In short, I would advocate for learning Shadow Imitiation, Shadow Step and Shadow Betrayal, and using those in tandem with Shadow Clones to make for the basis of Kei's new fighting style. I would expect having Kei move around and focus on survival while the clones bind the enemy and brute force Shadow Imitation checks on a heavily debuffed opponent to be extremely effective, in single combat especially.

Of course ideally she would be learning all of those, but those are the right ones to level, in my opinion. If we weren't in a deathworld I would be happy to defer to her preferences, but the two jutsu she says are personally appealing and suit her style feel like the least synergetic ones.

...Also, are we sure that it is Tobirama that made the Shadow Clone technique, and not some Nara, where it was only attributed to the Second afterwards? It just fits the clan extremely well, both in theme, use and the technique name.
 
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crossing a lot at a time is often redundant with how the mechanics work.
What?? Crossing many zones without needing to burn your Standard is extremely good in FtD, since everyone else is limited to, at most, 2 zones if they use a supplemental to move and a supplemental to Substitute (barring other supplemental jutsu like vacuum step), unless they want to waste their standard and be unable to attack you that round. This leaves you able to both attack and stay out of reach pretty easily, especially for a Ranged fighter like Kei. And people are not inclined to use both supplementals like that at once anyways because it leaves no Substitution for their dodges, so generally they aren't moving more than a zone per round unless they really have to or they've got a useful movement jutsu like vacuum step.

Also, it makes it way easier to escape unwinnable fights when you can move faster than your opponent. Similarly, it makes it much easier to chase down a fleeing opponent while reserving your Standard to attack them or perform a different jutsu or whatever.

Substitution is also Reflexive Supplemental and burns less CP, which is relevant with Shadow Clones, which can further be used in tandem with Shadow Step to actively bind the enemy, instead of doing so reactively, making for a very strong combination.
Oh sure, I agree Shadow Step sounds good and fills a useful niche, but I don't think it's a replacement for Vacuum step nor do I think it was intended to be.

we know Substitution is extremely worth levelling even without it applying the debuff, while Vacuum is not so much.
Agreed on the first part, but as I've already said, moving several zones for a supplemental is actually very good in this system and Vacuum step is also worth leveling, though it's not my immediate priority. Especially if it's half costed (currently only half costed to 20.)

I would advocate for learning Shadow Imitiation, Shadow Step and Shadow Betrayal
I agree with this.
 
Agreed on the first part, but as I've already said, moving several zones for a supplemental is actually very good in this system and Vacuum step is also worth leveling, though it's not my immediate priority. Especially if it's half costed (currently only half costed to 20.)

Oh, I'm talking when combined with Shadow Clones and the rest of her kit. Kei proper does not want to use her Standard to actually attack people - that is decisively the clones' job, hence she has both her Standard and both Supplementals at her disposal to keep her safe, and all of those can go towards movement besides the first battle round on which she is summoning SCs if caught unprepared. In this context Vaccum is not great, because it doesn't actually get her out of danger when used, while Shadow Step can shift her around Zones, swapping with her clones or objects, confusing the enemy, and be used by her clones to shift with her to save her in a pinch and simultaneously slow the opponent down (one or two of the clones can even actively be summoned with doing this and keeping her safe in mind).

In an ideal scenario Kei proper is never anywhere near the opponent she is fighting. She wants to run away or lie in hiding while her clones dispatch or slow the enemy, and with all her actions already dedicated to escaping, levelling Vacuum Step high does not bring much to the table, while doing so with Shadow Step does.
 
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Oh, I'm talking when combined with Shadow Clones and the rest of her kit.
In an ideal scenario Kei proper is never anywhere close to the opponent she is fighting.
Kei is not always going to be using Shadow clone.
- If she's already fought that day or otherwise burned chakra and can't afford it or would be running on empty.
- If she needs to preserve chakra for after that fight.
- If she's injured (copied injuries pop Shadow clones instantly).
- If she's poisoned, the environment is hazardous, or otherwise she's debuffed to take stress/round.
- She's already taken mental stress or consequences and won't beat the Resolve check
- She decides to use that chakra to summon a jonin instead of her middling strength clones

Sure, in an ideal world she will always be topped up and healthy but we should plan for every scenario, not just ones that favor us. For your very specific battle strategy then sure I can see why you don't think it will be helpful, but I don't think it's a good idea to limit ourselves to needing a very specific strategy to win. Jonin supposedly win by diversifying their builds so they have many strategies if their go-to doesn't work.
 
Kei is not always going to be using Shadow clone.
- If she's already fought that day or otherwise burned chakra and can't afford it or would be running on empty.
- If she needs to preserve chakra for after that fight.
- If she's injured (copied injuries pop Shadow clones instantly).
- If she's poisoned, the environment is hazardous, or otherwise she's debuffed to take stress/round.
- She's already taken mental stress or consequences and won't beat the Resolve check
- She decides to use that chakra to summon a jonin instead of her middling strength clones

Sure, in an ideal world she will always be topped up and healthy but we should plan for every scenario, not just ones that favor us. For your very specific battle strategy then sure I can see why you don't think it will be helpful, but I don't think it's a good idea to limit ourselves to needing a very specific strategy to win. Jonin supposedly win by diversifying their builds so they have many strategies if their go-to doesn't work.

- How often has fighting multiple times a day happened to Nara Kei? We are not missing-nin, nor are we sent on hugely lethal missions. And with FOOM the only real threats to us will soon be essies and elite jounin. Regular jounin too, but those will not provoke us on their own. There aren't enough threats to make multiple fights a day a realistic occurence. Besides, that applies to any strategy, not just SC specifically.
- Same point as above. There is little overlap between a lethal fight that needs chakra, and one in which making SCs would be ill-advised, because the moment there is any risk at all, you should pull out all the stops and end it quickly.
- If she is injured that is all the more reason to use SCs, because it leaves her all the more vulnerable, so having body decoys is even more vital.
- That is a very, very specific scenario, not something that should generally be planned for in a build, rather something you just adapt to. I mean, sure, sounds pretty obvious that if there is a hazardous environment that pops SCs immediately you won't be using them but that is an exceedingly minor consideration to have in the overall build direction.
- Fail the Resolve check from making clones for an actual lethal fight? With her Jounin Resolve? Impossible at this point, consequences or not.
- Yes, well, that takes a ton of chakra and will soon be less effective due to FOOM and the combination of debuffs stacking. And does not ever really become more effective, while her personal stats do grow. Summoning as such also leaves her far less safe in the immediate period than having clones do the fighting and slowing the enemy, while also protecting her with substitutions etc.

Its not like I'm proposing a narrow combat strategy. There is a lot of things that can be done with Shadow Clones and Shadow Jutsu combinations, and frankly very few things that cannot. Action Economy is king in practically any combat system and mfd is no exception. And then she also has Summoning and Ranged Weapons (which combo well with binding jutsu), on top of that.
 
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- How often has fighting multiple times a day happened to Nara Kei? We are not missing-nin, nor are we sent on hugely lethal missions. And with FOOM the only real threats to us will soon be essies and elite jounin. Regular jounin too, but those will not provoke us on their own. There aren't enough threats to make multiple fights a day a realistic occurence. Besides, that applies to any strategy, not just SC specifically.
- Same point as above. There is little overlap between a lethal fight that needs chakra, and one in which making SCs would be ill-advised, because the moment there is any risk at all, you should pull out all the stops and end it quickly.
Well by this metric why level her stats at all, she barely fights. Besides the neck trip (which btw she was in fact not full on chakra for due to having Snow out) she hasn't fought anything since... Isan technically, I guess? That one was only Snowflake. Time before that was hundreds of chapters prior with the condor Summoner I think, and she was only bait there. Long story short, there aren't going to be many examples of ANY situation happening to her because she's so rarely in combat at all.

We're prepping for the future. Are you seriously telling me you can never envision these scenarios happening (one of which already did?)


- If she is injured that is all the more reason to use SCs, because it leaves her all the more vulnerable, so having body decoys is even more vital.
Did you even read what I said?
(copied injuries pop Shadow clones instantly)
You literally can't use shadow clone if you have physical consequences, hence why Hazou couldn't FOOM with his Severe.

- Fail the Resolve check from making clones for an actual lethal fight? With her Jounin Resolve? Impossible at this point, consequences or not.
Hmm perhaps, I guess it depends on how many clones you want her to bring out. Even a single-minute clone that gets popped counts as an entire hour for the roll as I recall it.

- That is a very, very specific scenario, not something that should generally be planned for in a build, rather something you just adapt to. I mean, sure, sounds pretty obvious that if there is a hazardous environment that pops SCs immediately you won't be using them but that is an exceedingly minor consideration to have in the overall build direction.
We should be preparing for every scenario we can, that's the whole point. And Vacuum step doesn't need to be capstone or anything. A half costed 20 or 30 would be plenty useful.


- Yes, well, that takes a ton of chakra and will soon be less effective due to FOOM and the combination of debuffs stacking. And does not ever really become more effective, while her personal stats do grow. Summoning as such also leaves her far less safe in the immediate period than having clones do the fighting and slowing the enemy, while also protecting her with substitutions etc.
This is its own discussion worth having I think, but for the pretty immediate future (next year or so) I don't think Kei's clones compete at all. For just 2 clones, they're left with 33 chakra each, barely enough to PKH and substitute for a round. That's pretty bad. Hopefully in the future with CR, Minato Sealing, and biosealing we can get some immaculate reserves but at the moment it's not very economic or tactically sound imo.


Its not like I'm proposing a narrow combat strategy. There is a lot of things that can be done with Shadow Clones and Shadow Jutsu combinations, and frankly very few things that cannot.
Except that, again, shadow clone won't always be a good option (or an option at all.)


Action Economy is king in practically any combat system and mfd is no exception. And then she also has Summoning and Ranged Weapons (which combo well with binding jutsu), on top of that.
I agree with all this, except maybe RW in particular pairing well, I don't think it pairs any better or worse than e.g. Taijutsu.

When everything works out, SC offense is a fine strategy, I think you're just overestimating how frequently it will be viable. Even if it works in like 75% of cases we still need to make sure she's got what she needs for the other 25%. Also, raising Vacuum step to the 20s or 30s is a relatively minor expense in the grand scheme of things for a huge boost in survivability.
 
Nara Clan Ninjutsu

This is a summary of Kei's potential Nara ninjutsu, to be presented to Hazō next time the two meet (unless Hazō dies before then, in which case ignore this post).

Shadow Imitation – You know it, you love it. The user's shadow stretches out to ensnare an opponent's own shadow. If the connection is made, the user can control the opponent's body, making them imitate everything the user does.
Shadow Guardians – A defensive technique that is particularly effective against ranged weapons and in single combat.
Shadow Step – An enhancement to Substitution that hinders enemy movement.
Shadow Betrayal – A moderate debuff that hinders enemy movement.
Shadow Visage – A general-purpose defensive technique.

While she cannot share more details with you (even this much is pushing it), she, as always, defers leveling decisions to you. If you do not give specific instructions, she'll make decisions of her own volition. Please vote in a Kei training plan for this coming cycle spending at least 500 XP into these ninjutsu.

In Kei's opinion, she thinks Shadow Guardians suits her style, Shadow Imitation is generally strong, and Shadow Visage is appealing personally.
Do these benefit from the "half cost for skills below the highest" reduction that elemental jutsu have?
 
I agree with all this, except maybe RW in particular pairing well, I don't think it pairs any better or worse than e.g. Taijutsu.When everything works out, SC offense is a fine strategy, I think you're just overestimating how frequently it will be viable. Even if it works in like 75% of cases we still need to make sure she's got what she needs for the other 25%. Also, raising Vacuum step to the 20s or 30s is a relatively minor expense in the grand scheme of things for a huge boost in survivability.

Binding someone with Shadow Imitation means you can't exactly attack them in melee properly because they copy your movements. Meanwhile you can certainly grab a weapon from a satchel and throw it at them while their own hands throw empty air. And they will be unable to avoid it because you are standing still. And Ranged Weapons tend to have a Weapon Effect, so doing such a thing would often be an instant kill. Furthermore coming close to someone for a Taji attack risks getting the clone doing that popped via some kind of reflexive aoe jutsu, or worse, getting yourself killed if you did that personally, so RWs are much safer in that scenario.

I am not saying we never want to level Vacuum Step, I'm just saying with Kei Prime not being starved for mobility actions its not something that we need to level up high, because the difference between being able to cross 4 Zones in a round and 8 isn't terribly large, there is little overlap in which one gets you out of danger and the other doesn't. While Shadow Step does need to be levelled high (and Substitution scales amazingly).
 
I would prefer the Shadow Imitation jutsu. There might be stunt opportunity with thrown weapon shadows, but even if there is not the ability to shut someone down without having to murder them will be very nice. There's also some light evidence for Shadow Imitation to be a non-primary defense ability, which is to say that a jonin (Ritsuo) lost to a chunnin(?) (Shikamaru). This possibly implies that the defense stat for that isn't something that most jonin level, which would let us get more use out of the ability without having to capstone it.
 
Nara Clan Ninjutsu

This is a summary of Kei's potential Nara ninjutsu, to be presented to Hazō next time the two meet (unless Hazō dies before then, in which case ignore this post).

Shadow Imitation – You know it, you love it. The user's shadow stretches out to ensnare an opponent's own shadow. If the connection is made, the user can control the opponent's body, making them imitate everything the user does.
Shadow Guardians – A defensive technique that is particularly effective against ranged weapons and in single combat.
Shadow Step – An enhancement to Substitution that hinders enemy movement.
Shadow Betrayal – A moderate debuff that hinders enemy movement.
Shadow Visage – A general-purpose defensive technique.

While she cannot share more details with you (even this much is pushing it), she, as always, defers leveling decisions to you. If you do not give specific instructions, she'll make decisions of her own volition. Please vote in a Kei training plan for this coming cycle spending at least 500 XP into these ninjutsu.

In Kei's opinion, she thinks Shadow Guardians suits her style, Shadow Imitation is generally strong, and Shadow Visage is appealing personally.
Does Kei get bonus XP toward them similar to the bonus XP that someone gets for learning an element?
 
Shadow Visage seems very appealing as standalone but does not have much combination potential with the rest.
Worth noting -- as these are parts of the Nara Clan's well-optimized package, all these techniques are meant to synergize with all of the others (to a greater or lesser extent).

Does Kei get bonus XP toward them similar to the bonus XP that someone gets for learning an element?
Yes -- she has paid 500 XP for the stunt and now is being required to put 500 XP toward the element's ninjutsu, just like any other element.
Please vote in a Kei training plan for this coming cycle spending at least 500 XP into these ninjutsu.
 
Worth noting -- as these are parts of the Nara Clan's well-optimized package, all these techniques are meant to synergize with all of the others (to a greater or lesser extent).


Yes -- she has paid 500 XP for the stunt and now is being required to put 500 XP toward the element's ninjutsu, just like any other element.
Gotcha -- wasn't sure if that 500 XP was from her general pool or the other one.
 
Mostly why there aren't more gamebreaking seals and sealmasters. Hazou's done a lot in a little time and part of that could be the voters, another could be main character syndrome, but as far as simulationist, there'd have to be someone to do amazing and weird things with sealing.
When I think of Hazou's great sealing innovations, I think of skywalkers, then skytowers, and to a lesser extent, the skyslicers (wow, does he have a naming theme going on here?). All of those seem conditioned on player creativity more than anything.
Don't try and rock the boat or you die and sealing is set back 100 years or w/e and it's taught to everyone that way.
If the storage seal/topomancy thing was correct, more the other way around -- die and sealing is pushed forward 100 years...

Tbh it was very difficult to know in advance which Declares would be accepted and it's hard to plan robustly enough that the action plan will still work if a key Declare is rejected
This is fair, and our bad. We were all pretty busy in the week leading up to the fight and didn't have the time to vet and approve/disapprove Declares.

Gotcha -- wasn't sure if that 500 XP was from her general pool or the other one.
You can imagine that, like a normal element, 1000 XP was saved up, then 500 was spent on the stunt and 500 on the ninjutsu.
 
Shadow Step – An enhancement to Substitution that hinders enemy movement
I like this one. Sub is bonkers already. Enhancing it is double bonkers. How many levels can 500 CP get us?
You can imagine that, like a normal element, 1000 XP was saved up, then 500 was spent on the stunt and 500 on the ninjutsu
But in this case only 500 XP total were spent and they're being immediately refunded?
 
I like this one. Sub is bonkers already. Enhancing it is double bonkers. How many levels can 500 CP get us?
She has enough to buy level 32. Alternatively we could get 30 levels in this one and 10 in 2 others, or 30 in this one and (nearly) 20 in another (I expect this update will hit the threshold.) 465 to level 30, 155/2 = 77.5 for a half cost level 20.

Edit: bad math, it would be 210/2 = 105, so nix that.
 
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