So. I sat down to write an essay about Orochimaru and instead I'm info dumping my thoughts here, once I get through all of the available information I'll try to actually write an essay. TL
R Orochimaru actually does have good intentions. He does. He also has one of the absolute worst cases of being a Jōnin *ever*. Orochimaru is obsessed with knowledge, absolutely. His ingroup is incredibly narrow, but he legitimately wants the best for the people in that group. The problem is he's a utilitarian who forgets he needs to maximize consent alongside saving lives.
And yes, I do believe that his goal is to save lives, not self preservation. Below I'm including the first section of my info dump, and the sources used for it.
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The Marked for Death version of Orochimaru is a nuanced, and polarizing character. In this analysis I will attempt to stay true to specifically the Marked for Death version, only taking very general information for granted (such as: Orochimaru was a ninja of Leaf. He went missing at some point, and is horny for science).
The first mention of Orochimaru is in Chapter 29: The Journey Back. Jiraiya was investigating the Liberator and SSSSS, and he was incredibly confused as to why Orochimaru would be "trying to start a war". He states that Orochimaru "... finds disorder, or what he thinks of as disorder, to be utterly disgusting, to say nothing of how he feels about 'crude implements'. Besides, he's survived this long despite being an acknowledged S-class threat partly because he takes care not to draw any attention to himself...".
This is very interesting with what we know now, namely that Orochimaru is embarrassed by SSSSS, and expresses this the instant the topic is brought up. If nothing else, this is confirmation that Jiraiya had absolutely no contact with Orochimaru up until this point.
Also of note here is several character traits revealed by Jiraiya. Orochimaru finds disorder repugnant, it's a personal distaste. Not just a preference. I posit that this could be related to why Orochimaru went missing. Additionally, we learned that Orochimaru prefers precision over brute force, and this is an even stronger preference than his distaste of disorder. This is a very important facet going forwards with him. He will be disgusted, on a base level by show boating or ham fisted attempts to force his cooperation. On the other hand, he may admire or even find precise attempts with specific goals soothing - he may welcome someone in his life who understands this even as they use it against him.
I would also like to point out the following passage as being critically important foreshadowing from the qms:
"
'Do you know what he did?' Hazō asked Jiraiya, perhaps incautiously, but aware that this was a rare opportunity to get a real answer to a question that might turn out to be important later.
'He decided it was easier not to care about people,' Jiraiya said heavily. He did not elaborate.".
Orochimaru is capable of empathy, and from context used to be *highly* empathetic. This is confirmed in recent chapters with the Tsunade/Orochimaru research notes.
The next time we hear anything about Orochimaru in depth is in Chapter 111: What Goes Round.... In this chapter Noburi talks about his experiences learning under Dr. Yakushi (read, Kabuto). Here we learn that Orochumaru dabbled in what is essentially utilitarianism in his frustrated attempts to save lives. This information needs to be taken with several grains of salt, but it does actually follow the model we've built so far. Jiraiya read Orochimaru advocating for ~~human sacrifices~~ human experimentation as 'deciding to not care' when in fact it's the opposite. This was a crisis of identity for Orochimaru. He's been grappling with the Obvious Good of saving lives and the knowledge that he could save more if he could do an irrationally unethical action. *He still wants to do good here. He's still motivated by saving lives*.
This is soured when Orochimaru is condemned for his actions rather than applauded, or ignored. I believe this, and years of isolation afterward are where his actively anti-social tendencies come from. Why bother playing nice if they're going to betray you *even when you're willing to do an evil thing to save lives*? After years of self justification he may now be jaded enough that he no longer sees his actions as immoral, but I doubt it. I believe he's insecure, and this is why he responds so aggressively to any insinuation that he's not acting in good faith. He's trying to!
Furthering my point that Orochimaru does in fact still feel empathy is the way he chose to contact Jiraiya. He chose a boardgame as the base for the code, an activity that promotes bonding and interpersonal relations. He chose a seal blank Jiraiya made decades ago in response to remorse over *not being able to save more lives*. Keep in mind Orochimaru doesn't have the iron nerve. For him to remember that blank means that night had huge significance to him. We don't have enough information on the timelines to be sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the conversation that lead Orochimaru to human experimentation and his 'ends justify the means' mentality.
Additionally, earlier in the same chapter we got to see some of the cards from said boardgame. The Thunder Prince, Reptile Lord, and Snail Queen. These are Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade respectively. Curiously, the Thunder Prince and Snail Queen cards are written to be horrible together unless mediated by the Reptile Lord, who also happens to be an excellent teacher. Sure, that may just be a nod to Orochimaru's intellectual prowess, but I believe it to be more than this. I think that's the role he *wants* to fill. He wants to be an educator and mediator - or at least he thinks the idealized version of himself wants to be an educator.
Next, we have Interlude: War Stories. This interlude was Jiraiya reminiscing on the good ol' Sannin days. Obviously Jiraiya is an unreliable narrator here: I simply do not believe that Oro ever actually said "You know I'm no good with people, especially girls. They're scary. And my research conclusively proves that they have cooties.". He probably just looked at his books and sighed.
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Eaglejarl, & Velorien. (2017, December 3).
Interlude: War Stories. SufficientVelocity. Retrieved April 29, 2022, from
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest (STORY ONLY)
Eaglejarl, & Velorien. (2017, October 22).
Chapter 164: Missions and Messages. SufficientVelocity. Retrieved April 29, 2022, from
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest (STORY ONLY)
Velorien, & Eaglejarl. (2016, March 24).
Chapter 29: The Journey Back. SufficientVelocity. Retrieved April 29, 2022, from
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest (STORY ONLY)
Velorien, & Eaglejarl. (2017, March 17).
Chapter 111: What Goes Round... SufficientVelocity. Retrieved April 29, 2022, from
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest (STORY ONLY)
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[] Snuncle time
• Send Orochimaru a formal invitation from "The Lord of clan Gōketsu, chosen heir of Jiraiya" addressed to "Orochimaru of the Sannin, hero of Leaf and ally of clan Gōketsu". Request that he clear an entire evening and guarantee that if he finds the proceedings to be a waste of his time that we'll compensate him as fitting of an ally.
• Spend 1 FP to know what Jiraiya thought Orochimarus favorite beverage was, surely it came up in conversation or his notes, have said beverage prepared.
• Host in a well furnished building separate from the main building, the same distance away as the Nara safe Hyūga distance, decorated with memorabilia of Jiraiya, as well as all of our known privacy seals.
• Greet him warmly as Uncle Oro, inform him of CCnJ and it's uses in turning conversations into orderly affairs without irrational misunderstandings.
• Formally apologize. The Gōketsu failed Orochimaru when he returned to Leaf, and we're fixing that. It was Jiraiyas will for Oro to return, and we've failed his memory.
• Activate privacy seals, with Oros consent. Ask him to include any that he has, if willing.
• "You are perhaps the only person in Leaf who has the capacity to listen to what I'm about to say and not write it off as either the ravings of a madman and the ability to help. I know of an extant rift to the afterlife caused by a sealing failure. I know it's a rift to the afterlife because I killed a hostile ninja and shortly afterwards he appeared on the other side of the portal. Up until this point I didn't have a high enough degree of certainty in your commitment to working with your allies to further mutual goals. That changed with your willingness to buy research materials off of me rather than simply taking them. A small matter, perhaps. But meaningful. Currently I have neither the skills or time to pursue recovering our friends and family from the afterlife, but I'm working on it. The help of a 'general instructor' would advance my timeline considerably. " At this point, place the Reptile Lord card from Endemic Supremacy on the table.
"Again, the Gōketsu failed Jiraiya's memory in this case. Would you help me rectify this by making Jiraiya welcome you back himself?"
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Notes or thoughts of any kind are appreciated. Additionally, I'm getting my information by searching for "Orochimaru" in the story only thread. If anyone remembers relevant information that doesn't call to him by name, please please please link it.
