Assuming that they're on board with listening to Hazo, instead of just adding three more cooks trying to use the same oven. Everyone seems to be making the assumption that a) Minato and Hashirama are still there instead of having moved on and b) that they'll just... go with whatever Hazo wants. Like, we just had a 'other people have feelings and agency' update, can we last a bit longer than a day before forgetting it?
Yes, I am making that assumption, because I believe from the evidence we've been shown that it's likely the assumption will bear true. This was also, in addition to being freeform brainstorming, notably an idea that can and should be re-examined as we progressively narrow down unknowns in the story.

I understand that it can be frustrating to see people look like they have missed the lesson you found important, but I would like it if you didn't jump to the conclusion that I was obviously being stupid and then take your frustrations out on me. You are capable of better than this.
 
Yes, I am making that assumption, because I believe from the evidence we've been shown that it's likely the assumption will bear true. This was also, in addition to being freeform brainstorming, notably an idea that can and should be re-examined as we progressively narrow down unknowns in the story.

I understand that it can be frustrating to see people look like they have missed the lesson you found important, but I would like it if you didn't jump to the conclusion that I was obviously being stupid and then take your frustrations out on me. You are capable of better than this.
What evidence? Hashirama's history never shows any concern with non-ninja, at most desiring a state of peace, not safety. Minato's 'goodness' is more memetic than anything else, we don't really see him doing anything that would give credence to it other than 'loving his wife and kid', and the testimony of Jiraiya who might be a bit biased on this. Finally, seeking to characterise criticisms as 'taking something out on you' is grossly manipulative and I would recommend you stop before the mods turn their gaze on the thread.
 
What evidence? Hashirama's history never shows any concern with non-ninja, at most desiring a state of peace, not safety. Minato's 'goodness' is more memetic than anything else, we don't really see him doing anything that would give credence to it other than 'loving his wife and kid', and the testimony of Jiraiya who might be a bit biased on this. Finally, seeking to characterise criticisms as 'taking something out on you' is grossly manipulative and I would recommend you stop before the mods turn their gaze on the thread.
Your actual criticism was welcome, I appreciated hearing your perspective about how they might introduce more problems than they solve. It was this:
Like, we just had a 'other people have feelings and agency' update, can we last a bit longer than a day before forgetting it?
that I described as taking your frustrations out on me. Note that the criticism is complete at this point, you offering no further analysis of how the plan might go wrong, but only accusing me of immediately forgetting the lesson of the day (in a word, 'being stupid').

Whether that counts as 'taking your frustrations out on me' I suppose I can't rightly say, but it certainly felt that way from my side of things. Rather, my point was that even if you feel frustrated by what you see in the thread (whether that be for sound or unsound reasons), the kind of exasperated accusation you levied at me is unfriendly and unproductive. This is no condemnation, though, as I do know that you are capable of better behaviour than that.

Similarly, I understand how you feel in your response here. Taking that you didn't agree with my position that your accusation was unwarranted, it would indeed look like I was only trying to suppress your critique, which indeed would be a very bad thing for me to do. So I don't bear any ill will for your response here, given the nature of the misunderstanding that seems to be occurring. But I must make clear that I am not doing this bad thing and that I welcome your critiques, both in this post and in the last one. It is only your accusation against my character that I felt was unbecoming. I also know that you did not mean it with ill intentions, but it remains true that I consider it both incorrect and unproductive.

But either way, there's little sense in letting this spiral out into more of a distraction than it already is. If you'd like to continue discussing this in PMs so we can fully clear up any remaining misunderstandings, I'm up for that, but we should probably stop taking up space in the thread with this meta-topic.
 
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I may not be the bigest kei rant tan, but yeah someone had to tell it.
My answer, make a seal that is not dependant on the rift. Once we get the way shredder seal done. Pocket afterlife arrays.
 
I'm def on team slow play the rift and the fact that Jiraiya is back. We should probably research a way to close it before we rescue him
 
I'm def on team slow play the rift and the fact that Jiraiya is back. We should probably research a way to close it before we rescue him
A way to close a rift is also more generally applicable, and something worth sharing with other sealmasters in order to decrease the probability of world-ending blade-terror incursions.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped How has Sealing research progressed? It's not clear to me at what time scale we're operating at on that, since we voted it on doing so on an ad hoc (ie, one I made up, not one that necessarily prescribes to deadlines) vote.
 
"You do not know that!" Kei snapped. "This is your problem in a nutshell, Hazō. You assumed that your original plan for the test was flawless, and so did not bother to consult the person whose duty it is to find flaws in your plans. You then decided that your ability to cope with the consequences of your failure was so great that seeking a second opinion from the uninitiated would be actively detrimental. You do not know what I could have done for you, before or after the disaster. You do not know what Snowflake, who shares all of my feelings on this matter, and whom you owe an entirely separate apology, could have done. We do not know, since we are operating almost entirely on inference and have taken pains not to acquire any information that would cost us plausible deniability, save that our aid could only have been an improvement on the present state of affairs.

"Even at the last moment, had you spoken to me instead of Shikamaru, is it truly so implausible that I could have optimised your presentation to at least increase the odds of keeping Akane safe?"
Hmm, what does that remind me of... Oh, right:
"I remain confused," Kei said with the neutrality demanded by Clear Communication. "It was my premeditated decision to inflict grave injury upon the clan to which I owed loyalty. Given the immutability of that decision, which you have acknowledged, what would the benefit of cooperation have been?"

"We don't know," Hazō said. "That's part of my point. It's impossible to predict the consequences of an attempt to look for mutually beneficial solutions without actually making that attempt. For us to know whether such solutions existed would only be possible if you trusted us enough to find out together. It seems to me as if you cut off your options in advance until you were left with only one visible path."

"I accept your point," Kei said reluctantly.
Hah.
"I'm not going to commit suicide," Hazō insisted. "That would be insane. I know that if the seal doesn't work, or if seals don't work in the afterlife at all, or if I lose it in the process of getting back to the rift from wherever I end up, I might be trapped there until I'm forgotten, or whatever else is a danger to dead souls."

"I would ensure you were not forgotten," Kei said dismissively.

She froze.

"I mean, not that you should take this as incentive! I merely mean in the hypothetical where—no, Hazō, please forget I said anything and proceed to whatever less distressing topic you originally intended to introduce."
Aww.
"On reflection, perhaps you are owed an apology. While I maintain that my privacy is essential, and may on occasion need to be protected with lethal force, and that your invasion of it at the time was shameless and unjustified, perhaps a more appropriate response in that specific instance would have been a stern lecture rather than immediately resorting to cruel and unusual punishment. You are correct, Hazō—I acted immaturely. I apologise."
"I would not actually have tortured you, Hazō," Kei said.
Oh hey, this probably retroactively wins me some past arguments that I don't even remember now.
technically place it under Ami's control, since it is she who administers AMITY matters not under the purview of any given member
She what.
If I may be frank, your assertion that research is proceeding smoothly terrifies me.
Oh hey, a sentiment some of us may find personally relatable to their daily life!
Both hells, hot and cold.

Claim it wasn't a big deal? There was no way that would work. He'd get told either that of course it was or that it wasn't for him to judge what Kei considered a big deal.

Claim he didn't want more people than necessary to know? No, mentioning Ino had scuppered that (and not mentioning her would have been even worse if Kei ever decided to follow up on this with Naruto).

Claim he wanted to wait until it was verified? No, then he should have gone to her as soon as he decided he wasn't going to get any more information (in other words, once he gave up on trying to replicate the ritual, which was very quickly, since being aura-blasted by Mari over and over sounded like a great way to end up a quivering wreck or comatose).

Claim—
On the third hand, Hazō and Kei had just reconciled, and Hazō couldn't bear to ruin that so quickly by reminding her that he was the one who kept neglecting to make her part of the process.
So, I think the mindset with which Hazou is approaching the interaction is unhealthy, here. He's viewing it in terms of management, and tries to optimize Kei's mental state to minimize conflict. In the course of doing so, he lets himself consider the possibilities where he omits information, tactically reframes it, misrepresents, or lies — in short, manipulates.

A healthy approach is to communicate truthfully, and let the relationship take whatever hits it may, but settle into a natural configuration in which both parties have accurate models of each other. If the bond is real, it'll persevere and grow stronger for it — inasmuch as you'll also express your regret at making a mistake and make an emotionally-compelling argument for avoiding this mistake in the future, in the course of communicating the truth.

Hazou does, in fact, handle Quote 1 correctly after the break, so it's not a glaring issue. But, well, it's something I've noticed here; and it's something that created a proto-problem with Ami at one point: her takeaway from one of her interactions with Hazou was that he thought the Final Gift Program was monstrous, yet never confronted Ami about creating it, which (she reasoned) meant he didn't think it important to communicate his true feelings about her to her, and therefore didn't feel that she was family, and instead viewed her only as an ally with whom he needs to interact only in a calculated way that cultivates the relationship, instead of seeking true connection.

Anyway, the point of all this overly subtle analysis is that this is a potential future Kei Tantrum, and I'd like to get ahead on steelmanning it.
 
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So as a minimum of precaution(s) that I don't know if anyone's mentioned yet, while the Rift is open I suggest we:
  • have Leaf shinobi on watch to look like a guard post (and warn anyone we actually want going through)
  • string up some of those invisible spidersilk strands all the heck over it
  • no substitution targets in view from the portal (in case someone retains their chakra and tries to jump through without setting off any of our traps
    • maybe have targets, but they're all trapped
  • a bunch of Kagome-approved traps in the entrance hallway (hopefully not even an S-rank ninja would be able to dodge them when we know exactly where they'll be going, unless they're Minato fast or retain enough chakra to blow up the entry hallway I dunno)
  • don't bring any trap-defusal tools through the rift (perhaps even up to and including explosives, gasp)
  • Are 5 seal barriers transparent? If we can make one that's wider than the rift, it won't be visible, so we can both block it off and do the spidersilk trap and regular traps at the same time, and leave a slight gap so that people can throw explosives/jutsu through too
    • I hope the spidersilk wires can withstand explosives, have we tested that?
  • Have the seals keeping the rift open destroyed in the event of a breach
  • Have decoy/fake seals (some in storage?) that look like they might be keeping the rift open, but are actually traps on the level of Minato's poetry code
  • Build a fort with stone walls and mechanical traps around the other side of the rift maybe? but then we might have to man it and that might be a pain
  • Have a contingency to nuke the site if necessary (with conventional explosives, not the EM nuke, but we can EM nuke it if conventional explosives fail)

So those are my ideas for defending against attack from the afterlife, but we also need to defend against attacks from the living world.
 
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This is def a no go. We want to keep this secret for as long as possible. Cutting anyone else in is unnecessary risk

The Hokage knows about the rift. We will have non-Goketsu shinobi watching it whether we want them to or not. Also, we need someone there to disarm the traps so the people we want to enter can get through.

At the very least we should have everyone remove their identifying symbols/headbands when in view of the rift, as obvious who's running the fort may be to an outside observer.
 
We have an easy solution for all the nations that would try to take the Rift away from us. It's often literally within reach. And in the breakdown of global communication and other disasters that would ensure in the aftermath of deploying said solution, I'm sure the Akatsuki would have neither the information, nor the time to go look at what we're doing on some random island in the middle of nowhere.

There, solved!

There are no "problems" or "crises", there are only solutions ahead of their time, longing wistfully for their yet-unborn counterpart.
 
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Have I mentioned that Kei is great?
Wait I have?
Oh.

...it's still true tho.

It is always like this, Hazō. You find some new way to hurt me, and then you apologise, and present some compelling argument that you have learned your lesson, and I forgive you until the next cycle.
While I've been very clearly on team Kei with regards to having handled things differently, I totally buy that if you bought in to the arguments that drove the winning plan, then going to Shikamaru first as we did was a natural choice. So Kei's stance here doesn't find much purchase, frankly.

"On reflection, perhaps you are owed an apology. While I maintain that my privacy is essential, and may on occasion need to be protected with lethal force, and that your invasion of it at the time was shameless and unjustified, perhaps a more appropriate response in that specific instance would have been a stern lecture rather than immediately resorting to cruel and unusual punishment. You are correct, Hazō—I acted immaturely. I apologise."
Eyy personal growth.
 
the two parts of Kei and Snowflake's speech in combination was well beyond Hazō's gambit of "For the greater good, please don't ask about this".
wat? how?
Why hadn't Shikamaru tried to offer something like this?
Cuz we didn't tell him the info he needs
"This is why normal clans have councils of elders,"
Elder equal civvies?
I couldn't communicate with him or anything, and for some reason it seems like it was only a one-time deal

since being aura-blasted by Mari over and over sounded like a great way to end up a quivering wreck or comatose
Not trying hard enough
if Jiraiya is truly to be found there with his original appearance and identity—both hypotheses dubious and loosely supported at best—then this Pure Land seems a more plausible candidate."
If jiraiya no naraka, hazou no naraka thankfully
Oooh. Seal still have
Ami could certainly arrange it
Revival -> chaos -> definitely need Ami
Please do not betray my trust in this matter.
Damnit. Well maybe we can convince her to loop shika in
sanity checks were sufficient and rendered mine redundant
Huh that is one area we actually should use kei more in
Hazō really, really hoped following in Orochimaru's mental footsteps wasn't going to turn Noburi evil.
Noburi building roads might be consequentially inefficient for uplift. But hands on helping might protect his soul from forgetting the end goal
 
A couple of topics spring to mind after the Kei conversation. I don't know if her solution was good or not because I didn't think about that part. My read-through of that chapter was with the "character emotions" lens since that's my priority, not "practical solutions" lens. That said, let's assume she had a better solution. If so, there's a weird thing for me in terms of gameplay in that she'd be offering a new solution on her own instead of optimizing our ideas...

About Narrative & Meta Stuff: Kei says "hey, you should've come to me because I could've created an alternate solution for you to consider". If Kei gave us that option at that time though, that's the QMs basically giving us good answers to the problem. If that would've worked then that's fine, but I feel like the meta and atmosphere of the quest changes if we're given solutions freely. Especially if we're allowed to keep doing that. The situation will eventually have to change so we can't keep using the "Ask an Expert" lifeline (ex. in a combat crisis, the party is forcibly split by mechanisms we're not allowed to interrupt like with the caves. For social problems, Kei or Mari end up acting erratically so it's less comfortable to just ask them). Otherwise we'd just keep doing that.

I perceive a balance in my head about game balance here. On the left, you have "Think for Yourselves, Players". On the right you have "Rational Simulation + Do Whatever is Optimal". We will naturally tend to the right because that's optimal. The experts will usually be smarter than us when it comes to details or socials because they live in that world 24/7 and we don't - that's their field of strength, not ours. Also, Kei is just straight up smarter than us, and is written by QMs who are really flippin' smart. That said, if we keep using Ask an Expert, things will change so we can't do this as much because that's not fun. Eventually we'll be forced left side of this scale. Currently I feel like we didn't talk to Kei in so long about anything story-changing. We stayed really heavily on the left side of the scale meta-wise with her. Frustrated, Kei says "Use Me!" When we talk to her, she gives a wholeeeee bunch of free information about what'll happen with necromancy. This pushes things back to the right side of scale to incentivize us to use "Ask an Expert" again. If we do that too much, though...

I don't recall reading this topic because I skim discussion when I'm away, but I'm sure this has been a topic of discussion many times. Please bear with me though, because I don't know the answer everyone decided on and I want to know what it is. Consider the following situation:

1) Crisis occurs. The best idea as the leader is to say "Mari, Kei. My goal in navigating this crisis is to have X outcome. Thoughts on best solutions to get there?" Even if you have your own solution, this is the smartest thing to do first because crowd-thinking is good and Kei in particular is really smart. This outsources the thinking component to the QMs. Obviously this is bad for a quest.

Looking at the phrasing always being thrown around though, I see Kei is usually referred to as a Plan Optimizer. I'm guessing what happened is early into the quest, this problem became apparent so the gameplay idea became "Players comes up with long-term ideas, Kei/Mari (QMs) point out what could go wrong, Players decide what to change or whether to persist." This balance is probably always re-adjusting. If this is the meta that's fine, however in this context Kei saying "Let me come up with alternate ideas" felt weird. Was what Kei said legit from a gameplay perspective? If we asked her back then, would she have offered this plan? (Again, no comments on whether the plan works or not).

And a more general question. When this discussion occurred before (because I'm sure it has), what was the conclusion about "Ask an Expert"?

Disclaimer: I don't post often so I'm an unknown. CCnJ on my thoughts for context: This quest is awesome, the players are amazing, the QMs are fantastic. I'm an idiot so bear with me, this is a genuine question about game balance. How does "Ask an Expect" work?

About Kei and Player Rapport with the MfD Cast: IRL, I use the concept of rapport a lot. I think it applies very well to stories, too. One of my strongest metrics I use to decide how much I like a character is "How did this character make me feel?" Once I feel sufficiently positive about a character a rapport is established, and then I'm invested in them through thick-and-thin. If they start acting negatively, a good rapport shields that and I'll look past it because they're in my monkey-sphere. If someone makes you feel too bad for too long, then rapport breaks and you decide "why bother". Without rapport, the positives of a character become muted and the negatives become enhanced (often unfairly so).

I notice from reading posts that people seem to have different levels of rapport with Kei. Given her personality, I can absolutely see why opinions on her might vary. My own opinion on her was fluctuating on a strong back-and-forth throughout this chapter.

I current am feeling really positively inclined towards her. With all of her context and history, the way I ended up perceiving her at the end of this chapter was our sister saying "Please just talk to me more! I'm feeling hurt and maybe I'm fucking up too and if I am sorry. Let's be a stronger pair again!" She didn't come off as too unreasonable, just hurt and wanting to talk more. And she really gave off vibes that she's unequivocally on our side, no bullshit.

Course, the big problem is Mari. The toxic Mari-Kei relationship is what was fucking up everything. My stance on it is that Kei should at the least, be civil. Quit the negativity and learn to manage that internal Emotional Damage™. When you're feeling hurt, just say that you're feeling hurt but don't be an asshole about it. I think Mari was doing fine in that respect (unless that's just my Mari bias).

For the sake of fun, I'm going to share my un-asked for current rapport levels with characters as a reader. I wonder which of my opinions differ from the majority, and in what direction? Hazou doesn't count for obvious reasons.

Noburi: High rapport. I feel like we neglect him in terms of seeing him in plans, which makes me feel guilty. Despite that, every time we do see him it's like he doesn't give a fuck about that. He's always stable and chill. It got called out in this update that he's the guy that's genuinely just never causing any headaches. It's kind of funny because he was always starting shit at the beginning of the quest. I feel relaxed when I see him on-screen.

Kei: Mid-High rapport. Reminds me of some IRL friends/family that are great in many respects, but having narrow perspective really screws them over sometimes. She's trying her best, though, and the Hazou interactions still feel like a step in the right direction despite all the consistent mess-ups that occur along the way. Loved the feel of this last chapter, on balance. Hate her Mari interactions, though. I usually get anticipatory feelings for what's coming next when she's on screen.

Snowflake: High rapport. All the fantastic-ness of Kei with none of the Mari toxicity. I feel like every recent scene she's in is cute or makes me smile. I ship it

Mari: High rapport. She straight up mentioned torturing people and doing horrible things and I still didn't bat an eye. Something about the direction of her character arc was perfect from my perspective. I don't even know what it is, but whatever it was established a really strong rapport. As expected of the social spec, I suppose. My favourite character by a landslide. Consistently makes me feel interested or positive when she's on-screen.

Kagome: High rapport. I honestly kind of ignored him for most of the beginning and middle of the story (other than as a source of comedy with his whole... Kagome-ness), but in the latest 1/3rd of the story I felt like he shines whenever he shows up. He has those crazy uncle vibes, but that latest (non-canon?) confrontation with Ritsuo was hair-raising. So now the crazy uncle vibes are tempered with hidden badass vibes.

Akane: Low rapport. Surprisingly, I've almost never felt positive about her character. She's the bright one in theory, but in practice she's either feeling strong negative feelings, or feeling neutral-warm feelings that I suspect are a mask for her negative feelings. Her issues are never really resolved, so you know at her core she's not going to be happy. I usually don't feel anything when she's on screen. When she's depressed, I just feel sad.

Jiraiya: Medium rapport. Was definitely cool and interesting when he was around, I just think he didn't have enough time for that to develop further for me.

Yuno: High rapport. Heckin' love her after that marriage counselling chapter and the last few fights she came out to. Love every scene she's in. I love how she fights to understand a culture that's completely alien to her in such an endearing and realistic way. I also love how that's emotionally balanced with her Yuno-ness.

Orochimaru: Is rapport even allowed with this guy? He creeps me the hell out, but man is he a fantastic character. I'm always interested when he's on-screen, that's for sure. I just don't feel safe if he's getting extra screen-time, lol.

Tsunade: Medium rapport. She's cool and I'm always interested in when she's on screen, much like the other Sannin. Only limited by the screen-time because of the direction of our player choices. Unlike Orochimaru, though, I'd actually want her to get more screen time.

Ami: No rapport. It never really got established for me, but then her actions progressed as if the rapport was there which I took negatively. I probably just can't keep up with hyper-genius thinking. Historically made me feel very wary or nervous whenever she was on-screen. The last dance thing was more positive, so I guess I'm tentatively neutral there. I don't necessarily like reading her directly, but I like it when people analyze some of the little social-spec things that she does. RandomOTP often has really interesting interpretations about her.

Ino: High rapport. Her conversation topics are either positive in theme, or if conversation is heavy it's always handled with good framing. Feels stable. Tends to make me feel relaxed.

Shikamaru: Mid-High rapport. Seems like a cool guy who often just Doesn't Have Time For This Shit™. Didn't have a magic solution for the latest problem, but that's life. I appreciate the level-headedness. Makes me feel relaxed.

Asuma: Medium rapport. I actually love this guy when he's on-screen. The only reason it's Medium and not High is because I have to emotionally distance myself from him just in-case he messes with the team with this new situation. I wouldn't even blame him for doing what he thinks is best given his situation and everything. But he seems as chill as a Hokage could be, given his job. If you tell me he studied at that Fire Temple with the monks in MfD verse as he did in Kishimoto canon, I would 100% believe it. Makes me feel relaxed.

Naruto: Medium rapport. I kinda like his style even though he hates our guts half the time. I'm usually interested in what's he's thinking when he's on-screen because of his Kishimoto protagonist status, though.

Haru: High rapport. I ironically like him as a character even as he sticks to his guns of not liking us, lol. Didn't expect it, but he feels honest in his own way. Ironically training for spymaster role. Recently, I feel generally interested when he's on-screen.
 
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Everyone seems to be making the assumption that a) Minato and Hashirama are still there instead of having moved on and b) that they'll just... go with whatever Hazo wants.
I, for one, am not.

No one comes out of the Rift without having pledged loyalty to us first. Second, they demonstrate this loyalty by partaking in a comprehensive debrief, handing over any and all knowledge they have which could be useful to us. Jiraiya is not exempt.

You have to pay the ferryman.

Honestly it might be easier to just take the hat.
We should probably research a way to close it before we rescue him
We should ask Kagome if he thinks it'll close like normal after we open it. If so, this becomes fairly straightforward - we just have to wait. There are some associated problems but I think we can solve them all pretty easily, especially if we have enough Mednin/know to keep people unconscious for a few days.
 
Promising.
(Shimura? Double Shimura?)
Shimura-née-Shimura.
"Not at all," Ruri said. "We were just finishing up. We can discuss the Kei investments at tonight's KEI meeting."
Ami's investments? Have to run, had an appointment with looking at a summoning scroll.
"Of course, Kei," Kei said. "Please give Lady Kei my regards."

"With pleasure, Lady Kei. Good day to you both."
Hah. Kei's nearest neighbor woes.
Nara Kei—a sociable, affectionate Academy student who possesses countless virtues I lacked during my own childhood years and indeed still do.
Too young to be one of our genin, sad face.
"Not that you are blameless yourself, if Akane's reports are to be believed. Are there not already two infant Gōketsu Hazōs at the estate, as well as a Gōketsu Hazuki and a most unfortunate Gōketsu Hazuo?"
Yuno at every baby shower. "You should name him Noburi."
"If you are here to consult Shikamaru, I am afraid he is presently napping, and interrupting a Nara's nap would be an act of naked aggression akin to stealing an Akimichi's food or tearing a Hagoromo's manuscript. If you wish, I can arrange an appointment before you leave."
But the fact is he was napping, napping at my chamber door,
On the morrow he will leave me, as my Hopes have flown before.
Quoth the Nara "Nevermore."
Still, one didn't turn down the opportunity to speak freely without fear of being executed just because one, say, accidentally proposed having Orochimaru overthrow the Hokage.
So many stories to astound the grand kids.
Kei sighed with a familiar expression of disappointment. "Hazō, I am Shikamaru's wife, second-in-command, and confidante. He and I have spent countless nights discussing the ways in which we might use our influence to steer the Hokage towards better long-term decisions and away from tempting but catastrophic ones, as the Nara have for as long as there have been Hokage to steer. If you had asked me, I would have informed you that this was not a card available to us yet this generation. But I suppose by then you had already decided not to trust me."
Very interested in digging into this. Problem of being a good confidante is no way of knowing from the outside. Only Shikamaru could have cut us in on how trusted Kei is or how much of her perspective was integrated in his conclusions.
"Sir, I wish to inform you that the recent phenomenon was caused by a Gōketsu Clan experiment. Unfortunately, the completely unexpected scale and destructiveness of the effect indicate that we were gravely mistaken in believing we understood the mechanisms involved. Having reviewed the data, it is my judgement as Leaf's leading weapons developer and unconventional warfare expert that further research could pose a danger to Leaf, its shinobi, and/or the Fire Country at large. As such, I have officially terminated it and marked all relevant materials classified. I would like to humbly apologise for conducting this experiment without coordination with the Tower, a mistake I will not make again, and I will of course provide whatever compensation you consider necessary for damage to Fire Country territory and its population."
Questing is cruel. Cannot go to Kei for all the answers or where is the challenge? Still better to start consulting her more from now on. Good speech. Earns respect even if Asuma pulls out all the details.
"As a positive effect of this disaster," Kei said to the imaginary Asuma, "we have identified a capability in the hands of a non-Leaf faction which, with sufficient development, could trigger similar effects. We can expect that anyone who decides to research it will meet with equally disastrous results—indeed, worse, since as a sealmaster clan of the Kagome lineage, we pride ourselves on our extreme safety precautions. Thus, I believe it is incumbent on Leaf to ensure this capability does not proliferate, especially as Leaf is now likely to be blamed for any further incidents, with the only people capable of exonerating us bound to have perished during the experiment. The Gōketsu will, of course, provide all the information necessary to identify this capability and its users, and will assist in preventing its proliferation in whatever way the Tower deems appropriate."
Could lead to weaker nonproliferation measures, but buys time to work on necromancy. Carefully prepared speeches like this feel more like hitting a lowered TN than opposing rolls. Blueprint for engaging with higher social opponents.
It wasn't foolproof—on being told about Elemental Mastery, Asuma could still say, "Is that how the Gōketsu did it?", and then Hazō would be back on the defensive—but he had to admit that the amount of wriggle room offered by the two parts of Kei and Snowflake's speech in combination was well beyond Hazō's gambit of "For the greater good, please don't ask about this". The question remained: could he have protected Akane if Kei had offered some crude version of this at the time, and then he'd refined it with his own Mari-trained powers of misdirection? Could he have saved the world from Asuma's ambitions?
Solid maybe.
For the honour of the ancestors in the depths, Hazō, use me.
Kei Akane Mari. Use, do not use, yeah right.
"I'm sorry," Hazō repeated. "I promise you I will do better. I know I have major blind spots. I don't check with Asuma before doing things either, I don't take adequate account of my social and political weaknesses or do enough to address them, and the same goes for my level of connection to this village in which I supposedly live. I feel like even Ami has deeper roots here in some ways, with her visible and invisible networks of connections. I know this is a blind spot too, and as my sister and one of the people who's helped me shape Uplift into what it is, you deserve better in ways that those other people and institutions don't. I hope that if there are other blind spots, you will help me find them and fix them."
Heartwarming.
"I shall spare you the itemised list on this occasion."
Post story montage.
"On reflection, perhaps you are owed an apology. While I maintain that my privacy is essential, and may on occasion need to be protected with lethal force, and that your invasion of it at the time was shameless and unjustified, perhaps a more appropriate response in that specific instance would have been a stern lecture rather than immediately resorting to cruel and unusual punishment. You are correct, Hazō—I acted immaturely. I apologise."
A+ character growth.
"Please do not misunderstand," Kei added to break the awkward silence. "Threats of lethal violence are an essential tool for handling recalcitrant younger siblings. This is a truth universally acknowledged in both Mist and Leaf, and I do not intend to deny it simply because I have wielded said tool inappropriately at one or more points in the past. I am simply… admitting that I was at fault in that specific incident, and perhaps making a commitment to be more judicious in my application of intimidation in the future."
Important info to learn 3 years into having an older sister. Points for making it this far blind.
Hazō, the Sage did not grant humanity the gift of universal language
The Sage, eh?
domesticated chakra boars?
Chakra farm?
"Hazō," Kei said, no longer smiling, "if your plan involves committing suicide on anything less than a 100% chance of revival—no, even if it involves committing suicide on a 100% chance of revival, in your judgement which has just proven so stellar in terms of risk assessment—then I hereby veto it absolutely. While I recognise that it is not within my power to actually prevent you from committing suicide should you so desire, be aware as disincentive that if you do, I will impose consequences for you to suffer upon your hypothetical safe return, beginning with laws to eliminate the rights of those declared deceased and continuing to the full extent of Ami's creativity."
Pocket Jiraiya is better than any suicide plan, but if time is running out makes sense to have plans to make the most out of dying. Get the villain monologuing.
"I would ensure you were not forgotten," Kei said dismissively.

She froze.
To see the thoughts that flashed through her mind here.
Claim he wanted to wait until it was verified? No, then he should have gone to her as soon as he decided he wasn't going to get any more information (in other words, once he gave up on trying to replicate the ritual, which was very quickly, since being aura-blasted by Mari over and over sounded like a great way to end up a quivering wreck or comatose).
Hard spot. No way to ask to be taken seriously without conceding the information was important to share. Hard to keep track of who has been told what or what rises to needing a vote to be shared.
"I... I do not understand." Kei's voice trembled. "Did I fail to grieve correctly? Should I have cried as I did when my grandfather passed away? Is the anger I feel at Jiraiya's loss so inhuman that it comes across as apathy?"
Shadow of her parents' upbringing? Sad to have this be her first guess.
"Kei, I really—"

"Go!"

Hazō went.
Impressive she waited so long to kick him out after the tears started. Progress.
Hazō couldn't think, on reflection, why he hadn't shared the information with Akane, Kagome, or Kei.
Worse if Mari has since shared with Akane and Kagome.
Hazō: Alertness 33 + 6 = 39 vs TN 30
Success.
Praise Jashin.
"On the contrary," she said. "If I have misled you into believing that Jiraiya's fate is not personally meaningful to me, that is no more than a product of my stunted capacity for emotional self-expression. It would be unreasonable to condemn you for placing me in the same category as Kagome when it comes to non-essential information about my stepfather."

Gah.
Gah.
"My analysis is my way to contribute value and delay the inevitable. My bonds with the very few people who are Safe are my morsels of happiness, as are my escapist hobbies. My mortal terror... well, you have been a victim of my emotions running out of control more than any man living."
Great section and all the parts building up to this.
"As I feared," Kei said. "Hazō, while I may be furious with Jiraiya for his betrayal, with a human complexity which I have apparently utterly failed to indicate despite in fact being human, I do not actually believe he belongs in Naraka—the hell reserved for the vilest sinners—as your choice of terminology has implied to Akane. Nor am I convinced by Shikamaru's Will of Fire thesis. Accordingly, I called in a favour from a KEI theologian, who spent some time in discussion with the Hagoromo. According to their allegedly Sage-given lore, the souls of the newly-deceased first travel to the so-called Pure or Purifying Land, a heaven of respite where they are cleansed of the mortal bonds and burdens that cannot follow them on the journey of transmigration. Only once this purification is complete do they move on to their next destination among the Six Paths. If the place beyond the rift is truly the afterlife, and if Jiraiya is truly to be found there with his original appearance and identity—both hypotheses dubious and loosely supported at best—then this Pure Land seems a more plausible candidate."
Need more Pure Land lore. Filter for sources that match what we saw. So far, have thought better to think of the portal as a parasite that has stolen souls from the true afterlife.
"Allow me to first set aside the first and most obvious category of unknown unknowns with which I am less qualified to deal. Let us assume that the rift ever led to the afterlife, and will once more lead to the afterlife when reopened. Let us assume the other side does not contain monsters, powerful chakra beasts, inimical supernatural beings, or other threats of that order which could invade the Human Path. For that matter, we should include alien disease spirits against which we have no protective rituals, invasive plant or animal species that can alter the natural world on which we depend for our survival, and poisons which may spread from the island site by air or sea. Let us assume that the unprecedented act of manually wrenching a closed rift open does not harm the fabric of the Human Path or the afterlife in any way, and nor does forcibly stabilising that rift for an extended period of time—an element central to your research, I trust, since there is no guarantee that if the rift closes again with you on the other side, the same means will be efficacious in opening it a third time. Let us assume, finally, that Jiraiya is there, that it is possible to find him before he moves on despite a total lack of information on his location or the geography of the afterlife, that he is both able and willing to seek return, and that a deceased person will become alive again upon re-entering the Human Path (as opposed to, say, being forcibly returned to the Pure Land or having their soul disintegrate). Finally, let us assume that you encounter him and not, say, Captain Zabuza, or any other force that will compel you to surrender the rift's secrets so they may take control of their own and their allies' resurrection. In short, let us assume that the rift and the other side will function in exact accordance with your wishes and expectations, as matters in life ever do.
Probably will be chakra seeking threats. Afterlife 'immune system.' Rescuing Jiraiya with one reopening is optimistic.
"This granted, allow me to treat the various types of failure mode as independent, although, of course, they will be simultaneous and the second-order effects of their interplay will be complex and staggering. First, for the Gōketsu. Jiraiya would, naturally, take control as clan lord. Your rule has been mixed, shall we say, while he is a veteran statesman with a decades-long record of success. He would not be so irresponsible as to leave his people's welfare in the hands of a junior, much less place his vast power directly under your control. You would naturally lose all the agency to which you have grown accustomed, your role reduced to advisory and executive after the fashion of Noburi or myself, and I may remind you that Jiraiya was not of Uplift. He was coming to express an interest in it, in terms of benefiting Leaf by better leveraging its civilians, but he was ultimately a man in his fifties who had spent his life in a Leaf prospering under the Third's stable, moderate regime. He did not propose or conduct any bold social experiments then, and the KEI is as much his legacy as anyone's, insofar as he did not lift a finger to save his clanless brethren, for all his power and influence. I have power now, Hazō, if complex and qualified, and it leads me to respect Jiraiya less and less as I come to comprehend just how much he could have accomplished with his and did not.
"Afterlife portal, Gaku!" "Yes sir, now about the finances."
"Speaking of the Hokage... I hope you appreciate that your control of the rift would last only until the first expeditionary team encountered the first human. If the rift is proved as a potential source of 'new' Leaf shinobi, or shinobi willing to be recruited to Leaf's banner, it must be under the Hokage's direct control. If it is a potential source of hostile shinobi, Kage-level at worst, it must certainly be under the Hokage's direct control. If there are other parties with whom Leaf may negotiate for advantage in an unknown world, again, you are not the person to whose judgement such weighty matters should be entrusted. I assume that from that point, any exploration would be conducted by the most trusted, competent, and, of course, discreet shinobi available to the Hokage, while you would be expected to return to your own specialisations, such as research and development.
Depending how fast they purify, could be more people in the Pure Lands than the EN. Protect the secret long enough, no one else has a chance.
"Meanwhile, once the existence of the rift became known to the clan heads, as it would need to be with Jiraiya's return and the regular recruitment of their members for expeditions, there would be a competition of unprecedented ferocity over who should be rescued next—for obviously Leaf's expeditionary resources are limited, and traffic to and from the site needs to be limited also. Every clan head would demand that their fallen take priority, and exert the full extent of their influence to ensure that their parents and siblings, their heroes and their masters capable of expanding the clan's temporal power, come first. Or do you believe you are the only one willing to cross lines and embrace extremes to resurrect a loved one? Needless to say, I intend to participate fully in this competition, for Leaf's clanless deserve a second life no less than anyone else—arguably more, since their first lives would on average have been shorter and worse—while the Gōketsu would be all but irrelevant with no more prominent figures of their own to rescue. The damage to Leaf's unity and stability would be... honestly, beyond my power to estimate.
Fun to imagine bringing back Jiraiya unconscious for OPSEC. Sneak into Tsunade's house and leave him to wake up in her bed with a hangover. No one is on board with closing the portal permanently after fishing out Jiraiya. Difficult decisions ahead.
"Now, let us expand our scope again to consider events in the outside world as Leaf tears itself apart. It would be impractical, realistically unviable, and counter-productive for Leaf to attempt to conceal Jiraiya's return. Much of his value is as a diplomat and as a military deterrent. Nor would it be plausible to pretend he was alive from the beginning, between the survivors' testimonies, his absence during Leaf's recent crises, and the fact that there was no conceivable reason to keep his survival secret even from the Tower's own shinobi.

"As soon as Leaf's capability for resurrection was discovered, even if Leaf itself claimed it could not be replicated, it would be swarmed with spies and with demands for explanation. Every other nation would be terrified of Leaf resurrecting more Hokage, and rightly so, I regret to say. Do you believe the existence of the rift could be concealed for long, considering that Akatsuki were present when it first opened, that it would be the focus of the greatest political struggle in Leaf's history, and that it lies far closer to Mist than to Leaf?
Once it is open, might not be too hard to punch a second rift closer to home. As for Akatsuki, good cover for people we revive. Not unusual for Akatsuki to have internal struggles. Work with Asuma to secretly kill all Akatsuki members, replace them with Leaf's best departed. Hidden second hand controlling AMITY.
"I need not belabour the point from there. The most realistic scenario is that Akatsuki would claim the rift, formally on behalf of AMITY should they desire that fig leaf, and test if Leaf can defend it in the distant land of O'Uzu. They are already aware of it, and we only assume that they have not been researching it themselves. Once it is brought to their attention that it can be used to resurrect Pain, to whom they were fanatically, and, per your speculations, in some cases romantically devoted, no power on this Path will stop them. And if you are capable of finding and retrieving Jiraiya, they are certainly capable of finding and retrieving Pain.
Would be super interesting to find Pain in the afterlife to talk to him one 'dead man' to another. But doubt he is in 'normal' circumstances.
"These are the key points which capture my imagination, Hazō. If you desire others, Shikamaru and I have a bulging folder. If I may be frank, your assertion that research is proceeding smoothly terrifies me. Still, you have come to me to seek advice, and therein lies a seed of hope that you will give these issues serious consideration, and refrain from triggering this possible apocalypse until you find solutions that satisfy you and, with my aid, polish them into solutions that satisfy Leaf's finest realists as well."
Nice to have something we can somewhat openly work together with smart people on.
"Not if you wish to retain his respect when he asks about the aforesaid and you have nothing to offer him. If he asks me, I shall inform him that your latest progress report was positive but ambiguous, which it is to a layperson like myself, and that we discussed the matter of consequences and you promised to consider it further, which should be vague enough to satisfy my duty to both parties. Please do not betray my trust in this matter."
More notes for what kind of lying passes under the radar.
Hazō was torn. On the one hand, Mari had never said that, and having Kei believe it would only make things worse. On the other... it wasn't like she'd ever said, "I think X, but you should check with Kei as well in case she disagrees"—at least not in matters that didn't directly affect Kei, and sometimes even then.

On the third hand, Hazō and Kei had just reconciled, and Hazō couldn't bear to ruin that so quickly by reminding her that he was the one who kept neglecting to make her part of the process.
There should be a Nara hand sign for this. *Scholarly disagreement deferred to not ruin the moment?*
"No, it is a reasonable question," Kei said. "I, too, once believed that, as our preposterous love square was clearly the work of kami overdosing on Icha Icha, it would linger without meaningful development for volume after volume until Jira- the author finally recalled its existence and scraped together some unsatisfying resolution so as to create room for a more interesting new plotline. I could not have imagined that... No, forgive me, Hazō. I have embarrassed myself as much as I can bear for one day. I shall narrate that sorry tale another time."
Did Shiori rebound with the Anko polycule?
"Fair enough," Hazō said. "In that case, I think it's time for me to bow out. Enjoy your Kei discussions at the KEI meeting, Lady Kei."

"Enjoy your batrachian briefing, Hazuo."
Hah. Easy GED money. Hazuo, your sacrifice is remembered. So many different kinds of briefing at the Conclave.
Leaf's next rising star of medicine/ninjutsu/summoning looked up from the table over which he was poring over some scrolls by candlelight.
Be careful with the love, Narrator in Noburi's room.
The sizeable axe blade-shaped dent in one of the barrier-grade granite walls was probably unrelated, and Hazō decided he didn't have the energy to poke his nose where it didn't belong.
Yuno takes issue with that.
"Just doing my homework," Noburi said. "Did you know Orochimaru once peeled all the skin off a missing-nin and then glued it back on inside out to see if it would keep its protective properties?"
Wasteful. Orochimaru notes readers not getting a balanced education. "Why do you know what temperature skin melts but not about lunar spleen biles?"
Noburi grinned. "It's what I do. Still, I'd really rather I didn't have to, so try to go easy on the sealing failures, will you? Between this and the Naraka Storm, I'm suddenly a lot less comfortable living in a compound full of sealmasters."
Need a new research set up out of town.
"All right," Noburi said. "So Shima and Fukasaku were really impressed with me for knowing the name 'Pasafutsu', which is kind of funny given I heard it from them to begin with. Apparently, only really old summons know that name, because he gave it up when he became the Pangolin Hierophant."
The most honest kind of impressed. Is Pasafutsu from pacifist? Polemarch comes from war and leader. Hierophant comes from sacred and reveal. Something else to involve Kei in as we learn more.
"And get the info," Noburi agreed. "But a man's got to have priorities in life."
"Gramps, we want to know how you figured out the mystery of the Pangolin War! Why do you keep bringing up how you never ran out of japes for Hyūga?"

Well done. Beautiful writing.
 
Assuming that they're on board with listening to Hazo, instead of just adding three more cooks trying to use the same oven. Everyone seems to be making the assumption that a) Minato and Hashirama are still there instead of having moved on and b) that they'll just... go with whatever Hazo wants. Like, we just had a 'other people have feelings and agency' update, can we last a bit longer than a day before forgetting it?
On the one hand, you're perfectly right - on the other hand, if we find Hashirama and Minato, and offer to bring them back to a prosperous Leaf in a time of peace? They'll very probably want back and definitely feel like they owe us big time.
 
Minato's 'goodness' is more memetic than anything else, we don't really see him doing anything that would give credence to it other than 'loving his wife and kid', and the testimony of Jiraiya who might be a bit biased on this.
minato's sealing notes are decoded by his poetry.
suggests minato wanted a poetry lover to gain power. believing poetry lover would use it for peace.
theory hampered by his poetry being terrible. which a poetry lover would hate even more than layman.
edit:
earthshaping creator maybe similar.
 
I perceive a balance in my head about game balance here. On the left, you have "Think for Yourselves, Players". On the right you have "Rational Simulation + Do Whatever is Optimal". We will naturally tend to the right because that's optimal. The experts will usually be smarter than us when it comes to details or socials because they live in that world 24/7 and we don't - that's their field of strength, not ours. Also, Kei is just straight up smarter than us, and is written by QMs who are really flippin' smart. That said, if we keep using Ask an Expert, things will change so we can't do this as much because that's not fun. Eventually we'll be forced left side of this scale. Currently I feel like we didn't talk to Kei in so long about anything story-changing. We stayed really heavily on the left side of the scale meta-wise with her. Frustrated, Kei says "Use Me!" When we talk to her, she gives a wholeeeee bunch of free information about what'll happen with necromancy. This pushes things back to the right side of scale to incentivize us to use "Ask an Expert" again. If we do that too much, though...
Watsonian explanation for Hazō's weird behavior: Kagome knows all of this and is manipulating the grue to steer Hazō's actions to optimize over this and other metafictional elements.
 
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