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He can keep things secret when he needs to. For example, he hasn't let slip the entirety of our necromancy plan, or the key behind the Minato Seals.
I don't think he knows the entirety of our necromancy plan. Good point about minato seals, but now I'm worried he's gonna spill that secret.

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Are we actually concerned about Kagome leaking 3D sealing? Asuma knows we're working on it, Orochimaru knows we're working on it... people outside of Leaf may not know about it, but if anything we want at least Sasori to hear about it, so it's not exactly going to be a closely-guarded secret.
Knowing we are working on it is different from knowing we figured out how to make 3d seals via earthshaping. No comment on whether we want them to know that
 
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Are we actually concerned about Kagome leaking 3D sealing? Asuma knows we're working on it, Orochimaru knows we're working on it... people outside of Leaf may not know about it, but if anything we want at least Sasori to hear about it, so it's not exactly going to be a closely-guarded secret.
That we are working on 3D-sealing isn't a secret.
That we've figured out how to unlock it and what the prereqs for the Primordial sealing stunt are? We should absolutely keep secret.

Eventually, we'll need to explain that we can do it, but I want to have as much of a skill and research advantage on Orochimaru as possible before he makes us tell him. I don't want Sasori to find out ever, and I definitely don't want to make it easy for him by pointing him at the EarthShaping Jutsu.
 
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There's an entire step we have no idea what to do with for getting chakra, getting narutos tenketsu opened and whatnot. A PS just having more chakra instead would trivialize the issue
Fair. It sounds like a safer option. Should we still continue researching how to open Naruto's tenketsu, as a back-up plan? I don't think we can spare the time; our attention is too divided as it is.

but if anything we want at least Sasori to hear about it, so it's not exactly going to be a closely-guarded secret.
It reminds me, Akatsuki did have a 3D seal for their world-pacifying ritual right? what conclusion did the hivemind reach about Sasory already having 3D sealing?
 
Are we actually concerned about Kagome leaking 3D sealing? Asuma knows we're working on it, Orochimaru knows we're working on it... people outside of Leaf may not know about it, but if anything we want at least Sasori to hear about it, so it's not exactly going to be a closely-guarded secret.
Here's our OPSEC onion, as I understand it:
  • The existence of 3D Seals is no secret: we've actively advertised as much to every sealmaster in town.
  • The fact that we're working on 3D Seals is no surprise: it directly follows from the thing we've been advertising to every sealmaster in town.
  • The fact that we're using Earthshaping to try and make 3D Seals would be a reasonable guess: we used it to create the replica of the Great Seal, after all.
  • Confirmation that we think Earthshaping is the best way to achieve 3D Sealing is known to few, but Orochimaru already knows.
  • The fact that Earthshaping is indeed capable of producing 3D Seals is, currently, known only to Hazou.
Within Leaf, the only meaningful distinction to care about is that Orochimaru does not know the very last step, that we've achieved success. Nobody else within Leaf is in a position to even try their hand at 3D Sealing, unless Manjiro happens to have Earth Element and a particular optimism towards his jutsu leveling rate.

This also holds true for most of the rest of the Elemental Nations. They would have to have an Earth-element Jounin+ sealmaster with an ambition to pursue a radically different and untested sealing discipline instead of further honing their own. Which, you know, such people probably exist, but I doubt there's more than one or two per major village, if that.

Moreover, it's not clear just how quickly the jutsu from the public library are expected to be stolen by other nations, but given how easy it is to underestimate Earthshaping I imagine it probably hasn't been a priority espionage target. So that means even if we told the rest of the world that Earthshaping is the key to 3D Sealing, it may take some time before outside forces could even get started on reinventing it.

And the last nail in the coffin is the "You need a teacher or a sufficient 3D Seal reference material" requirement. Literally nobody else has a Great Seal seared into their brain and good luck getting Hazou or Orochimaru to teach them. They could grind Earthshaping all they want, they just aren't going to make it past the finish line anytime soon.

The only possible exception I can see to this is Sasori, who worked on the array that interfaces with the Seedling. Him, it's plausible that he might be able to reinvent 3D Sealing after successfully getting his hands on Earthshaping and training it up to 50+ and sourcing the right kind of magic rocks and putting in tons of work doing what Hazou and Orochimaru are currently doing. Which... I'm not all that against? We want Sasori to be distracted from necromancy, after all.

So, long story short, I think the only meaningful OPSEC vectors to care about are Orochimaru and Sasori. Right now Orochimaru is virtually guaranteed to figure out 3D Sealing and we can just hasten that along or not, and Sasori probably won't unlock it at all unless we go out of our way to share the knowledge with him. There are reasons to be okay with doing either of those things, and reasons to be against them. The rest of the world is fundamentally a bystander, unable to grasp this art even if they reached with all their might, and can be safely ignored.
 
Knowing we are working on it is different from knowing we figured out how to make 3d seals via earthshaping. No comment on whether we want them to know that
That we are working on 3D-sealing isn't a secret.
That we've figured out how to unlock it and what the prereqs for the Primordial sealing stunt are? We should absolutely keep secret.
Leaf's sealsmasters know we are using ES to model the GS, though I can't recall if Oro came to those meetings. One look at our 3D Seals or the GS would probably give up the game.
And that's without talking about an Ami-level bullshit-intelligence who'll probably connect the dots anyway. "Hazou managed 3D Sealing? Why, he must have used ES since it's great for 3D structure and he's spent so much time on it!" (edit: I guess, it's not really that smart an inference so pretty much anyone could make the connection)
 
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If you or anyone else could inform me of what is the general consensus about what those fires are I'd appreciate it
To my knowledge, the current priorities (unordered) of the hivemind are solving:
  • Jashin shenanigans: 1) denouncing Him publicly and damage-controling the fallouts 2) making sure Yuno doesn't start massacring civilians
  • Great Seal deterioration: the 7th Path is (perhaps all paths are) on a timer due to the dragon issue, and we need 3D sealing up to notch to solve this issue
  • Necromancy: our dead loved ones are also on a timer and could disappear for good anytime. We need an expedition into the rift, and we're nowhere close to being prepared
 
We need an expedition into the rift, and we're nowhere close to being prepared
We just need to finish four massive sealing projects of unknown difficulty and a novel medical procedure 😎
  • Rift opening seal
  • Jinchuriki tenketsu opening procedure
  • Path Diagnostic seals to get the dimensional signature of the Pure Lands.
  • Some sort of seal to stop the Pure Lands' chakra drain.
  • Some sort of seal to get a direction towards our fallen loved ones.
 
Could PS help solve the issue of opening the rift? I don't know if we have enough time to level PS before A-Day, but then if we want to take care of our little dragons first, we probably will have a decent PS by then.
Yes absolutely, part of Sealing applies to PS, if that's equal to say 1/3 of Hazou's eff Sealing that means he starts at 26 eff PS and if we buy 14 levels, which is expensive, but not ruinous. We'd have PS 40, which is pretty goddamn good. I expect we can do some batshit amazing things with PS 40.
Are we actually concerned about Kagome leaking 3D sealing? Asuma knows we're working on it, Orochimaru knows we're working on it... people outside of Leaf may not know about it, but if anything we want at least Sasori to hear about it, so it's not exactly going to be a closely-guarded secret.
I am somewhat concerned. But realistically Hazou is going to tell Kagome about this. He doesn't leak his own seals so I don't think he'd leak PS.

Also I don't want Sasori to hear about this. When there was no clear path to fixing the GS we were looking for input from other Sealmasters. IMO this was a mistake. We cracked it on our own, and every additional sealmaster we have working on PS is going to spread the existence further. Three in a secret, after all. I have every confidence that Hazou can fix the GS by himself.

Ideally we'd kill Sasori to stop him from beating us to the afterlife and rezzing Pain, and then steamrolling the rest of the EN. He's our last peer research sealmaster outside Leaf. Konan is also a sealmaster, but she seems preoccupied with ruling Rain, and I doubt her skills are on Sasori's level. He's much older than her.
 
So, long story short, I think the only meaningful OPSEC vectors to care about are Orochimaru and Sasori. Right now Orochimaru is virtually guaranteed to figure out 3D Sealing and we can just hasten that along or not, and Sasori probably won't unlock it at all unless we go out of our way to share the knowledge with him. There are reasons to be okay with doing either of those things, and reasons to be against them. The rest of the world is fundamentally a bystander, unable to grasp this art even if they reached with all their might, and can be safely ignored.
Thank you for the analysis. This is wonderfully thorough and detailed. I think we probably shouldn't worry about keeping our breakthrough secret (and may even want to take steps to make it known to relevant parties). Asuma has already asked us to assist Orochimaru until further notice, and Sasori spending time on 3D sealing and getting distracted from necromancy is in our interest.
 
I have every confidence that Hazou can fix the GS by himself.
Hazō can do it on his own with enough time, but we may need to trade off against work on necromancy. Personally I'm perfectly fine with permanently closing the rift and putting necromancy on hold for a few years, but that seems to be unpopular among the other players. I'm not sure what exactly people foresee happening, but trying to complete two S-rank groundbreaking sealing megaprojects, at the same time, with both of them under fairly urgent time limits, seems obviously doomed to failure. So if we aren't going to postpone necromancy I think we need to focus on that and leave most of the work on the Great Seal problem to Orochimaru and possibly Sasori. (Conveniently, Orochimaru is a world-class sealmaster who is already motivated to fix the problem, so I think that could work out.)

Ideally we'd kill Sasori to stop him from beating us to the afterlife and rezzing Pain, and then steamrolling the rest of the EN.
If you or anyone else has a plan to kill Sasori without getting found out by the other Akatsuki, I'm all ears.
 
Hazō can do it on his own with enough time, but we may need to trade off against work on necromancy. Personally I'm perfectly fine with permanently closing the rift and putting necromancy on hold for a few years, but that seems to be unpopular among the other players. I'm not sure what exactly people foresee happening, but trying to complete two S-rank groundbreaking sealing megaprojects, at the same time, with both of them under fairly urgent time limits, seems obviously doomed to failure. So if we aren't going to postpone necromancy I think we need to focus on that and leave most of the work on the Great Seal problem to Orochimaru and possibly Sasori. (Conveniently, Orochimaru is a world-class sealmaster who is already motivated to fix the problem, so I think that could work out.)
I think we have a path to necromancy in the next 6 months in game. Or even sooner. But with the degradation of the GS greatly slowed by HOWS and the lack of activity from the Dragons, I expect we have years before the situation on the Seventh Path comes to a head. Especially if the Bosses can kill the 5 remaining Dragons that have escaped. 3 years is enough time to organically develop our PS capacity to Sage-level heights, without sacrificing the rest of our build (I hope).

If you or anyone else has a plan to kill Sasori without getting found out by the other Akatsuki, I'm all ears.
Lure him in with PS rumors and fake a failed infusion. We'd still fail Deceit checks on it tho. We just can't compete with essies there.
 
I'm perfectly fine with permanently closing the rift and putting necromancy on hold for a few years
I'm not sure what exactly people foresee happening
Our main worry is Akame and Jiraya fading away. Jiraya was struggling after a couple of days/weeks, so I am very skeptical of Akame's chances of survival after a year or two. We don't know the speed at which they are losing their memory/existence. Perhaps we should do another ritual to see how Jiraya and Akame are doing.

If you or anyone else has a plan to kill Sasori without getting found out by the other Akatsuki, I'm all ears.
Note: we don't necessarily need to do it stealthily (which is probably beyond our ken right now); we just need to make sure the rest of Akatsuki won't kill us for it. If that's what we want, we could talk to Ami about it.
Though tbh I don't think it's a good idea. We can probably outdo Sasori anyway.
 
Thank you for the analysis. This is wonderfully thorough and detailed. I think we probably shouldn't worry about keeping our breakthrough secret (and may even want to take steps to make it known to relevant parties). Asuma has already asked us to assist Orochimaru until further notice, and Sasori spending time on 3D sealing and getting distracted from necromancy is in our interest.
Honestly I think there's a pretty strong case for keeping it away from Sasori:
  • Asuma might get very upset if he finds out that one of the Akatsuki has freely obtained an incredibly valuable shiny that was previously exclusive to Leaf.
  • While Hazou and Orochimaru are assuredly not going to teach anyone else 3D Sealing, it's not out of the question that Sasori might teach someone else. If we let Sasori in on the secret, further proliferation becomes plausible.
  • Sasori might not actually be properly distracted by it. Let's say we tell him about it, show him our notes, and teach him Earthshaping so he can start work on it himself. He's not going to be in a position to dive into the land of Primordial Sealing until he's spent months grinding Earthshaping up to sufficient levels. While it's plausibly a benefit to necromancy, we would be unable to rely on it distracting him in the particular timeframes we need him distracted.
Personally, I say we just don't make a big fuss about it. Try to minimize rumours, of course, but we don't have to keep their mere existence secret. Even if they know we can 3D Seal, they don't know how good 3D Seals are. Even if we use them in a big flashy manner and they learn how good 3D Seals are, we're already a max-priority target for kidnapping so it's not like things will get any worse. Plus, they won't have reason to see 3D Sealing as something they need, so much as just a strong shiny they might want (i.e. Akatsuki won't barge into Leaf and violate AMITY by stealing us out of our clan compound). The Elemental Nations is full of ninja with their own special tricks that nobody else has access to, however they might wish otherwise. Hazou being "the 3D Seal guy" doesn't make him anything too unusual unless we bring a large amount of attention to the true high-end capabilities of 3D Sealing.

Orochimaru is also inclined, by his reclusive nature, to not advertise the merits and capabilities of 3D Sealing. If the practice is kept just between the two of us, it's unlikely that we'll draw too much attention because of it. We shouldn't draw attention to it ourselves, but we should feel free to make use of it when it suits our strategic goals.

With respect to Orochimaru, the only real reason I can see for not sharing our findings with him is if we're worried he'll shake us down for intel on the crystal we used, and then run over to Honey and steal all the crystals for himself. If we find a better source of substrate (like perhaps from a Dog with Crystal Release or somesuch), or if we find a way to generate more of that crystal ourselves, or if we can't find a better source of substrate and hope that he'll be able to figure it out and then share with us, then in my mind there's zero reason to hold back.

After all, we did figure it out first. It would be a shame if we waited too long and Orochimaru figured it out on his own and took all the credit.

edit: I think the right balance for Orochimaru might be sending him a letter containing our findings. We'll detail the experiments we did, being perfectly honest in how we did everything, and we'd detail everything we know about the Honey cave crystal, except instead of saying that it's from that cave in Honey we'll say that it's from an "unfortunately finite" source and offer to share our remaining samples in case any more can be made.

Conducted through text, we aren't going to get his aura looming down on us as he shakes us down for information, he'll have little reason to question the idea that we have no further sources of the crystal, and he'll hone in on the idea that he might be able to produce more out of our remaining samples. Done right, we'll get all the benefits of "Orochimaru helps us try to get more crystal" with none of the risk of "Orochimaru raids the Honey cave and takes all the crystals for himself".
 
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PSA: After much discussion, the QMs have decided that the Earth Infusion stunt is on the menu.

Having the Great Seal stored in the Iron Nerve counts as sufficient reference material to learn 3D sealing. As soon as he has the XP, Hazō is clear to buy Earth Infusion and start learning how 3D sealing works.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

How much of the crystal fragment did we use experimenting in Chapter 606?

How many more 3-D seals does Hazou estimate he can make before he needs more crystal substrate?

Can he recycle the crystal he used in 606 by separating out the dopant?
WOG: You brought four chunks of crystal back with you.

ponwog99: You cannot reuse any seal blank, including the one that Hazō destroyed in chapter 606.

There was some discussion among the QMs about whether the other chunks of crystal are large enough to be used for blanks. I don't believe a decision was made; I'm mentioning this only so that people don't get an unpleasant surprise.

Among other procedures, we should assume that either at infusion or activation the seal could vastly increase in size to draw more power, the same way you can draw paper seals big for fidelity then shrink them down.
Note that paper seals do not change size after being drawn. You can draw them larger or smaller, but that's it.

What Akatsuki actually did is pretty unclear. Particularly since (IIRC) it was originally a sealing array, until those got grued.
I didn't think we had grued the existence of sealing arrays...am I having a cheese-brained moment and that was announced somewhere?
 
Wonderful news! This makes our timeline very nice: it won't be long before we can follow up on all this and start digging into the value of Primordial Sealing. If we're lucky, we might get good enough at it fast enough to open up new Necromancy opportunities!
WOG: You brought four chunks of crystal back with you.

ponwog99: You cannot reuse any seal blank, including the one that Hazō destroyed in chapter 606.

There was some discussion among the QMs about whether the other chunks of crystal are large enough to be used for blanks. I don't believe a decision was made; I'm mentioning this only so that people don't get an unpleasant surprise.
So, of the three remaining pieces, one of them must be set aside for experiments on reproducing it, and (if applicable) one must be set aside for our initial seal infusion. This leaves us with not much slack, but hopefully we can make do.
I didn't think we had grued the existence of sealing arrays...am I having a cheese-brained moment and that was announced somewhere?
I don't recall anything about sealing arrays getting grued, and in particular we would have noticed if 5SB stopped working. I recall asking about why we haven't seen arrays pop up as an option for our own seals, and got a response that so far none of the seals we've invented would particularly benefit from being structured as arrays. As far as I know, it's just a thing that by coincidence we haven't worked with much.

We know that Pein's Ritual at Nagi Island involved not only the Seedling but also an array of paper seals in front of it, presumably used to interface with the Seedling in some way. I can see that tripping people up, if they once heard that there was a sealing array at Nagi Island and then later heard that there was an immense 3D Seal called the Seedling there. Without knowing that both were present, it might seem like one got retconned into the other.
 
  • Meet with Mari, Kei, Snowflake, Noburi
    • Relay both our conversations with Yuno about Jashinism
    • Heads up, she'll probably try to convert you
    • We'd appreciate your advice and help with making sure she doesn't cause any incidents or massacres
    • Optimize public denouncement of Jashinism
      • (Perform this denouncement later)
    • Any other advice or recommendations to repair our reputation?
  • Meet with Noburi (Offscreen?)
    • We need a way to open Naruto's tenketsu, for necromancy
    • Do you think you can figure it out?
      • If so, begin research
Revised these sections.
 
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