- Location
- Bronx
I have no idea if this would work, but I appreciate the funny Sasuke picture
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
I have no idea if this would work, but I appreciate the funny Sasuke picture
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Training Plan - Akane: FOOM!
Midteens is ahead of the curve for up and down noises. Life threatening injuries will do that to a person. From age or mileage, up and down noises are the sign of a dangerous shinobi.
Noburi
He said it.
Kei beat her to it.
Yes! The words have been spoken. Cat is out of the bag. The ritual is not even being called that insane in front of us, which is really good or really bad.
Smart idea. And smart boundary on bugging the Hagoromo following.
First time seeing compartment used this way but the text does a good job introducing its meaning. Glad we went through the effort to ask about SC even if it did not end up being a simple yes.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Someone slept on the couch, that night…
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[X] Action Plan: Field Trip!
Edit 2:
Where exactly did you get such a cursed image of Sasuke? I mean, it's absolutely perfect for the meme, but wtf?
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I made it.
Do not underestimate the mad science division.
We have theoretical funding.
Edit: I mean I bashed different images together. I didn't draw Sasuke; I just edited him.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
I imagine this is how Naruto would draw him. Absolutely cursed.
He doesn't even need to be able to read minds, he just has to be good at reading body language so that his Sharingan can predict where people are going to move in the next couple seconds.
I think it's most likely that his eyes and visual cortex just pick up on subtle visual cues and translate that into a predictive ability. No time loops here.
I am not claiming that the Sharingan is a time loop. I am claiming that if Sasuke's explanation is sufficiently honest, then the Sharingan's future sight ability is functionally similar enough to a time loop that we both cannot experience and can only extract very specific information from. It was a similarity that I'd hoped would make thinking of the phenomenon easier.
But is reading body language and predicting people through it enough for the Sharingan's described and shown functionality?
If that were an exhaustive explanation, Sasuke could not use his eyes on 'things' as he says in the passage. That should be enough, but in addition:
Also, the rift would not have been able to screw with his eye if the only source of information he needed was Hazou's body language, but it did. That must be true unless we presume that Hazou can somehow detect the rift but only subconsciously, which changes his body language but hides from his mind. Thus, Sasuke's eye at worst included the rift in its calculations... But the rift is not a person; nor does it have body language.
Okay, so that's not it. Is it sufficient that the Sharingan observes 'minute details' and can simply simulate a few seconds of reality based on what Sasuke can see or has seen?
Maybe. We again run into the 'working on things' problem, but this is far easier to test for than to argue for or against. That's why both the colored ribbon and the secret number tests are double blind, thus impossible to simulate without observing very specific moments (which we don't let him do).
So yeah, the core thrust of your idea is definitely possible. It is, in fact, the big thing to test for. Because if it is right, ChakrAI is just letting Sasuke hog a lot of processing power occasionally. (This is why the lupchanzen got Itachi to kill them all! Wake up sheeple!)
If it is wrong, Sasuke and Itachi are the two most valuable people in the Elemental Nations and have no idea, because they only think like ninja.
Thank you for your feedback!
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- Location
- Yes.
DO NOT MESS WITH TIME
Buut mom, Sasuke can!
Edit: We have to get started on the final boss, the Sage of six logistics companies and five social media corporations named Muskrat or something, eventually.
Edit duh: HPMOR Harry was a hack. More seriously, selectively simulating reality (or answers to questions that it can know before you ask them) when ChakrAI already basically runs reality is not time travel. That's like saying my computer is engaging in timey wimey activities under the influence each time autocorrect bothers me.
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- Location
- Yes.
- Location
- Europe
The sharingan also sees chakra:
and the place also causes chakra weirdness:
Sasukes magic brain might not be good enough to deal with this.
And the part that I quoted already adressed that Sasuke is thinking about body language and probabilities. Why would he argue that the "futures" are wrong?
He could just be braging, but that sounds kind of dumb in this situation.
I'm a bit confused about your post. Do you think your position (which you understand better than I do) and the O'uzu passage are compatible? On that point, what is your position?
Because if I understand correctly we are still on the second, more generous counter hypothesis that I outlined (that, effectively, the Sharingan is simulating stuff from Sasuke's sharingan-enhanced observations) - which we have not so far found evidence to conclusively confirm or falsify. Which Sasuke might not even himself know enough to do either. So, if prior evidence and interpretation aren't cutting it, testing is the way forward.
I think we are largely agreed, but can't help but feel confused about something.
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- Location
- Europe
I was trying to say that Sasuke isn't ignorant of the fact that his eye are predicting body movements and he would have communicated that, so the rift is causing some interference, like you said:
I think what confuses you is me pointing out that he is also seeing chakra?
Yeah, that could be it. I think we are on the same page now, so thank you.
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
The cheating eyes in its base form give kinectic vision, the ability to see chakra and the ability to se and read the micro movements, this also allow the uchiha to copy jutsu and predict someone movements. Also give them incredible response time to capitalize on that.
They can't just see the future trough.
They can't just see the future trough.
I feel fairly confident that Sasuke's current Sharingan are different than the base form / canon form.
As included in the proposal, Sasuke says:
What you've quoted below isn't inconsistent with @MrRobot's description of how the Sharingan works. In my opinion the likeliest explanation is that Sasuke's eyes pick up lots of little visual details that are missed by ordinary people, and his brain turns that into probability clouds.
Let me clarify: Like I wrote above, I agree that the most steelmanned (and most applicable) counter hypothesis to "Sasuke is right that he can actually see the future" is along the lines of what you are saying. I am proposing that a simple double blind experiment will determine which case is the actual truth.
More importantly, I believe that if a simple experiment can either easily falsify Sasuke's IC opinion (and the future sight hypothesis) or give us incredible power, I think we should not discount the possibility that Sasuke might be literally correct about his ability. Either a failure will earn us Sasuke's goodwill because we've informed him of a possible weakness which he was unaware of - and now can prepare against -, or we get the, uh...
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If the Sharingan can actually predict the future, why bother with probability clouds at all? Anything on the scale of thousands of atoms or more is very very deterministic. The natural world is a lot larger than a thousand atoms!
The phenomenon of probability clouds sounds like very good modeling. Since if the Sharingan was actually receiving information from the future, there would be no need to show the cloud, simply show the action.
Honestly it sounds to me like there's an advanced prediction model that keys off very fine visual detail and then sends that prediction back to the user by way of the visual cortex. Very cool stuff, not time travel.
The phenomenon of probability clouds sounds like very good modeling. Since if the Sharingan was actually receiving information from the future, there would be no need to show the cloud, simply show the action.
Honestly it sounds to me like there's an advanced prediction model that keys off very fine visual detail and then sends that prediction back to the user by way of the visual cortex. Very cool stuff, not time travel.
- Location
- Yes.
Could it be possible that Sasuke('s ancestors) have tested the possibility of the Sharingan not actually being able to see the future, and that Sasuke's explanation to us was a piece of misdirection intended for us to spread false intelligence on the Sharingan's abilities?
MrRobot
In doubt there's always the Sun!
This or just an way to boast his cheating eye due the rivalry with the hyuga. Or even just a an dumb down explaination because most ninja would have the word probability cloud fly over their heads.
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Depends on how ChakrAI works. If the 'time travel' part as you put it is done through some sort of simulation, for example, heuristics can result in the phenomenon you are describing as unlikely. Still very cool stuff; not time travel.
What we care more about isn't the definition but its information gathering ability within the context of the MfD world and ChakrAI. It could call itself Pink Pony No Jutsu for all it matters relative to that.
On deception: Like I put at the end of the proposal, you would want defensive misdirection to go the other way. It's possible but I can't understand the strategy.
On ancestors: It's definitely possible. However, we have repeatedly seen ninja hyperfocus on combat applications (for understandable reasons), which means they would have a harder time of making the distinction between the top theories we have now (in combat, relevant evidence is more likely to appear similar enough). I mean, not one person ever thought of using a fixed-in-space shield as a platform.
Ultimately, unless someone comes up with new evidence, it seems we are stuck with conjecture. We don't know how the Sharingan works. We don't know how the physical world of MfD actually works. We don't know how ChakrAI works. We only have a few passages to build a theory on top of.
In that case, the only way to actually determine which hypothesis is true is to test for it. And in this case, the test is simple enough that Honoka could run it.
Edit: I want to clarify that I am not "pushing to make you believe that Sharingan time travel is real", and I apologize if it appears that way. I don't really care if Sharingan future vision, limited time loop, ChakrAI heuristics, or whatever its precise definition would be, is real. I care that 1) if we take Sasuke at his word and 2) verify it with an exceedingly simple test, we can become as gods.
We would not search for Jiraiya. The moment we sit Sasuke in front of the rift, we would know where he is.
And if not, we lost five minutes.
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