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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Veedrac said:
Don't mind me, just collecting my Bayes points.


I will appreciate if plans consider adding The High Way Project to themselves. Its main advantage, besides radically and rapidly transforming the Elemental Nations, is that we can just delegate it to Mari and her current project. We don't have to nanny it.

  • Abusing MARIThe High Way Project
    • Discuss with Mari
    • MARI costs ~1 CP/m (!!) for large casts, or ~100km/y (!!) per ninja with just 300 CP.
      • There are plenty of ways to get more chakra
      • Team up with other villages, esp Mist for Wakahisa?
    • Protected, quality raised roads between locations
      • Multiple casts for higher traffic
    • Collect/channel/barricade water flows
      • Irrigate/desertify areas on demand
      • Rivers and sewer systems on demand
    • Grid areas of the map
      • Severely limits (thus depopulates) roaming predators
      • Grid cell much easier to clear out & start villages safely
      • Esp: Farms in grid cells
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Same tbh
 
eaglejarl said:
Author's note: This is what I wrote the first time, before deciding to let Hazō-pilot chime in. I then discarded it and wrote the actual update that is threadmarked above. This is here only as extra material. It is not canon.


Chapter 505.1: Fussy Little Details​

"Lord Orochimaru?" Hazō asked, the words becoming firm halfway through as he forcibly clamped down on his emotions. "We are agreed that you will have two weeks of exclusive access and then we may recall the items at any time? And that you will make all your research findings public?"

"Yes, yes," Orochimaru said, waving dismissively and not looking away from what he was doing. He had lifted the claw fragment up with a mix of chakra adhesion and repulsion that kept it balanced an inch from his skin. He was turning it back and forth and his forked tongue was extended a foot and a half, tasting the air around the Sageforsaken object.

"Lord Gōketsu?" Kabuto said, a verbal nudge that barely hinted at impatience. "Hazō? Would this be sufficient payment?"

Hazō looked to his clan mates. Noburi was furiously nodding with imploring eyes. Mari was frozen and offering no input.

"This is a very generous offer," Hazō said slowly. "I think I would be a fool not to accept it—"

"Excellent!" Doctor Yakushi said. "In that case—"

"BUT. I would be a fool not to accept it, but I want to make sure that we have the same understanding of what we're agreeing to."

Orochimaru froze for a moment, then dropped the claw back into the box, stood up, and turned to face Hazō. He stepped forward, standing at the precise distance that would be threatening if he were an inch closer.

"Speak."

Hazō resisted the urge to step back so that he didn't have to crane his neck to look at the much taller shinobi.

"Sir, I'm grateful for your offer and glad to—"

Orochimaru made a cutting gesture with one hand.

"Right, sorry. I want to be able to work with you in the future and that means being sure we both have the same understanding. You're giving us these"—he held up the papers—"and we're giving you exclusive access to all Dragon parts that we own, one at a time, for two weeks each. We'll deliver them anywhere you want, which presumably is your estate. Yes?"

"Yes, obviously." He spun one finger in the universal gesture for 'move it along'.

"The Gōketsu continue to own the parts and will reclaim them after your two-week period ends."

"Yes, yes." Impatience was audible in the Sannin's voice.

"Whichever parts you aren't using at a given time, the Gōketsu can do what we like with. Let others examine them, lock them away, whatever. When you're done with a part, let us know and we'll supply the next one within twenty-four hours."

Orochimaru's eyes narrowed. "Do you intend to demand that I sit in an advocate's office and sign a document to which the Hokage shall affix his seal, or are we making a deal as men?"

"We are making a deal as men, sir. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be clear."

A muscle jumped in Orochimaru's jaw. "I see. And what other fussy little clarifications do you feel I need to stand here and listen to?"

"Do you agree that the parts you aren't using may be non-destructively investigated by other parties until the deal concludes."

"I agreed to that not ten seconds ago. Stop wasting my time."

"You will provide five packets of notes or information of equivalent value to those currently offered if any parts are damaged during your investigations. The remnants will then be returned and the deal terminated. Equivalency to be determined by Tower-appointed arbiter. If parts are destroyed, same thing but it's ten packets."

The air began to shimmer and Hazō stopped talking as chills ran up his spine and danced across the goosebumps on his arms.

They stood there, three Gōketsu, a clanless jōnin, and a walking cataclysm. No one moved, no one spoke. After several seconds, Orochimaru reeled his soul back into his body and smoothed the incipient anger from his face.

"You are correct, Hazō," he said calmly. "I believe we do need to clarify some things. Let me see if I understand the thoughts that have been running through your head for the last few minutes."

He folded one arm across his chest, resting his elbow on his palm and rubbing his jaw with an exaggeratedly thoughtful frown. "Hmm...it would appear that Orochimaru is very interested in this thing that I own. I shall need to extract as much value as possible. It certainly was clever of me to leave the majority of the Dragon parts on the Seventh Path—now he can't simply take these items because if he does then I won't give him any more.

"Ah, but wait! What if he threatens me? He could use his nasty, evil Sannin brain magic to crush my will and force me to give him things! Oh no, my plans are ruined!

"No, wait! He was afraid of Tsunade! If he does anything I don't like, I'll simply go running to her again and she will put him in his place! Haha, I am victorious! I have him over a barrel, and there is nothing he can do to stop me! I shall make him give me everything I could possibly desire! Jutsu! Money! Unlimited power is mine because I can extort Orochimaru with my Dragon parts. Just think of the possibilities—he already offered me a blank note against an account that contains thirty-six million ryō, deeds to large swaths of land and a share in a merchant ship, seals that he created with Jiraiya, and priceless medical knowledge he created with Tsunade! Surely I can get even more than this? He is, after all, apparently willing to make a deal.

"But wait! We all know how untrustworthy he is. What if he finds some loophole and wiggles through it? What if he exploits the deal, or does something I didn't think of and don't like? Horrors! Trust isn't possible, so I must make the deal perfectly explicit. Yes, right now he's very interested in the preliminary investigation he's doing, but I'm sure that he won't mind being dragged away from that in order to haggle over fussy little details like an untrusting fishwife in the market."

Hazō, Alertness: 33 - 3 (dice): 30

Orochimaru, Alertness: ? + 0 (dice): more than 30


Before Hazō could react, one bone-white hand lashed out and plucked away the papers Hazō held between loose fingers. Orochimaru absently tucked most of them into his pocket as he stepped over to the breakfast table. He lay the last paper on the surface and unsealed a long wooden box.

"You have an overinflated sense of your own importance, boy," Orochimaru said, flipping the box open to reveal a bottle of ink and a brush. He loaded the brush and swirled something across the paper. He cleaned the brush on a bit of cloth and tucked it back into the box, then dropped the box back into its storage seal. He blew across the paper to ensure that the ink was dry, then turned back to Hazō.

"I don't need your permission for this, boy. All I need do is walk over to the Tower and tell Asuma that you have these things, that after ten seconds of observation I have already thought of half a dozen military applications of a material that rapidly destroys anything living and eats through granite slowly. I could even stop at the hospital on the way and suggest to Tsunade that there could be value in a scalpel that cauterizes as it cuts. I would need to run very quickly indeed to keep up with her as she stormed over to Asuma's office and demanded that the full supply be turned over to her forthwith.

"Asuma would jump at the opportunity to make both of us happy at little cost to himself, and even more so at the thought that, given the chance to study these things, Tsunade and I might manage to find something of military value that no other village could possibly get. Something that might help to alleviate the massive beating Leaf has taken over the last few years. A beating, I note, that is mostly due to events that you set in motion."

He waved a hand dismissively. "Now, of course, you would likely claim that these are Gōketsu Clan property and clan secrets. That would last until Tsunade pointed out that you were intending to make them available for general research and therefore they cannot be clan secrets. I estimate that would take"—he waggled his hand in uncertainty—"three, perhaps four seconds, and it would likely be stated with sufficient volume to deafen everyone from Leaf to the northern tip of Snow.

"Now, would Asuma simply take your treasure from you by force? No, of course not. He would call a meeting of the Clan Council and, with you and I and Tsunade and all the heads of the voting clans sitting at the table, he would tell them of your patriotism in making these things available for public research and could everyone please gather around and help figure out the best way to make use of the five scales that the Gōketsu have obtained, the largest of which is taller than you are. The same for the claw tip that is four feet long, and the smaller claw fragments, and the tooth.

"Yes, he would look you in the eye and tell you how patriotic you are for agreeing to make these things available for the benefit of Leaf. He would speak at length about the many potential advantages this could bring to Leaf, advantages both medical and martial. He would praise you to the skies and say how much Leaf needed this right now and that you were showing the true Will of Fire with your actions. He would tell you how grateful the nation was and that, in token of this gratitude, he had ordered a substantial disbursement from the Tower Treasury to the Gōketsu coffers. Probably five or ten million ryō, at a guess. He would then ask you how soon you could have all of the various parts brought to Leaf for examination, with the initial examination to be done in Orochimaru's uniquely-equipped lab with Tsunade's assistance." He gasped, hands going to his cheeks in horror. "Oh no! Hung from your own rope! That dastardly snake Orochimaru is going to get unlimited access and you are going to get nothing! What shall you do? Perhaps you might claim that you cannot bring them back from the Seventh Path?" He frowned. "Hm, that seems odd. You brought these parts back, why are the rest more difficult? Well, perhaps you could simply refuse to bring them back, while standing there in front of a grateful Kage, an excited Tsunade, and all your peers? I'm certain that would do wonders for your reputation and your political future."

He extended one hand to Hazō, the paper held casually between two fingers. "Here is the deal, boy. Instead of thirty-six million ryō, large swaths of land, a share in a merchant ship, seals that I created with Jiraiya, and priceless medical knowledge that I created with Tsunade, you can have what I suspect Asuma would have given you. I will take these items to my lab for the next two weeks. At the end of that time you may come and pick them up. If I am interested in continuing my studies then I will give you the opportunity to make me another offer for the rest of the items.

"We're done here."
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faflec.reaction
 
If I may ask, how or why would Oro be more positively influenced by Hazo's course of correction, in the more-than-+3-time line?
 
Lampshade said:
Kagome infohazard consultation? Maybe the reason that only poems are left where clear instructions are expected is that the information itself has elusive properties.
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Kagome was the first person we asked about the poem IIRC

On a related note, though, I wonder if stuff like April-Fools Ino's jutsu or Truth Lost in Fog's memory erasure actually, like, work on Kagome?
 
Veedrac said:
I will appreciate if plans consider adding The High Way Project to themselves. Its main advantage, besides radically and rapidly transforming the Elemental Nations, is that we can just delegate it to Mari and her current project. We don't have to nanny it.

  • Abusing MARIThe High Way Project
    • Discuss with Mari
    • MARI costs ~1 CP/m (!!) for large casts, or ~100km/y (!!) per ninja with just 300 CP.
      • There are plenty of ways to get more chakra
      • Team up with other villages, esp Mist for Wakahisa?
    • Protected, quality raised roads between locations
      • Multiple casts for higher traffic
    • Collect/channel/barricade water flows
      • Irrigate/desertify areas on demand
      • Rivers and sewer systems on demand
    • Grid areas of the map
      • Severely limits (thus depopulates) roaming predators
      • Grid cell much easier to clear out & start villages safely
      • Esp: Farms in grid cells
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Given the new context it'd be polite to vote for this on EJ-numbered updates.

In protest of the voters ruining the 4-way tie, and since nobody votes for Science!,

[X] Let Velorien write whatever he wants.
 
Shrooms said:
Kagome was the first person we asked about the poem IIRC

On a related note, though, I wonder if stuff like April-Fools Ino's jutsu or Truth Lost in Fog's memory erasure actually, like, work on Kagome?
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The Crimson Purification was designed to remove lupchanzen, obviously. So yes, also obviously, it works on Kagome. He's the very biggest lupchanz nest there is, and the very last you'd expect.
 
Do we actually think Asuma would have compensated Hazou less than Oro for renting the parts?
That is a failure mode that we may need to consider before letting Asuma know of other mutually beneficial trades.

edit:
eaglejarl said:
Hazō is in the situation, knows the culture
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How negatively does Hazo think a typical well-socialized ninja would have reacted to the implication of untrustworthiness from discussion of the penalty clauses?
 
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roobee said:
Do we actually think Asuma would have compensated Hazou less than Oro for renting the parts?
That is a failure mode that we may need to consider before letting Asuma know of other mutually beneficial trades.
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Not inherently, but even if Orochimaru slightly miscalculated everybody's reactions in his scenario he could probably brute force a similar scenario with his S-rank-ness.

I think Orochimaru probably understands that he can't continuously ask the Tower to do his dirty-work for him, and would rather not deal with the social entanglements trying to do so would require which is why he was so willing to throw all those assets at us.

But at the same time he definitely understands how much weight he can throw around, it's just not usually worth it for him unless he's trying to make a point like he is here or it's the only way to get something he really wants (like when Kei was almost kidnapped).
 
RandomOTP said:
We need better socials... RIP Hazou's pyramids.
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Honestly I think we need to do better/conservative modeling of other people and "get out" of our more modern mindset. I think a lot of our social missteps come from us just transplanting the 21st century "rational" mindset that drives most of our actions in the quest onto each and every person we meet.

I'm not saying we need to be hesitant when it comes to defending non-heterosexualities, just that we should be anticipating people's objections more.

(Though more social fu is probably a good way to cover up any deficiencies we have in our modeling)
 
You may remember my initial comment to Oro's offer was was to give him 3 weeks instead of 2. It was a joke, but also not. Next time I have a reaction, I'll make it a vote, just in case. I don't participate as much as I should but I feel like I have pretty good instincts for not pissing off S class threats.
 
So what if the first chapter 507 actually happened. and the yamanaka girl used her mind powers to replace hazou's memory with the second chapter 507?
i dunno if more social fu is necessary. mari was right there and could plausibly have recovered in time. especially if we took her around a corner outside of oro's sight
edit: although oro does seem to look down on hazou asking his clan for advice going by prior meetings. maybe oro views most people as sheep and views that as following the sheep view? while if hazou thinks for himself that's good?
 
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Oh, did this idea catch on? Cool!

[X] Follow Shikamaru's advice, consult with Kei/Ami about the band of five
[X] Discuss the Hidan situation, and what it means for AMITY, with Asuma and Ami
[X] Take A Look At My Sensei, And The Sealing Notes I've Got.
[X] Take A Look At My Girlfriends, They're The Only Ones I've Got. Not Much Of A Boyfriend, I Seem To Want To Die A Lot
 
ah yes, what fools we were for trying to make a mutually beneficial arrangement *sigh*
on other news, i like hazou-pilot, hazou-pilot is a good boy.
[X] Take A Look At My Sensei, And The Sealing Notes I've Got.
[X] Take A Look At My Girlfriends, They're The Only Ones I've Got. Not Much Of A Boyfriend, I Seem To Want To Die A Lot
 
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Ipsos Custodes said:
[X] Action Plan: Deal With The (Snake) Devil

"I think..." that Lord Orochimaru has been very generous and agree to the two week rental of these items for all that he's presented here, I look forward to hearing about what information Lord Orochimaru discovers since there are more dragons. If there is a reason to extend the rental I will be happy to discuss that at a later point in time. Also, we keep the items on a stone slab inside the wooden box because they don't seem to eat through stone but we're not sure, it may just eat through stone more slowly.

This is the gist to get across, it need not be an exact quote.

(Conversations in the last plan are likely to occur in this chapter since they already happened, we just don't know the substance, so it's a lighter plan, accordingly.)
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*sigh*

I know people were trying to get more, it was well intentioned. Please update your models of Orochimaru that until we're S Rank any benefits we get from him are at his suffrage or what other S Rank ninjas can get him to agree to (and maybe Asuma, sometimes).

We have no true leverage over him and will not have any leverage over him until that point.

Let these -38 XP be a lesson for the Hivemind and invest the XP in our "Understanding Orochimaru" stunt.

(The absolute values of XP given in character are usable by the Hivemind for the Hive character sheet.)
 
Eisenhelm said:
coldcutconvict sorry i doubted your wisdom.
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No sorry needed. Do not feel bad. Two other plans earned my vote too. Approval voting is great. The outcome was not bad either. Losing 1 FP and 40 XP in a deal that earns 600 XP is like losing 3 million from the 36 million ryo. A worthwhile cost for more information about negotiating with Orochimaru, depending on the reader.

Dating is sacred. Next plan you make has my vote.
 
If we ignore the non-Hazou pilot chapter as OOC knowledge, I'm not sure how much we have to update about not having leverage on Oro.
Hazou noticed something about Oro, and decided placating him was important enough to spend a buncha FP on.
But was Hazou's realization that of having no leverage? Or realizing a trade partner you have leverage over is getting more angry then expected, and judging that you aren't getting enough benefits to justify incurring their anger to be worth it?
 
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