Before:
Of course he knew why it wasn't working. The stone was too diffuse, too impure. It needed to be denser and made of only one material. He had tried multiple different kinds of stone but none had been suitable. He had tried to fix it himself with Earthshaping and failed every time. No matter how much he pushed at the jutsu, no matter how carefully he attempted to comb through the stone in order to filter the intrusions, it wasn't enough. His metaphysical fingers were too fat, his metaphysical eyes too blurry. They had improved as he practiced with the jutsu—when he first learned it he had barely been able to tell anything about the internals of the material whereas now it was as though he was looking through a thick gauze blindfold.

After:
The 'eyes' that the jutsu provided had always been half-blind, leaving everything fuzzy and clouded. Today, as he rejected everything that was weighing upon his mind and left his self behind in the quest to lose himself for a time...today he saw more clearly.

Without even thinking about it, he placed his hand on the marble and pulled the bits of gold together, shoving everything else aside. The marble disintegrated, all its parts falling to dust and arranging into a neatly squared-off pile to one side.

In his hand was a tiny sphere of gold, barely a quarter the size of his pinky nail. The sphere was completely pure; he knew this all the way to his bones, in the same way that he knew he existed.

Tbh I think it's doable now. It's not like getting ES50 was just gonna magically grant a 3D sealing stunt.
 
Yep, Hagoromo lose nothing and Goketsu loses a spec jonin and their third strongest fighter. Not to mention the lover/girlfriend/future wife of the Clan Head.

Seems about fair.
This isn't about fair. There is no fair outcome here unless the Hagoromo can turn back the clock and report Akane's mission status at the time it should have been reported.

What do you actually want? Nothing is going to bring Akane back. Hurting the Hagoromo might make you feel better but it isn't going to help, and like Asuma pointed out, Ruka was seemingly totally uninvolved in her death.

Finding out that Asuma executed someone might make you feel better but in the same way that it's wrong that we found out that Akane was late and possibly lost some leads on her ambushers because it made Ruka feel better, it's wrong to demand the death penalty because we'd feel better. I cannot possibly believe I need to explain to people that feeling upset is an insufficient justification for hurting someone, especially in this case, where someone feeling upset and deciding that was sufficient justification for hurting someone was what created this situation in the first place.

I'm going to stop engaging in this topic - at least, with individuals directly - because it makes me furious but I think everyone demanding vengeance is at the very least acting immaturely and needs to take a step back, book an appointment with their therapist, and...honestly I can't think of anything polite to say here so I won't. More death won't help. More suffering won't help.

Anyone who wants to tell me that 'we need to send a message' or 'what's to stop them doing it again' can piss directly off. The Hokage has sent a message - namely, 'if you do this I will cut you off from your family and friends for the rest of your life'. What's to stop them doing this again? Nothing. You can't stop people from doing things unless you kill them or imprison them, and killing/imprisoning every Hagoromo is off the table for both practical and philosophical reasons.

The things people have said about this have been revealing and disappointing. I am sick and tired of watching grown adults - some of whom I respect, and respect not insignificantly less, now - argue in favour of hate and suffering.

Be better.
 
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In fact, I've been wanting to do a timeskip for at least the past six months, so we can have some time to get some sealing research and training done, and skip ahead to something more exciting.
Note that you got ES 50 as a freebie in terms of training time. If we were willing to be strict, Hazō hasn't been able to train properly for a month as a result of full-time Conclave work followed by full-time Akane-chasing work.
 
This isn't about fair. There is no fair outcome here unless the Hagoromo can turn back the clock and report Akane's mission status at the time it should have been reported.

What do you actually want? Nothing is going to bring Akane back.

Sure. People here are maybe a little to childish and revenge focused. But car accidents seem like a pretty good intuition pump? If you injure someone in a car accident, even if due to incompetence, and zero malice, you still go to jail, lose your licence and you still have to pay for their medical bills, and lost wages? Seems like we should ask the same? Ask for special jonin equivalent wages for ~a year? (or however long the average lifespan of a ninja in Akane's position is) And then put that money to fund the bank or something. (Same with the Kei that died, ask for ~1 year genin wage's to go toward families?) The point isn't revenge, but to price in the costs of incompetence and not have it be an negative externality. Then (hopefully) when a budding entrepreneur offers consulting on how to suck less on paperwork, the Hagoromo are incentivized to take it.
 
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Sure. People here are maybe a little to childish and revenge focused. But car accidents seem like a pretty good intuition pump? If you injure someone in a car accident, even if due to incompetence, and zero malice, you still go to jail, lose your licence and you still have to pay for their medical bills, and lost wages? Seems like we should ask the same? Ask for special jonin equivalent wages for ~a year? (or however long the average lifespan of a ninja in Akane's position is) And then put that money to fund the bank or something.
In real life, we don't respond to a car accident by putting them in what effectively amounts to solitary confinement with the threat of being hunted down like a dog if you ever try to leave.
 
Sure. People here are maybe a little to childish and revenge focused. But car accidents seem like a pretty good intuition pump? If you injure someone in a car accident, even if due to incompetence, and zero malice, you still go to jail, lose your licence and you still have to pay for their medical bills, and lost wages? Seems like we should ask the same? Ask for special jonin equivalent wages for ~a year? (or however long the average lifespan of a ninja in Akane's position is) And then put that money to fund the bank or something.
The comparable situation here would be Ruka driving by the accident and then phoning it in a week later despite some duty to let us know about it earlier. Asuma was very clear that he does not hold Ruka responsible for Akane's death.

How much would you pay to live in the world where Ruka told us immediately and the world we inhabit? How much of that do the Hagoromo owe us?

The material differential is that the trail is colder than it would have been. What's the value of that - to us, and to Leaf? IMO it's extremely indeterminate and we're better off not trying to litigate its value.
 
The thing is that Ruka is not directly responsible. Ruka is not even the first or second in line for being responsible. Akane's loss is first by whoever ordered the op and the people who carried out the op. Blaming the Hagoromo is misplacing the responsibility on the real culprits.
 
We wanted to work with the Akatsuki. We told Asuma that if we have to swallow boiling hatred to make the world better we should be glad for the job. I don't get why this is so infuriating.
 
Ruka being banished doesn't solve anything. All it does is deprive Leaf of another ninja. I agree that she shouldn't remain in the Tower, or in any office position. But exile doesn't help anyone.

Instead of solitary confinement and exile (which further drains ninja manpower by necessitating additional missions), how about we assign her to have her chakra drained (for free) for a period of a year. Her chakra will be used to help jonin train. During this year, she will be made to work with civilian work crews, and will be given a chance to contribute towards Leaf's betterment in a more hands-on way. Hopefully, working with the civilians will help humanize them to her. Then, after that year is over, she will return to active missions for an additional year, but she will be restricted to taking Till'n'Fills, without the Goketsu Supplementary Pay.

This makes Ruka useful to Leaf, while also giving her the opportunity to grow as a person --developing the defects in her character that caused this.
 
Asuma's punishment for the Hagoromo is less than what probably many of us hoped for, but his reasoning is sound, in my opinion, and I don't know that we can ask for a lot more. With regard to reconciliation plans, I don't have any ideas, but I think it could be worth consulting with Mari, and Ami if she's in town. Although I have nearly zero interest in actually reading about this. In fact, I've been wanting to do a timeskip for at least the past six months, so we can have some time to get some sealing research and training done, and skip ahead to something more exciting. And there's always been something urgent to take care of that's prevented this, but I think most of those items have been cleared up by now. So I'll ask again, what do we need to do before we can have a timeskip?
We need to finish the Conclave.

We need to be sure that the investigation into Akane's ambush is being handled competently and won't suffer from a lack of our direct attention/plan-making.

Ditto the above, but about the Great Seal.

We need to figure out the Orochimaru-Ren situation because when he finds out we lied to him about the Iron Nerve that has the potential to be a Problem.
"GM had fun" XP: -4 for having more than 3 scenes (7 scenes total), even if I didn't get to all of them. The scenes were:

  1. Akane's parents
  2. The speech to the clan
  3. Talk to Shikamaru/Kei
  4. Speak to the clan about no retaliation
  5. Talk to Naruto
  6. Talk to Lee
  7. Earthshape a statue
Note that this count still doesn't include a bunch of stuff such as 'Spend time with friends, family', and 'Grieve'. Seal research is usually offscreened so I don't count that one.
Question: how can we (in future) communicate 'I want Hazo to do these things but I want him to do them offscreen'?

Let's take 'grieve', for example. I, the author of the plan, though it was important that he actually spend time doing that. I didn't want to actually see it because it isn't interesting to write about and his decision to do or not do it is not tremendously mechanically relevant. I assume he would have done that but wanted to guard against the case where he sits on his feelings for a long time and eventually explodes.

Or, apologizing to Rock Lee. My assumption would be that Hazo would find Lee, sincerely apologize, Lee would forgive him, espouse the gospel of Youth, and then we'd move on. I think it's important that we've done that, but I don't think it's important that we see it. I'm thrilled to be wrong - as in, I would be happy to learn that conversation will require a scene as it will have significant impact or we're going to learn important things about Lee, etc. etc.

And I honestly thought about just sending Naruto a note - again, I think it's important, and that one, I can see going a bit differently (e.g., actual stakes, valuable information) but 'hey, thanks, you were cool and we appreciate it, don't let us keep you from Ma and Pa but we wanted to say something' is all I really felt we'd need.

But if I'd known it would require a scene, I would have thought twice about including it.

Any ideas/suggestions, here?

Also, an extremely minor point: there were seven scenes in this plan. Is the perspective I should take that while you only needed to write two (it doesn't look like the version of the speech I wrote saw significant editing - I'd be fascinated to find out what the legalese of the seal bank deal looks like) getting the extra wordcount in the plan offsets that?
This makes Ruka useful to Leaf, while also giving her the opportunity to grow as a person --developing the defects in her character that caused this.
$10 says that she keeps associating with the Hagoromo (she's in the village) and just doubles down on hating the Goketsu.

She's still available as a ninja - Asuma can recall her as needed, and honestly she's probably not a significant combat asset as she had carefully-manicured nails and worked in the Tower.

Making her hate Noburi doesn't really help anyone, and she 100% would.
 
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PLEASE update the Jutsu doc (or at least tell us ES50 doesn't unlock anything)! We've waited for sooooooo long.
It is done!

Here's the new text:


Selection and Purification


At level 50 you may purify the material, choosing one component to retain and ejecting all others. Impurities come out in the form of dust with all types mixed together. The retained material must end up as a single object. Using this ability gives you an impression of immense potential. You can feel the ninjutsu pushing you to advance your skill and learn its powerful still-hidden capabilities.

Using the above ability will increase the TN for your targeted shape.


She would have died to the group of chuunin and genin in Isan, then she would also have died to a random jounin in Hot Springs had we not been there in both cases, because the most she could do was lock down one target and leave herself completely helpless. That is not being an elite jounin in a combat scenario.
You might want to go back and reread the first visit to Isan. As to Hot Springs, if y'all (the kids) hadn't been there then she wouldn't have been in that situation so it seems a little disingenuous to say "she would have died if we hadn't been there." I also think you're being uncharitable in your interpretation of the combat. She did what she did because it was the best thing she could do to let *you* survive while fighting against two close-combat jōnin in a small room. She expected that she would lock Jōtarō down, you guys would run, and Komori would prioritize kill Mari and freeing Jōtarō over chasing you.
 
Hagoromo Ruka unmade the Hagoromo as a Clan. "Oh just forget a Person on a misssion", I am sure that makes an impression.

The Hagoromo are done as a Clan. If Kakashis father got shit for tryting to save his friends, she is done.
 
You're unhelpable when you mourn
Clocks tick and bells still ring
The world carries on next morn
But nobody does a thing
Whispering behind their hands
Lost for kind words to say
Nobody understands
Then everyone goes away
Jōnin wanna fix things
When they can't it only fills them with shame
So they praise Wills of Fire
Is it being greedy to ask people to think of her
And say her name?
Seems when you lose your one
No one turns off the sun
You must weather the storm
You're unhelpable when you mourn
Especially her father's face, as his thoughts flashed back to the long-gone moment when he told Hazō-the-missing-nin to stay away from Akane because all he could bring her was heartache and danger.
Oof. Gut punch to the feels.
How was Hazō supposed to tell him that he had been right?
Hazō is hurting right now, but he literally extended her life by a lot. And we're all agreed that he'll do it again. He got her out of the Liberator debacle, and got her survivability-enhancing seals by the hundred, which might well have saved her skin during several missions.
Hazō took a military bath (fast enough but thorough enough to satisfy the angriest of instructors)
Practical, useful. Probably enough repetition to be engrained in supernatural eidetic muscle memory and natural memory alike. Reminiscent of Mist's exacting academy standards. Calling back to how Hazō used to be berated by the instructors too. Military standards - done in a mechanical way, simultaneously for thinking, because of Hazō's "shell-shock", because of his "puppet self" thing...
Holy shit how can you fit so many layers in a bath?
Sage damn it I love it when the curtains are blue.
He could remember, dimly, his father's death. The memories felt dreamlike, almost unreal, memories of someone else who happened to be observing a mourning child. He could see, now, that the child had been drowning—drowning in grief, drowning in confusion, drowning in anger.
Hat (which all French people wear at all times) tipped low to FaintlySorcerous for this visceral yet relatable description. The entire omake, really. Cathartic, clever, beautifully worded.
He catalogued her makeup before looking beneath it; the powder revealed worry lines, artfully-smudged darkness at the corners of her eyes distracted from barely-visible bags, mascara offset bloodshot eyes. He kept looking, seeing the tension in her jaw, the clenched teeth, the—
Was thinking earlier today at how Mari acts so adult always, she's been Team Mum forever but even before - she's a twenty-something, right? But the way she acts regularly would be expected from someone ten years older, and the way she deals with her own demons and her past screams "someone in their 60s"... if we find Yagura in the underworld, let's make him pay twice over for the horrors of the Bloody Mist.
She was keeping it together, and that worried him.
RIGHT???
It had a doorway but no door.
The dual symbolism of doors, simultaneously ways in and obstacles, reduced to unconditional entry granted all. Classy.
As always, it wasn't pure. It was too many different kinds of things, all lumped together. He didn't have names for them, but he knew them the way he knew friends.
... are we gonna Mendeleev speedrun?
He had heard Kagome-sensei talk about it. Mica! That was it. While living in the woods, Sensei had found a sheet of it that he had repurposed into a hand-sized mirror with which to shave.
He likes rocks. We might have his next birthday present, tbh. Expertly-sculpted, beautiful as can be, rock-based mirror.
He stared, and then he smiled and pulled all of it together again to form the first version of a statue. A statue of his lost love, Gōketsu Akane.
Beautiful.
Asuma nodded acknowledgement and took one of the cookies.
Has he been growing a sweet tough specifically since he stopped smoking, or am I unobservant and it was already there? I think that's not the first time he's got cookies.
the idiots of the Kurosawa got their noses out of joint about your father and then refused to lose face by backing down.
Hard to lose face when keeping your face under control is literally your bloodline's main power.
Anyway, I'd like to lay out for you exactly what's going on and why.
LORD HOKAGE ASUMA SIR I LOVE YOU
Right now, Ruka gets that benefit and I'm sure it makes you grind your teeth."

Hazō carefully unclenched his jaw. "Not at all, sir."
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
Asuma snorted. "Here's your first lesson in Clan Headship: get better at lying."
Oh, he'll come to regret saying this. I mean, I hope he won't have to, but realistically he will.
"I immediately regret my words,"
.... it seems that sometimes, I share more than a name with a prophet. xD
It's possible that one or two of them would start loading up wagons and finding lodgings outside of Leaf.
I'm fairly confident that most clans and jōnin have readied caches and safehouses, secret and hidden, throughout at least all of Fire.
"Hagoromo Ruka is being banished. Technically, she's being permanently assigned to a post on the very edge of Leaf, but she isn't going to be rotated out and will be given explicit orders to remain on station 24/7. Contact with her family and friends will be heavily restricted; no visitors, one resupply mission per month, all mail in and out redacted of anything that isn't mission relevant. There is no one else at her post so she'll be alone, with no one to talk to and no one to watch her back against threats. Agents will check in frequently to ensure that she has not left her post or had unsanctioned outside contact. If they find that she has then she will be in direct violation of orders and will be declared a missing-nin with a kill-on-sight order."
Oooooh, that's morally conflicting. Beyond the ethics and morals of it, she's basically being tested and pushed to fault, too.
You and Lord Hagoromo are never going to like each other
We can still pretend, right? At least to see Ritsuo's face?
If you have suggestions on a better way to heal the breech between the Gōketsu and the Hagoromo, I'm willing to use those instead.
CAN WE ADOPT HARUMITSU, THEY CAN HAVE HARU :D
More seriously... yeah, I can totally see Asuma's plan work like a charm, if the GED classes happening aren't on Gōketsu grounds (so we don't have to have spy scares). I mean we're angry at the Hagoromo who follow Ritsuo's lead, but Ritsuo and some of his cronies hate all of Gōketsu: we do have less work to do to heal the rift, and they'll literally help us with doing our education job. It's win-win for us as far as I'm concerned. As for the KEI classes... we get to better our KEI standing, really. The Hagoromo probably won't. But if they do, hey, that's good. Clan-KEI relations improving is a good thing.
 
The comparable situation here would be Ruka driving by the accident and then phoning it in a week later despite some duty to let us know about it earlier. Asuma was very clear that he does not hold Ruka responsible for Akane's death.

How much would you pay to live in the world where Ruka told us immediately and the world we inhabit? How much of that do the Hagoromo owe us?

The material differential is that the trail is colder than it would have been. What's the value of that - to us, and to Leaf? IMO it's extremely indeterminate and we're better off not trying to litigate its value.

No, no, the point is not for us to get value, it's to create a system that disincentivizes this type of behavior in the future. At a system level, not an individual. How factories were made safe (plz read) It's about transitioning from "you should have been more careful during your job at the factory, and are at fault for losing your fingers" to "the company is always at fault, so we (the company) might as well design the machines to be as safe as they can be given the other tradeoffs we face"
 
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No, no, the point is not for us to get value, it's to create a system that disincentivizes this type of behavior in the future. At a system level, not an individual. How factories were made safe
The Hagoromo are effectively going to undergo a corporate audit. This audit will probably be conducted by Nara investigators who might tap Naruto for manpower. The best-case outcome being that they eat heavy fines issued by a military dictator, and the worst-case being that a bunch of their nin get exiled.

If that doesn't make everyone in the Tower straighten up and fly right then nothing will.

Audit defence is a huge industry because companies are terrified of audits. And the consequences of those audits are enforced by our mundane, civilian government. The incentive structures are going to get fixed. No one wants to be audited because every audit finds something.
 
Or, apologizing to Rock Lee. My assumption would be that Hazo would find Lee, sincerely apologize, Lee would forgive him, espouse the gospel of Youth, and then we'd move on. I think it's important that we've done that, but I don't think it's important that we see it. I'm thrilled to be wrong - as in, I would be happy to learn that conversation will require a scene as it will have significant impact or we're going to learn important things about Lee, etc. etc.
Personally, I'm up for a longer Lee scene. We're a bit busy these days but I've a longstanding opinion that we would benefit from closer ties to the Church of Youth. It's very close to Uplift in ideology and thanks to the Most Youthful Hokage is being actively taught in the Academy right alongside the Will of Fire. At the very least we could gain from providing mutual support and collaboration, but I also think that we could talk about the nature of Youth and Uplift, what it means to its adherents (and what they meant to Akane), and maybe push Lee (and, consequently, the Church of Youth and all the Academy students who learn about it) that much closer to Uplift proper.

Of course, the plan is just an apology scene, which I vehemently think was needed, but I'm totally up for more than just that.
 
The Hagoromo are effectively going to undergo a corporate audit. This audit will probably be conducted by Nara investigators who might tap Naruto for manpower. The best-case outcome being that they eat heavy fines issued by a military dictator, and the worst-case being that a bunch of their nin get exiled.

If that doesn't make everyone in the Tower straighten up and fly right then nothing will.

Audit defence is a huge industry because companies are terrified of audits. And the consequences of those audits are enforced by our mundane, civilian government. The incentive structures are going to get fixed. No one wants to be audited because every audit finds something.

And audits come with fines if found to be in the wrong. We should do similiar.
 
Let's take 'grieve', for example. I, the author of the plan, though it was important that he actually spend time doing that. I didn't want to actually see it because it isn't interesting to write about and his decision to do or not do it is not tremendously mechanically relevant. I assume he would have done that but wanted to guard against the case where he sits on his feelings for a long time and eventually explodes.
Yup, all fair. That's why I didn't count it as a scene.

Also, an extremely minor point: there were seven scenes in this plan. Is the perspective I should take that while you only needed to write two (it doesn't look like the version of the speech I wrote saw significant editing - I'd be fascinated to find out what the legalese of the seal bank deal looks like) getting the extra wordcount in the plan offsets that?
I too will be fascinated to know what the legalese is. :> We need to figure that out.

At least for my updates, if you would like to have a section labeled 'background' with things like that, I'm okay with it. In the past I (we?) have said we dislike that, but it's probably worth it to communicate expectations more clearly.

Also, yes, your speech was only *very* lightly edited because it was very good.
 
80 is kage level in a skill. Elite jonin are supposed to present a non negligible threat to S ranks. I see them as the specjonin to essies.
I fundamentally disagree about this assessment. A special jounin is NOT necessarily weaker than a jounin within their specialization, it is just that a regular jounin has multiple specializations, which allows them to operate alone on missions, and makes them versatile. A combat SJ fighting a typical jounin is not "a threat", they are an even match. But the full jounin has other skills than that direct combat monofocus skill in their toolkit.

An elite jounin is a ninja that is markedly better in their focus than a SJ is at theirs, and then also a jounin on top of that. That doesn't make them an equal of an essie at their specialization, which being "the specjonin to essies" would imply. A ~30k XP Mari at the beginning of the quest is about the equal of a 14k XP combat specialist. I would consider 15k the border of full jouninhood, so she is borderline an elite jounin.

Assuming Mari had a base rate of 5/day and she was 25 start of quest, that is 14 years of xp + initial 1000 from academy = 26,550 xp, easily enough to get an 80 capstone. Now, the average jonin who accrued precisely that much may not have an 80 anyways due to buying a bunch of stunts and such, but it's 100% doable. She may have been older than that too, idk. Since the start of the quest she'd have accrued almost 6k just from normal base rate, not to mention any SC XP.

My assessment of Mari's initial build puts her at ~29.7k XP at the time, which would be quite close to your 26.55k. However, that is not even close to an 80 capstone. She does not even have a 70 capstone with that, and a Special Jounin with less than 14k XP can be her equal in direct combat, if they monofocus on combat related Skills! At the beginning of the quest (but in the current ruleset) I'd put Mari at:

Lv 65 : 4 (Genjutsu, Rapport, Deceit, Resolve)
Lv 55 : 4 (Taijutsu, Athletics, Alertness, Presence)
Lv 45 : 5 (Chakra Reserves, Physique, Empathy, 2 jutsu)
Lv 35 : 6 (Stealth, Intimidation, Substitution, 3 jutsu)
Lv 25 : 7 (Ranged Weapons, Examination, Performance, 4 jutsu)
Lv 15 : 8 (2 minor skills, 6 jutsu)
Lv 5 : 8 (Stuff)

Stunts : 1500 XP (Extra elemental nature and other goodies)

And sure, you could prop the pyramid higher from that for relatively little XP, but she didn't do that back then. She probably absolutely has by now, though. In the Mfd system there are those weird wide XP brackets where for a long time the potential capstones barely move, only to then catapult forward the moment one passes them, and that's what happens with special jounin and elite jounin, and then with essies afterwards.
 
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Hat (which all French people wear at all times) tipped low to FaintlySorcerous for this visceral yet relatable description. The entire omake, really. Cathartic, clever, beautifully worded.
And I tip my chapeau to you, madam. (Mademoiselle? Madame? It's been a decade since I've touched French.)
The dual symbolism of doors, simultaneously ways in and obstacles, reduced to unconditional entry granted all. Classy.
Thank you. I thought it was a nice touch.
And audits come with fines if found to be in the wrong. We should do similiar.
Asuma literally said he'd fine them. The Tower is the aggrieved party, not the Goketsu, so it makes sense for them to collect the money. (Making a case for Goketsu getting any of it would require that we articulate and quantify the material harm done to the Goketsu by finding out about Akane's death a week late - again, I don't think that's worth litigating.) Maybe we'll see some of it, but we need to let the audit finish before we start talking about that.

...honestly funnelling a decent quantity of those fines into the Team Akane Seal Bank as a method of distributing the fines to the impacted parties - almost certainly overwhelmingly clanless shinobi - would be a bro move.
 
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