Smashing the whole crystal to bits is only marginally better than not going at all. We'll get a moderately small and finite amount of crystal, which will diminish rapidly as we do even the most basic research into the discipline. Certainly not worth the trip all the way over to the Eastern Continent.

I mention sentience because I have a strong preference against destroying a sentient life without good reason, and it's just plausible enough that the cave crystal might qualify in its own alien way that I would prefer we study it and make sure about that before we do anything that could be considered immoral. I don't think it's the cause of much death nowadays, since it doesn't extend its reach beyond the cave and the villagers nearby know how to stay safe around it. But of course, the point is moot if there's no meaningful value in going there again in the first place.

I do think, though, that it's safer than you think to return. The cave was remarkably docile at first, not even complaining when we chipped away some of the crystal. It only became aggressive when we attempted to Earthshape it, which we can avoid trying again. This doesn't guarantee it won't turn hostile, but Shadow Clone makes this a lot safer. Instead of sending our Primes into the heart of the cave, we send in the clones and see how they do, keeping a getaway clear. If it looks like the cave really is benign unless we Earthshape it, we can start bringing the Primes back into it for research purposes.

And certainly, we can try out renewable crystal generation here at home. This is my preferred strategy, actually, given that we can try it without a weeks-long diversion from Necromancy. I think between Hazou's Earthshaping and Noburi's ability to control chakra we might just be able to figure out a replication strategy. Or maybe Orochimaru can, and we should pass a crystal sample off to him. Both of those options sound far more economical than anything involving the land of Honey right now.

Weren't the encounters dependent on the dice? Maybe the fact that we know have knowledge means we won't have that particular hyper-lethal encounter, still... personally i would suggest "Send Clones only", playing around with really lethal and dangerous place is something i would not do, if we can help it.
 
Dump combat, gain Underwater Basketweaving Domain.

With Isan gone, Hazō is the last heir to its legacy.
Underwater Basketweaving x Primordial Sealing unlocks Underwater Basket Sealing. You can now produce seals with the weft and warp of wicker threads, and bring with you whatever they make by putting it inside the basket.
"Willingness to eventually eat the faces of the primordial horrors that created you."
Willingness to face the fact that you'll eventually turn yourself into a horror and try to eat your loved ones' faces
The second we prove Primordial Sealing is Real and Useful, we're never getting deployed on a combat mission again, for sure.

Gives us more social time!
Oh boy we're going to have so many meetings :D
This is a 'rational' quest. The most rational explanation is that Hazo hallucinated out of desperation. Uh oh.
I understand "rational" as in "we patched the plot holes and made things make sense, people aren't completely ignorant or stupid and you're going to have to do some thinking to play," as opposed to "rationalist" which would be the twist of that: "what do I know, how do I know it, do I have to update my belief system" - think HPMOR. An entire plot hook and plotline about inner thought interpretation would toe the line, for all that the players are responsible as well. Also, not sure the QMs would enjoy that very much, though I can't speak for them.
At the very least, Hazō came out of this with new and then externally-verified knowledge (observation of Frog Kata), knowledge he did not expect (a different biome), and knowledge that actually surprised him (Jiraiya losing memories), with nothing overtly self-contradictory which he (or we) could pick apart. While a hallucination is not out of the question, it's not super likely in a context of a world with several cases of previously-observed spirit projection and targeted resurrection, IMO.
??? Hazō has literally said, onscreen, "I don't know if this was real or not."
Oh so when Mari dismisses what Hazō says it's fine but when we do it-- (jk)
We've seen the afterlife, we know it's a physical place where people who have died can move around and do things like that.
At the most technical, we've seen a place where Daizen went in the middle of a seal failure, where he popped up again and again after dissolving in a caustic sea again and again. We don't know if there's just one or even if it's normal behaviour. It probably is, but we have little data. Though I agree with your analysis, we have very little to substantiate it
Smashing the whole crystal to bits is only marginally better than not going at all. We'll get a moderately small and finite amount of crystal, which will diminish rapidly as we do even the most basic research into the discipline.
As per chapter 542, there's a lot of it. Not unimaginable amounts, but enough to get better and perhaps even enough to get a feel for types of materials that can work. At any rate, if we come back, we may see if the crystal is different, or if the piece that Hazō cut has regrown, but if it hasn't there's no reason not to take everything, prevent chakra golems from arising in the chakra-rich environment, end one of the sources of danger-to-humanity's-survival, etc.
I mention sentience because I have a strong preference against destroying a sentient life without good reason, and it's just plausible enough that the cave crystal might qualify in its own alien way that I would prefer we study it and make sure about that before we do anything that could be considered immoral.
That's good but there is no way that Hazō will be able to deduce that sentience unless it overtly communicates - and then there's the issue that it generates murderstatues, which, well, if it could communicate I would have assumed it do that first.
I don't think it's the cause of much death nowadays, since it doesn't extend its reach beyond the cave and the villagers nearby know how to stay safe around it.
They know how to stay relatively safe but they do seem to keep losing people to the "very hungry Lady Below." And anyone who doesn't do the necessary preparations apparently dies regardless.
But of course, the point is moot if there's no meaningful value in going there again in the first place.
I would argue "massive crystal that is our sole source of 3D sealing substrate" is good. Worst case scenario, if it's not enough for our purposes, as least Orochimaru can't have it.
The cave was remarkably docile at first, not even complaining when we chipped away some of the crystal. It only became aggressive when we attempted to Earthshape it, which we can avoid trying again
That's a fair point, my assumption was that it reacted to a whole, the same way a venus flytrap will snap only after several stimuli.
Shadow Clone makes this a lot safer
Iff they're in range. I mean it costs not a lot to try, but ultimately I'd want to argue for a "at the very least if the crystal is hostile again, blow it up for good with extreme prejudice" strategy.
And certainly, we can try out renewable crystal generation here at home.
Sounds to me like chasing after dreams tbh, we have nothing that points to "generation" but it certainly can be worth it if anything happens at all
Or maybe Orochimaru can
I'd really rather not give Orochimaru 3D sealing hints, for the same reason we're not giving him FOOM.
(Joke)

Hivemind: "This poor being... if only we had some way of communicating with it."

Also the Hivemind: "Its bones can be used for 3D Sealing. Get 'em."
Technically, everyone's bones can be used for sealing.
[Jk] Shake Shika Down for Lore
[JK] Shake Shika from Side to Side
 
I'd really rather not give Orochimaru 3D sealing hints, for the same reason we're not giving him FOOM.

"The Leaf Ninjutsu Library, sir," Hazō responded. The Iron Nerve refused to show his disappointment.

"I see," Orochimaru said. "Then I have delayed examining their collection for too long.

He is going to find out eventually. And if he suspects Hazou to know something he is going to force it out of him.

So it's better to plan how to approach him, especially with Mari, Ami and Asuma not wanting him to gain too much power.
 
Guys with the scale of the seals hazō's making, a tonne of material would last him for quite a while, even if he can't recycle it. The seals are only a few grams in size by description in the chapter, and from qm hints rapidly grow when ?activated/infused?

Which btw means hazō would have pasted himself, infusing it in his hand like that. Need to be in a rig above it I guess
 
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He is going to find out eventually. And if he suspects Hazou to know something he is going to lookforce it out of him.

So it's better to plan how to approach him, especially with Mari, Ami and Asuma not wanting him to gain too much power.
I don't doubt he will find out eventually but "Orochimaru will gain a power multiplier eventually" is better than "Orochimaru gets power multiplier now and also will take for himself all the crystal that we could use and leave us nothing." The later the better, since he'll need to build up to it as well.
 
Okay, so this is huge. We should talk to Asuma about 3D Sealing now that we have proof of concept. Possibly to Oro too, while he is a sleezy snake we need help against the Dragons, and now that we're through its a great opportunity to make sure he is positively predisposed towards us, because he does seem to respect competence. Plus brainstorming could well accelerate our training in the skill, and we really need a jumpstart on it.

As a sidenote, it feels a bit weird that PS would be separate, to be honest. I was expecting a Sealing primary + Earthshaping secondary kind of dynamic mirroring 2D Sealing's interaction with Calligraphy. It would have been quite elegant, though I guess that runs the issue of us being very competent in it from the get go.. but would that really be an issue, if 3D seals were all at least Jiraiya difficulty?
 
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As a sidenote, it feels a bit weird that PS would be separate, to be honest. I was expecting a Sealing primary + Earthshaping secondary kind of dynamic mirroring 2D Sealing's interaction with Calligraphy. It would have been quite elegant, though I guess that runs the issue of us being very competent in it from the get go.. but would that really be an issue, if 3D seals were all at least Jiraiya difficulty?
It certainly fits with all that we've seen from the only 3D seal we know: the Great Seal. It was incomprehensible and only the most general knowledge and information really ported over. We'll see how exactly "being incredibly skilled at Sealing already" helps, maybe it makes everything easier or speeds up research, but we knew it would never be easy.
What worries me the most about the Great Seal is not whether theory can get up to its level tbh, but how we're going to power it. Apparently it has ridiculous amounts of chakra in it. Would one Noburi-load be enough? Considering he'll have to top us several times on top of that so we don't die making the blank?
 
It certainly fits with all that we've seen from the only 3D seal we know: the Great Seal. It was incomprehensible and only the most general knowledge and information really ported over. We'll see how exactly "being incredibly skilled at Sealing already" helps, maybe it makes everything easier or speeds up research, but we knew it would never be easy.
What worries me the most about the Great Seal is not whether theory can get up to its level tbh, but how we're going to power it. Apparently it has ridiculous amounts of chakra in it. Would one Noburi-load be enough? Considering he'll have to top us several times on top of that so we don't die making the blank?
But the thing is, none of that difficulty points to "this is entirely alien" as opposed to "this is really, really, really difficult", and it could have simply been represented as such, with Sealing 80 + Shaping 60 or such being entry level to start doing anything with it.
 
I have no idea why y'all want to tell Oro. It's not like he's going to be better than us in anyway at PS.

I'd only want to show him if he has to give us S-rank secrets for the privilege
 
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Primordial Sealing being it's own stat is...kind of good news?(at least for preserveing our edge) Essies plateau, an while Sasori or Snuncle could push a new stat to 40, and might be able to push it to 60, there's going to have a hard time raising ES to 60 AND raising a double-cost Primordial sealing skill.

We will need to disclose our new abilities eventually, but should delay as long as we safely can. We need to keep the secret of PS-early-unlock via chakra crystal a secret, because ES 60 is much more prohibitive than ES 40.

Anyone know if Snuncle even has Earth Element? I assume Sasori does. But the more xp barriers between Orochimaru and Primordial Sealing the better.
 
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Anyone know if Snuncle even has Earth Element? I assume Sasori does. But the more xp barriers between Orochimaru and Primordial Sealing the better.
I would be astonished if Oro didn't have at least the basic 5 elements. Jiraiya did and he basically said anyone worth a damn in a fight against him probably has all 5. I think Zabuza said as much as well, something like any EJonin worth their salt would have them all. (TFW Mari learned the last two offscreen)

But then again Jiraiya and Zabuza both died so what do they know
 
I would be astonished if Oro didn't have at least the basic 5 elements. Jiraiya did and he basically said anyone worth a damn in a fight against him probably has all 5. I think Zabuza said as much as well, something like any EJonin worth their salt would have them all. (TFW Mari learned the last two offscreen)

But then again Jiraiya and Zabuza both died so what do they know
I thought that learning all 5 was a big point of pride for Jiraiya, and one of the things that stood out about his legend?
Not gonna qoute-hunt for this though.
 
"Here, as promised. Now, I felt like picking you a theme. See, when I was young and foolish, I thought it was acceptable for an elite shinobi to master less than all five basic elements, so I tried to make up for my lack of Wind with air-type seals. And that's what you're getting, complete with a few design notes I managed to scrounge up."
Right. Water beat Fire. One of Zabuza's favourite tactics for killing Leaf ninja was being turned against him. If you wanted to beat Water, you needed Earth, but while Zabuza could use it (any elite Mist jōnin who didn't have all five elements was a laughingstock), he was so heavily Water-aspected that using its counter-element was always a last resort.
 
I think Zabuza said as much as well, something like any EJonin worth their salt would have them all.
If memory serves, Zabuza thought to himself that a Mist elite jōnin without all 5 would look ridiculous or something. This doesn't have to be a universal thing. But I would never bet on an essie having 4 or less. That's the sort of assumption you regret
Edit: ah, faflec-ninja'd
 
Primordial Sealing being it's own stat is...kind of good news?(at least for preserveing our edge) Essies plateau, an while Sasori or Snuncle could push a new stat to 40, and might be able to push it to 60, there's going to have a hard time raising ES to 60 AND raising a double-cost Primordial sealing skill.

We will need to disclose our new abilities eventually, but should delay as long as we safely can. We need to keep the secret of PS-early-unlock via chakra crystal a secret, because ES 60 is much more prohibitive than ES 40.

Anyone know if Snuncle even has Earth Element? I assume Sasori does. But the more xp barriers between Orochimaru and Primordial Sealing the better.
Oro used Earth Style : Hiding Like a Mole while surveying the Great Seal, so yes, he has the Earth Element. Although I'd not bet on most essies having all five, there's really no reason for them to master those, its a ton of exp for very little gain.
 
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The five-element-jonin narrative still doesn't match with my understanding of the mechanics- surely pumping that 4000 exp into a powerful fire jutsu would be better than spreading it out to "cover weaknesses." It's not like a level 45 waterwhip is going to have a chance against a level 80 fireball or some such. Ooooh a +AB type advantage bonus! Sorry Noburi, you're still extra crispy.

You'd need to have something like a 2x type advantage in contested rolls before it makes sense- really penalize over specializing in the cases you meet somebody with the rock to your scissors.

It'd be cool if there were some sort of MW/RW/Taijutsu rock-paper-scissors going on, too. But that's neither here nor there.
 
Very relaxing to picture. I love how you went about this description, especially the ant metaphor
Thank you. :>

We saw Jiraiya use the Toad Thrust in the seance, something that Hazou didn't recognize and didn't remember seeing Jiraiya use before. When we replicated the movements to Naruto, he recognized it and confirmed that it was a taijutsu technique Jiraiya knew.
True. Updated my post to include that.

Hazou has made the transition from ninja punch wizard to actual wizard.
Oops. Fixed.
 
The five-element-jonin narrative still doesn't match with my understanding of the mechanics- surely pumping that 4000 exp into a powerful fire jutsu would be better than spreading it out to "cover weaknesses." It's not like a level 45 waterwhip is going to have a chance against a level 80 fireball or some such. Ooooh a +AB type advantage bonus! Sorry Noburi, you're still extra crispy.

You'd need to have something like a 2x type advantage in contested rolls before it makes sense- really penalize over specializing in the cases you meet somebody with the rock to your scissors.

It'd be cool if there were some sort of MW/RW/Taijutsu rock-paper-scissors going on, too. But that's neither here nor there.
Certainly not all jōnin have all 5: Mari started out with fewer than that. But when you near the top of the game you need to prepare a paper for every situation that could rock your scissors, otherwise you're just wearing an extremely big target on your back.
Iirc the mechanics are not fleshed out and it would be a huge time and effort investment to balance that can of worms, so even though it may be canon that water beats fire etc, we don't know how yet. Or do we? Last time I saw talk about that was quite some time ago. Probably a level 45 water whip would have a real effect on any fire technique, but of course let's not expect a level 3 Water Bullet to extinguish a Hiruzen-level inferno. Simulationism and all that.
 
As per chapter 542, there's a lot of it. Not unimaginable amounts, but enough to get better and perhaps even enough to get a feel for types of materials that can work. At any rate, if we come back, we may see if the crystal is different, or if the piece that Hazō cut has regrown, but if it hasn't there's no reason not to take everything, prevent chakra golems from arising in the chakra-rich environment, end one of the sources of danger-to-humanity's-survival, etc.

That's good but there is no way that Hazō will be able to deduce that sentience unless it overtly communicates - and then there's the issue that it generates murderstatues, which, well, if it could communicate I would have assumed it do that first.

They know how to stay relatively safe but they do seem to keep losing people to the "very hungry Lady Below." And anyone who doesn't do the necessary preparations apparently dies regardless.
So, I don't necessarily disagree with the logic here, and can see the moral end to this route being the destruction of the crystal for the safety of the civilians above... but I can't endorse not trying to fix things, at the very least.

When we had those Neck genin dead to rights, when our obligations demanded we kill them, we didn't shrug our shoulders immediately and splat them. We tried everything we could think of, until we ran out of ideas and knew we had no choice. The Sunset Racer, the Hyenas, Isan, we've never sought to kill without exhausting all other options first.

If we're taking these civilians under our aegis, specifically as opposed to generally, if we cannot condone walking away while they still suffer a threat, then the cave crystal is also close enough to fall under our aegis (assuming it has personhood, of course. If it's just a beastlike rock then we extract whatever value we want from it and then end the threat it poses). If the cave crystal is a person, then I won't accept any approach that doesn't genuinely try to preserve its life alongside the lives of the nearby humans. If it turns out there's no such way, that future death is guaranteed if we leave the cave alone, then we treat it like we would an unrepentant serial killer and most likely execute it for the good of society. But we're not at that point yet, we haven't even tried yet, and I refuse to let it end there. If our dedication to Uplift only extends to entities that provoke instinctive empathy within our monkeybrains, then we are in a sad state indeed.

So if we do go there again, if we decide to make this problem our specific responsibility (which is a reasonable thing to do when you could help in a lot of different areas: choose wherever provides the most net good overall and then do the best you can with what's in front of you), then I want to give this situation due moral justice. We'll do our best to find out if the cave is a person or a beast, and if it's a person then we'll try to find some way for it to live in peace without killing any humans, and if we fundamentally can't do that then we execute the crystal to save the civilians. But we don't give up halfway through just because it would take more effort to empathize with a cave crystal than with a talking dog.
 
So, I don't necessarily disagree with the logic here, and can see the moral end to this route being the destruction of the crystal for the safety of the civilians above... but I can't endorse not trying to fix things, at the very least.

When we had those Neck genin dead to rights, when our obligations demanded we kill them, we didn't shrug our shoulders immediately and splat them. We tried everything we could think of, until we ran out of ideas and knew we had no choice. The Sunset Racer, the Hyenas, Isan, we've never sought to kill without exhausting all other options first.

If we're taking these civilians under our aegis, specifically as opposed to generally, if we cannot condone walking away while they still suffer a threat, then the cave crystal is also close enough to fall under our aegis (assuming it has personhood, of course. If it's just a beastlike rock then we extract whatever value we want from it and then end the threat it poses). If the cave crystal is a person, then I won't accept any approach that doesn't genuinely try to preserve its life alongside the lives of the nearby humans. If it turns out there's no such way, that future death is guaranteed if we leave the cave alone, then we treat it like we would an unrepentant serial killer and most likely execute it for the good of society. But we're not at that point yet, we haven't even tried yet, and I refuse to let it end there. If our dedication to Uplift only extends to entities that provoke instinctive empathy within our monkeybrains, then we are in a sad state indeed.

So if we do go there again, if we decide to make this problem our specific responsibility (which is a reasonable thing to do when you could help in a lot of different areas: choose wherever provides the most net good overall and then do the best you can with what's in front of you), then I want to give this situation due moral justice. We'll do our best to find out if the cave is a person or a beast, and if it's a person then we'll try to find some way for it to live in peace without killing any humans, and if we fundamentally can't do that then we execute the crystal to save the civilians. But we don't give up halfway through just because it would take more effort to empathize with a cave crystal than with a talking dog.
Honestly I see nothing that points to the crystal being sentient, not any more than any rock at all, and we certainly never tried to go see what was the centre of the Swamp of Death either, to converse with it or anything. The ES feedback was "put into words" but in the same way it was with the rest of the earth and stone Hazō tried the technique with - and that feedback was not even from the crystal, but from the ground, away from it. Our best guess from that IMO should be that just like with chakra adhesion, the presence of high levels of nature/natural(?) chakra here, concentrated in the crystal much like a chakra battery, automatically reject others types coming in.
Hell, it's not even just that - the only confirmed case of chakra creating life out of no life is chakra golems, which generate in the precise conditions seen there. Even them we don't know to be sentient, considering the difficulty of surviving the encounter. I am of course not against keeping an open mind and looking for signs of sentience, but it's very much not the zero hypothesis and it confuses me that we keep it as a starting point.
And the thing is, high concentrations of chakra makes dangerous wildlife no matter what, apparently. We can't stop that, and Uplift was supposed to try and solve this war of attrition humanity is losing. Not preserve every single theoretical life - which is infeasible. Best case scenario for the crystal if it's sentient and can be reasoned with would be to convince it to burrow itself so deep underground even a chakra golem generating near it couldn't come out. And then hope we didn't need that material it's made of to practise lithosealing because if the Dragons ruin the Seventh Path and gain the ability to travel to ours they'll kill it too.
But I mean, it still feels weird to theorise about the need to save the crystal even if it's sentient given the danger and all when the cast is not even vegetarian. There's saveable sentience right there
 
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The five-element-jonin narrative still doesn't match with my understanding of the mechanics- surely pumping that 4000 exp into a powerful fire jutsu would be better than spreading it out to "cover weaknesses." It's not like a level 45 waterwhip is going to have a chance against a level 80 fireball or some such. Ooooh a +AB type advantage bonus! Sorry Noburi, you're still extra crispy.

You'd need to have something like a 2x type advantage in contested rolls before it makes sense- really penalize over specializing in the cases you meet somebody with the rock to your scissors.

It'd be cool if there were some sort of MW/RW/Taijutsu rock-paper-scissors going on, too. But that's neither here nor there.
And it means paying full price for five different Jutsu. And those Jutsu would need to be reasonably high level to justify the xp cost of buying the element.
 
Honestly I see nothing that points to the crystal being sentient, not any more than any rock at all, and we certainly never tried to go see what was the centre of the Swamp of Death either, to converse with it or anything. The ES feedback was "put into words" but in the same way it was with the rest of the earth and stone Hazō tried the technique with - and that feedback was not even from the crystal, but from the ground, away from it. Our best guess from that IMO should be that just like with chakra adhesion, the presence of high levels of nature/natural(?) chakra here, concentrated in the crystal much like a chakra battery, automatically reject others types coming in.
Hell, it's not even just that - the only confirmed case of chakra creating life out of no life is chakra golems, which generate in the precise conditions seen there. Even them we don't know to be sentient, considering the difficulty of surviving the encounter. I am of course not against keeping an open mind and looking for signs of sentience, but it's very much not the zero hypothesis and it confuses me that we keep it as a starting point.
And the thing is, high concentrations of chakra makes dangerous wildlife no matter what, apparently. We can't stop that, and Uplift was supposed to try and solve this war of attrition humanity is losing. Not preserve every single theoretical life - which is infeasible. Best case scenario for the crystal if it's sentient and can be reasoned with would be to convince it to burrow itself so deep underground even a chakra golem generating near it couldn't come out. And then hope we didn't need that material it's made of to practise lithosealing because if the Dragons ruin the Seventh Path and gain the ability to travel to ours they'll kill it too.
But I mean, it still feels weird to theorise about the need to save the crystal even if it's sentient given the danger and all when the cast is not even vegetarian. There's saveable sentience right there

I feel that the point is "There is a relevant probability of the crystal being sentient and intelligent and willfully ignoring it because it's easier it's not a cool thing to do". Hazou as a character wouldn't go "Oh, it's possible that the crystal is alive, but who cares to check? let's murderize some crystal" he would go "There is a small but possible chance the crystal is a live....and i don't want to kill sentient people if i can help it".
As you pointed out, Uplift cannot preserve every single life, but neither kills them willy-nilly because it's easier than trying to save them, that's the realm of Hidan or Leaf, that treats lives as currency to be exchanged, regardless of how precious they consider them(Hidan consider them worthless, Leaf consider them important, but still, at the end of the day, currency).
 
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