We had a HUGE discussion over whether we should talk to Kabuto or Oro.

And then it didn't make any difference - of COURSE Kabuto has to report to Oro _immediately_ upon hearing anything the snake cares about.

We missed that obvious connection, and we got caught flat-footed without any of the security we had considered using if we went the Oro route.

Was this mistake preventable? Is this a mistake we make in other places too? Is this a mistake in modeling Kabuto, in modeling Oro's subordinates, in modeling subordinates overall? Are we ignoring inter-character interactions too much? This could have been DEADLY.

Not to say this possibility isnt something that was missed or not, but I think that it does perhaps come at why this happened from the wrong direction. Been a while since I partook of the anime/manga, but given Kabuto's actual drooling reaction and iirc canon, he has his own vested interest in dragons. How then can he most easily get his own hands on the parts, to the extent to which he needs to? Well, getting his patron involved, who themselves will certainly be interested, is an easy route with very few costs to Kabuto, save that we may not go to him quite as easily in the future. Which, you know, given the need to question whether he was alive or not, doesn't seem to be something we are doing all that much of anyways, and in conversation, it was confirmed to him that one of the benefits he would gain from increased communications with us, that being access to Noburi, was unlikely to happen anyways. So a very minor loss all things considered.

But yeah, don't discount Kabuto's agency here, he wants the parts just as much as Oro Id say, potentially more. And giving them to Oro is also giving them to Kabuto, which might be something to consider, though not sure how much Hazou would be wary of that.

Though on the other hand, considering present company's reactions plus how much we stand to gain here, don't think saying no is really all that much of an option. Assuming we are not going to be getting any parts we hand over back is likely the right call, and maybe we can be pleasantly surprised.
 
Last edited:
No no, I was framing that from Orochimaru's perspective. They are extremely valuable to us, but just numbers on some paper for Orochimaru, and that's why he brought them out to grease the wheels and ensure he got what he actually wanted.

We're wowed by the veritable fortune, he gives up some horribly-outdated (to him) chicken scratches and some money he didn't have any use for anyways. An easy price for him, in the name of research potential, and a huge bounty for us.
Ah, good. That was the goal.

I was pondering jutsu-based WMDs, as one does, and couldn't we get a Shadow Clone-capable ninja who knows Vacuum Step to make clones directly attached/harnessed to big chunks of MEW constructs, to bypass the issue of "massive rocks that have only been falling for 30 seconds don't do enough damage for our bloodthirsty taste"?
Slightly under 30 seconds of vacuum acceleration with gravity assist is a lot, and we don't even have to worry that much about missing do we? If it's inaccurate it'll be caught in the big boom
I mean, theoretically, against chakra beasts, since there is no war any more
Vacuum Step is like Substitution in that it won't accept 'invalid paths'. Chakra be chakra, so 'invalid path' is a wooly and ill-defined thing that generally means 'anything that isn't traveling from point A to point B', or maybe 'anything that tries to weaponize this jutsu.' I don't recall the exact wording, but Jiraiya previously told Hazō that paths which slam into something are not valid and that starting/ending in midair is not valid. (Pretty sure I have that right, but I'm open to being corrected.)
 
  • Ensure Ami gets Isan dossier
  • Throw Mari a celebration for MARI
  • Ask Mari if SSSSS adoptions are still a concern.
  • Research ARS (LBF/Chakdar inspired Seal that activates a paired Seal when activated)
  • Ask Cannai to keep the largest Dragon pieces in Dog territory
Well, we can assume we asked Cannai if he'd be okay with keeping the big pieces in Dog. Did the other misc stuff happen?
 
Last edited:
Hmm. It's nice, but I'm not thrilled about how Oro is framing this. I suggest accepting the rental agreement, then immediately striking another deal, where we sell him the part he's looking at in exchange for %insert custom shinies here%. Consider:
  • This rewards Oro for cooperating:
    • Short-term, he'll now be able to do whatever he wants to that part without keeping it intact.
    • Long-term, he'll know he's guaranteed to have at least one part indefinitely, for lengthy research projects or for materials.
  • This builds up our position, showing that we aren't deliriously happy that Oro gave us anything at all; that we want him to respect our actual preferences/interests when negotiating with us.
  • This shouldn't risk provoking Oro.
    • As far as his impatience goes, he's impatient to get his hands on the scale, and this move cooperates with that impatience, letting him truly have what he wants.
    • Importantly, we aren't threatening to take the thing he wants away, the way quibbling about the rental agreement would.
  • We get to ask Oro for custom shinies.
I'm not going to write this up as a plan, but I'd vote for it.
 
Last edited:
Hmm. It's nice, but I'm not thrilled about how Oro is framing this. I suggest accepting the rental agreement, then immediately striking another deal, where we sell him the part he's looking at in exchange for %insert custom shinies here%. Consider:
  • This rewards Oro for cooperating:
    • Short-term, he'll now be able to do whatever he wants to that part without keeping it intact.
    • Long-term, he'll know he's guaranteed to have at least one part indefinitely, for lengthy research projects or for materials.
  • This builds up our position, showing that we aren't deliriously happy that Oro gave us anything at all; that we want him to respect our actual preferences/interests when negotiating with us.
  • This shouldn't risk provoking Oro.
    • As far as his impatience goes, he's impatient to get his hands on the scale, and this move cooperates with that impatience, letting him truly have what he wants.
    • Importantly, we aren't threatening to take the thing he wants away, the way quibbling about the rental agreement would.
  • We get to ask Oro for custom shinies.
I'm not going to write this up in a plan, but I'll vote for it.
Yeah this is 100% the correct play. Custom shinies from Oro are a lot more valuable than the random stuff he has in his pocket
 
Vacuum Step is like Substitution in that it won't accept 'invalid paths'. Chakra be chakra, so 'invalid path' is a wooly and ill-defined thing that generally means 'anything that I don't recall the exact wording, but Jiraiya previously told Hazō that paths which slam into something are not valid and that starting/ending in midair is not valid. (Pretty sure I have that right, but I'm open to being corrected.)
You do have that right:
"And Vacuum Step is which element?"

"Wind. And there's no such thing as a Wind Clone." Pause. "Is there?"

Jiraiya laughed. "Nope. Also, Vacuum Step is just like Substitution—if you try to pick an invalid path it simply won't activate. 'Deliberately slamming into an object' counts as an invalid path."
My thinking was "aim for the ground, the clone ideally arrives safely, but the towed rock keeps its momentum and brings the hurt". Chakra be chakra though, if it can't be done because chakra refuses Wind Element exploit fast-travel-to-nukes any% speedruns I guess we'll have to punch more conventionally
 
I think the benefits of contacting Kabuto is that Kabuto's presence means Oro is going to try somewhat to be a person rather than a terminator. Since Kabuto is likely something like his secretary. And if Oro messes things up for him by forcing too hard, then it ruins the point of Kabuto's 'job'.

So it was still good (potentially life saving) to talk to Kabuto first.
 
A big prerequisite is being very, very good at conventional sealing, which Hazō currently isn't. If it's madness ar Kagome-level, biosealing will be off the menu for us for a long time yet
We don't really know what the prerequisites are. These early forrays into biosealing were supposedly close to the start of Oro and Jiraiya's careers, when they weren't as amazing at Sealing (especially since I doubt they sidelined their primary combat stats to get Sealing up to the 40s, whereas Hazou can cheat the pyramids with SSA). It's entirely possible Hazou is as good or better than they were depending on what it means by 'start of their careers'. Hazou is better than some current career sealmasters, like, better than people who dedicated their ninja careers to the craft, considering he's already a contender for like 3rd best in Leaf and the others we've seen are older than him.

I can believe Hazou will need better Sealing first, but I don't think we should act like it's a given, nor should we underrate how skilled Hazou already is. Besides, I don't think we're going to buy MedKnow until Sealing is increased to make room in the pyramids anyways, so this would be down the line regardless.
 
Last edited:
I mean biosealing notes are still pretty useful, especially if we can get the stunt/whatever the prerequisite is with medknow and the notes alone
Well if we follow Noumero's plan we get all those shinies plus more
I suggest accepting the rental agreement, then immediately striking another deal, where we sell him the part he's looking at in exchange for %insert custom shinies here

A big prerequisite is being very, very good at conventional sealing, which Hazō currently isn't. If it's madness ar Kagome-level, biosealing will be off the menu for us for a long time yet
Just a note Hazō has a sealing skill that costs more xp than bringing a regular skill to jounin level. I personally think that qualifies him as really good
 
We don't really know what the prerequisites are
I'm basing this on Kagomexpertise:
"I asked Kagome-sensei that," Hazō said. "After he was done ranting about what happens to biosealers who slip up and make one tiny mistake, and what happens to biosealers who succeed—which is usually even worse—and how I shouldn't even think about biosealing and instead focus on safer avenues of study like explosives research, he said nobody dives straight into biosealing and survives. All successful biosealers have a solid grounding in basic sealcrafting. Given that dimensional sealing, which is what we want, is a discipline I reinvented myself, there isn't going to be any sealmaster in Leaf, or maybe the world, whose specialised skills let them beat Orochimaru's general ones.
But besides the screaming in Kagome gut reaction, just consider the risks vs rewards of biosealing before we're 100% sure we're ready
 
I'm basing this on Kagomexpertise:

But besides the screaming in Kagome gut reaction, just consider the risks vs rewards of biosealing before we're 100% sure we're ready
Hazou *does* have a solid grounding in Sealing, he is good enough to have students of his own. None of this sounds to me like it's outside his current Sealing abilities, more just that biosealing is extremely dangerous, which we knew. I mean, Sealing itself is already really dangerous.

And as far as I can tell no one is advocating we start doing it right now. It isn't worth the investment in MedKnow yet and we have easier/more useful Sealing to do first anyways. I'm just saying it would just be convenient if once we were ready to investigate it, we could just use the notes instead of having to train with Orochimaru
 
Picture these scenarios:

- You have two plans, plan A and plan B. Every voter who votes A votes against B, and vice versa. They have 20 voters each, and are at +0 both.
Then plan C comes along 5 minutes before the tally is over. It gets a +1. Should C win? Hell no.

- You have four plans - A, B, C and D. Each voter votes for one plan and against all three other plans, and they are split equally. There are 20 voters. Each plan is at -10 score. Does this mean they should all be disregarded? Now, this is more of a criticism of "voting against" itself conceptually, admittedly, but it does apply against your argument as well.
I was picturing there being fewer against votes, but you are right that I didn't account for strategic voting, which I should have, especially given I have already said that strategic voting is my primary concern with score voting. So fair point.

(My technical completionist notes that this is much of the advantage of score estimation methods like the Wilson interval, which can pretty much be thought of as a generalization that interpolates between 0/1 approval voting and -1/+1 approval voting.)



In appreciation for your example failure cases, here is an example failure case for IRV:

First, Plan A is proposed, and 6 people vote for it.
  • 6 votes: A
Then Plan B is proposed, and three people previously voting for A, as well as two new people, change to B > A.
  • 3 votes: A
  • 5 votes: B > A
It is clear that B will win, as is preferred to A by simple majority, and if every new person has B > A then we would at minimum expect A to lose.

Now Plan C is proposed, and three people previously voting for B > A, as well as one new person, change to C > B > A.
  • 3 votes: A
  • 2 votes: B > A
  • 4 votes: C > B > A
This voting is consistent with C > B > A, and C is plurality and likely one voter update off majority. As was argued before, A should definitely lose. So B is a plausible winner, but C would be preferred if you want to compensate for the disadvantage of late votes.

Instead what happens is that C doesn't have an immediate majority, so B is eliminated, so A wins.

IRV is fucky.
 
Ah, good. That was the goal.


Vacuum Step is like Substitution in that it won't accept 'invalid paths'. Chakra be chakra, so 'invalid path' is a wooly and ill-defined thing that generally means 'anything that isn't traveling from point A to point B', or maybe 'anything that tries to weaponize this jutsu.' I don't recall the exact wording, but Jiraiya previously told Hazō that paths which slam into something are not valid and that starting/ending in midair is not valid. (Pretty sure I have that right, but I'm open to being corrected.)
What about slamming into something the user is not aware of? Say, a 5SBed wire.
 
We should at least snap Mari out of her daze and get her opinion first. Oro is temporarily busy with experiments, and Mari shouldn't take too long to recover. although her first few words after snapping out might not be rational. so giving her a bit more time after that too

What NOT to do:
- Ask for help with the Dragons.
- Ask for help on the Great Seal

These have the potential to end in disaster as Dragons interest him greatly. He could sabotage plans or the seal itself to get more materials.
since he's smart, that would only happen if he thinks the dragons aren't a threat to everything.

I imagine that we already have all the collaboration with jiraiya notes. making them redundant.
tsunade is a saint. so i'd imagine she will have shared a lot of her findings already as well
 
Last edited:
I think that went pretty well and am glad we didn't just roll over to appease Mr. Evil. The stated payment seems reasonable and easy enough to protect, and it seems like a good hook to say if you want more of those...

(I have realized reading this chapter that in the source material Orochimaru is extremely well versed in knowledge about the world and its myths—this is pretty much his thing, being the guy who wants to know everything with a world-spanning underground, an encyclopedic knowledge of jutsu, and a bunch of ancient tools of myth. So while Occam's Razor suggests Orochimaru was telling the truth in claiming we are lying about the Great Seal, it's also plausible that he does know more than he says and for some reason doesn't want to get involved. But I don't really see why it would be more risky to ask for his help if that was the case. Certainly if the whole help-the-evil-people-for-eventual-good thing was to ever make sense, saving the world from destruction by faulty seal is a good place to use it.)
 
Last edited:
draft out a contract with Kabuto after he leaves with it to do science things
f he doesn't do that, then Oro's not getting any of the other sweet unique dragon goodies we have stored on the 7th Path
This would require changing the existing terms. The state of the current terms is that we rent Oro all the dragon items after bringing them back, thereby implying we would bring them back soon. If we negotiate such terms with Kabuto after Oro leaves, Oro might get pissed
"Fine. Two weeks. I'll want the same for the rest of the items when you bring them back." He turned back to the box.

edit:
if we do go the route of asking for more shinies. things that oro can give us that doesn't take up much of his time risk his annoyance less. we already know some shinies from previous basement adventure as ideas of what he has including sealing journal and meat seal. we know oro has info on the wakahisa dissection that he hasn't told leaf. knowledge on what he's learned in the past and from the final gift programme sound cheap for him to give, if he already has copies of notes saving him scribing time

edit2: being granted free access to his basement lab is also potentially cheap. if kabuto or his other apprentice can guide/supervise us through the safety precautions. but if so dangerous need oro direct supervision more expensive.

edit3: oh the spider eyes. we can get unlimited free food

Edit4: also the knowledge he mentioned at dinner at summons party that he did instead of board games. Can impress and flatter him that we payed attention and are interested
 
Last edited:
Honestly one of the most valuable things we could get from Oro is help with a 7th path chakra farm. That way can take Noburi into the field to refill everyone on demand
 
Honestly one of the most valuable things we could get from Oro is help with a 7th path chakra farm. That way can take Noburi into the field to refill everyone on demand
Do we want to give Oro the idea of looking into nature chakra too deeply? I mean if he finds us useful in the process it could be okay. Or if he already knows
 
Last edited:
Yeah this is 100% the correct play. Custom shinies from Oro are a lot more valuable than the random stuff he has in his pocket

I am not that interested in super shinies.

But asking him for the octocat back would be funny.

And maybe he can tell us how to make dog ninjutsu work in humans.

(Answer: Be a better Technique hacker)
 
Back
Top