dangerous and unyielding". Other Essies will think carefully before making Very/Infinitely Committed threats to him. All A-Rankers and many S-Rankers who take Very Committed Positions will ultimately back down because they don't want to fight Jiraiya to the death.
Asuma can't afford to be Infinitely Committed, He has way to much to lose, and not enough power to protect it.
When someone threatens him for something small/medium, he wants change the framing(turn it into a trade, pass it off as a well-earned reward, pass the buck, reframe what they want, ect).
Failing that, he wants to fold, while communicating that he won't always fold in the future.
This isn't easy, but I think he does it well. Asuma is weak(ish), so he's made peace with being exploited sometimes, as long as you don't push it and try to exploit him to much.
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
- I'm uncertain as to how deliberate, or consciously the two can hide their qualia from each other, but Kei has said that Snowflake's memories of agency and initiative don't transfer well because of the Frozen Skein. And Snowflake has said that remembering memories from Kei's perspective is like running her brain through steel wire because the Frozen Skein threads itself through all of Kei's being.
- Kei's recall of Snowflake's memories is hit or miss (with Snowflake possibly having some way to put her thumb on the scale), whereas Snowflake seems to always be able to recall Kei's memories, just at the cost of mental pain.
- Snowflake and Kei both have an insecurity about their appearance, but they both receive memories of each other thinking about how pretty they are. They have said that it's a discombobulating experience. My personal theory is that they will lift each other's esteem of themselves up to a more realistic level.
- Kei, upon realizing the absolute control she had over Snowflake (due to her status as a Shadow Clone, if Kei orders Snowflake to do something, then Snowflake must do it), spent long hours over the course of several weeks trying to discover the fine line between "request" and "command." And Kei succeeded. Back when Orochimaru jumped Hazou during that one party (back when he still had Severes from the Great Seal), Hazou asked Kei to dispel Snowflake. Kei was very, very leery about violating Snowflake's agency like that, but ultimately chose to trust that Hazou would know this, and that he wouldn't ask for such a Big Thing unless it were important. Kei and Snowflake also hug, hold hands, and have hung over each other before, in a way that Kei only allows Ami to do. This speaks volumes, given Kei's severe revulsion to physical contact. Given all of this, I doubt Kei meant it seriously. I suspect it was an errant/intrusive thought, put there by the ninja deathworld they live in.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You know, this possibility becomes really amusing considering we just sent Hidan to go hunting.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Mm. It doesn't particularly seem to me that Oro was being strongly committed to that course of actions there. Indeed, we dealt with the problem just by having Tsunade glare at him a little, whereupon he dropped all demands. This wasn't Oro acting in accordance with the deepest foundations of his self-identity such that his course couldn't be corrected. Rather, he just saw free lunch and decided to grab it. The moment the lunch got a cost, he cringed and all of a sudden lost his appetite.
And I think this really is how essies mostly behave, when it comes down to it. The model you've outlined is what they want you to believe, that they're these forces of nature to whom only surrender is possible. But that only holds until there's something they want that you can withhold or threaten. If they can't just physically take whatever they want, if they need your cooperation, and you don't instantly fold to provide it, they become surprisingly talkative. See e. g. our Dragon-pieces negotiations with Oro, some parts of Ami's career, Conjura's apparently idiotic decisions around hostages, and why essies are able to "switch modes" and consider compromises at all when they know they're facing another essie.
(Which is all 100% reasonable behavior, by the way. Crafting a mythos of an unstoppable force around yourself so you can use cheap intimidation to make everyone bow to you, but still being able to recognize when this isn't working and switch to negotiations, is... I mean, yeah? Obviously you do that if you can, incredibly convenient.)
Edit: Actually, the negotiations over the Dragon pieces are particularly telling here. Oro sees a shiny, tells us he'll have it. Mari and Noburi go "sure sir, whatever you want sir". Hazou stands his ground instead... and lo and behold, Oro starts negotiating.
... I think I want to get all of the above across to Mari. I think she has some sort of unhealthy learned helplessness around S-rankers. See also her recent thoughts about how if Asuma is a threat to the Gouketsu, the best she can do is not provoke his ire.
Edit 2: This model is based on how real-life essies behave, by the way. See the Mafioso Nature.
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Should we... ask Noburi to take a vacation from the hospital to read Medknow/Mednin notes and continue working on ACE?
- Hospital's cooled down after the war
- Noburi would get free xp, which is great since he lacks FOOM
- could help raise Mednin to 49 and Medknow to 59 (imo, his 60-slot should be reserved for VD for possible bloodline unlocks)
- he wants to get good at medical stats and bloodline stats anyway
- we need higher mednin for Necromancy anyway
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@eaglejarl , @Velorien , @Paperclipped
So, Noburi's jutsu, Hozuki's Mantle, is a pretty heckin' good jutsu, especially once it's leveled to 30... ostensibly, it was tossed in the Goketsu Jutsu Pool, alongside Surging Seas.
Did Jin not want to learn Hozuki's Mantle for some reason? It's pretty strong, and applies to any melee skill, such as Taijutsu. It seems like something he'd want to learn?
Was Jin just distracted by Surging Seas in the moment, and will learn Hozuki's Mantle afterwards, or something?
So, Noburi's jutsu, Hozuki's Mantle, is a pretty heckin' good jutsu, especially once it's leveled to 30... ostensibly, it was tossed in the Goketsu Jutsu Pool, alongside Surging Seas.
Did Jin not want to learn Hozuki's Mantle for some reason? It's pretty strong, and applies to any melee skill, such as Taijutsu. It seems like something he'd want to learn?
Was Jin just distracted by Surging Seas in the moment, and will learn Hozuki's Mantle afterwards, or something?
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I mostly agree with this!
I was already working on a follow up post looking at how Essies actually work.
It is important to note that basically nobody, Essies included, take Infinitely Strong positions. And that even Essies fold some of the time when they aren't forced to.
But Orochimaru just needs to not fold sometimes to make standing your ground dangerous....
(more to be written later)
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Now that Noburi's finally reached Mednin 40, here's a possible build path.
Threnodist
occupying Haudenosaunee & Osage land she/her/hers
- Location
- Pittsburgh
[x] Another heartwarming interlude pls
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[x] Interlude: Hazou Turns 18 and Receives a Flood of Political Marriage Proposals. His Respect for Jiraiya (Who Remained Single Until He Met Mari) Grows Astronomically.
[x] Interlude: Hiruzen Learns About EM Nuke, Decides Hazou is going to learn THing, and scoops Hazou off the street like a stray kitten. Hazou is just thrilled to finally get an apprenticeship.
[x] Interlude: Hiruzen Learns About EM Nuke, Decides Hazou is going to learn THing, and scoops Hazou off the street like a stray kitten. Hazou is just thrilled to finally get an apprenticeship.
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- Location
- United States
[x] Interlude: Hiruzen Learns About EM Nuke, Decides Hazou is going to learn THing, and scoops Hazou off the street like a stray kitten. Hazou is just thrilled to finally get an apprenticeship.
[X] Interlude: Hiruzen and Jiraya Teach the Hyūga Elders the Pink Pony no Jutsu
[X] Interlude: Honoka's Adoption Ceremony
[X] Interlude: Hiruzen and Jiraya Teach the Hyūga Elders the Pink Pony no Jutsu
[X] Interlude: Honoka's Adoption Ceremony
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