Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Sentient Tree]

Does he? And would he be willing to give it up when he can just take our stuff for free?

And can we stop him?

That's why people are hesitant.

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The thing is, Oro's going to get the scales, one way or another. The question is, are we going to get anything in exchange, and how traumatic will it be for us?

Going to him and negotiating gives us the best chance of minimizing damage and even getting something out of the whole thing. Just ignoring him will lead to him showing up and taking the scales, whenever we are least prepared for him. This time he might encounter Kagome along the way, or traumatize Mari further, or drive Akane to suicide because she's not doing too well to begin with and him traumatizing her more could be the tipping point.

Far better to meet him in neutral territory, where we can control who's there and are well prepared.

 

[Raichu1972]

The thing is, Oro's going to get the scales, one way or another. The question is, are we going to get anything in exchange, and how traumatic will it be for us?

Going to him and negotiating gives us the best chance of minimizing damage and even getting something out of the whole thing. Just ignoring him will lead to him showing up and taking the scales, whenever we are least prepared for him. This time he might encounter Kagome along the way, or traumatize Mari further, or drive Akane to suicide because she's not doing too well to begin with and him traumatizing her more could be the tipping point.

Far better to meet him in neutral territory, where we can control who's there and are well prepared.

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All I can say to that is that the last time we tried approaching him in supposedly neutral territory to fend off his dickishness he Took Hazou Out, traumatized Mari, and caused a seemingly permanent rift within the Clan. I'd much prefer to just never interact with him and keep him outside of the story for as long as possible; partly for practical reasons and partly because he just makes it less fun for me.

 

[Oneiros]

All I can say to that is that the last time we tried approaching him in supposedly neutral territory to fend off his dickishness he Took Hazou Out, traumatized Mari, and caused a seemingly permanent rift within the Clan. I'd much prefer to just never interact with him and keep him outside of the story for as long as possible; partly for practical reasons and partly because he just makes it less fun for me.

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Basically my assumption is that since we've made the dragon pieces publicly known and want to invite researchers to study them Oro will just take them any way. To me it feels ignoring the next potential problem because we've made Oro a taboo. Hopefully I'm wrong

 

[ContextBot]

All I can say to that is that the last time we tried approaching him

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Do you mean the party? Because:

we all know Orochimaru does not care and isn't gonna come, he just obtained like dozens of fresh Rock bodies to look at

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Last time we approached him was with Tsunade and Shikamaru.

 

[Raichu1972]

Do you mean the party? Because:


Last time we approached him was with Tsunade and Shikamaru.

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I was talking about the party yeah. We don't have the leverage on Tsunade needed for us to have her babysit us for another Oro meeting, so I'm not really counting that one. We know what happens when Hazou meets with Oro without a babysitter than can threaten Oro alongside; it leads to Oro bullying him into getting what he wants and more. Forgive me if I'd prefer to not try doing that again.

 

[Shrooms]

Do you mean the party? Because:


Last time we approached him was with Tsunade and Shikamaru.

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Even now I would've made that same proclamation tbh

And he still wouldn't have come if the snakes didn't make him. But that does mean random factors like that can play into every decision we make with him

 

[The Chosen One]

If you're not taking questions, then this post does not contain a question, and I'm on break at work and don't have time to check if this has already been discussed, buuut...

It seems to me that if you chain enough LR seals, with some in parallel, and if you can get multiple emitters to shine legibly on multiple detectors in a way that predictably mixes colors, you can get outputs that change based on inputs, i.e. you can design logic gates, and eventually simple computers, that operate independently of a sealmaster. Though it might require messing with expensive prisms, depending on exactly how finicky the detectors are.

 

[eaglejarl]

It occurs to me that I did not mention Mari's eye color in the most recent update and I should have. Her left eye was robin-egg blue and her right eye was leaf green.

 

[Oneiros]

it leads to Oro bullying him into getting what he wants and more. Forgive me if I'd prefer to not try doing that again

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Once again one of the main reasons for my plan is to prevent another event like the party. If the scales are as valuable to Oro as we think they are he's going to come after them. But just saying I don't want to get bullied by Oro isn't a good critique of a plan that's designed to not get bullied by Oro

 

[Raichu1972]

Once again one of the main reasons for my plan is to prevent another event like the party. If the scales are as valuable to Oro as we think they are he's going to come after them. But just saying I don't want to get bullied by Oro isn't a good critique of a plan that's designed to not get bullied by Oro

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I don't doubt that's your plan; I just don't think it will be very successful. Giving a bully what they want just leads to them taking even more of what they want, until we have nothing left to give. This is why I would and do greatly prefer that if we do have to interact with Oro, it would be secondhand through sources of power that can make him do as they command (Asuma, Tsunade, etc) rather than trying and failing to do so in a direct confrontation.

 

[ContextBot]

I was talking about the party yeah. We don't have the leverage on Tsunade needed for us to have her babysit us for another Oro meeting, so I'm not really counting that one. We know what happens when Hazou meets with Oro without a babysitter than can threaten Oro alongside; it leads to Oro bullying him into getting what he wants and more. Forgive me if I'd prefer to not try doing that again.

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We don't need leverage on Tsunade? What are you talking about? We have the dragon remains, everyone knows this.

Last time Tsunade needed to be convinced that Orochimaru was threatening anyone for clan secrets. She ultimately believed it.

This time we shoul be asking for a big meeting between multiple experts that would include her that respects us as the original owners.

But that does mean random factors like that can play into every decision we make with him

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And I didn't disagree with your plan, just bring Oro once Asuma/Kabuto and Tsunade are onboard. Why is your plan leaving her out anyway?

I have absolutely no idea what you guys think you accomplish by either going full No-Oro or only Oro:

Should more parts be necessary, there are 5 more specimens on the 7th Path... (Subtext: Can you nudge Orochimaru again)

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Just invite him.

 

[Raichu1972]

We don't need leverage on Tsunade? What are you talking about? We have the dragon remains, everyone knows this.

Last time Tsunade needed to be convinced that Orochimaru was threatening anyone for clan secrets. She ultimately believed it.

This time we shoul be asking for a big meeting between multiple experts that would include her that respects us as the original owners.



And I didn't disagree with your plan, just bring Oro once Asuma/Kabuto and Tsunade are onboard. Why is your plan leaving her out anyway?

I have absolutely no idea what you guys think you accomplish by either going full No-Oro or only Oro:



Just invite him.

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...Yes we do? I very strongly remember Shikamaru needing to threaten to essentially dissolve the village to make her take us seriously enough to come babysit. It's not a matter of believing or not; it's a matter of her thinking "oh yeah there's no way he'll try and coerce you into doing this, and if he does it must be because you agreed to it like a fool"; she doesn't take the threat he poses to us seriously because of her own existing bias towards him, alongside the reputation he's cultivated with her. Assuming that she'll willingly come along to back us up on this seems like a poor assumption imo.

Edit: To clarify, she can believe that we think Oro is a threat, but that doesn't mean she will, nor does it mean that she will intervene on our behalf.

 

[roobee]

We can't really create coherent/directed light sources. Do you have examples of strongly-directional light in the setting at present? What situation are you thinking of where this would come up, which wouldn't be addressed by how well-lit the seal element is?

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Well now that the seal details are revealed and are different than I thought they were. No I don't have any situations in mind for directed light. I'm assuming when you say coherent you mean directed instead.

Heck, the other question at hand is whether it's even necessary to explicitly say, or if EJ will just enact "continue previous plan" by default unless a lot of new votes come in.

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The default is that voting resets every update

"Continue previous plan" has served us fairly well over the years.

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QMs ignore titles, only the body of plans are used. So voting "continue previous plan" is actually just saying "write whatever you want". "Continue previous plan" title plus "continue previous plan" repeated as a body might work though

Edit:

she doesn't take the threat he poses to us seriously because of her own existing bias towards him, alongside the reputation he's cultivated with her

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Or maybe she has a more accurate understanding of him

 

[eaglejarl]

QMs ignore titles, only the body of plans are used. So voting "continue previous plan" is actually just saying "write whatever you want". "Continue previous plan" title plus "continue previous plan" repeated as a body might work though

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We try not to be dicks. If I saw a winning vote for 'Continue Previous Plan', I would write the previous plan. The reason we ignore titles is because we don't want it to be a backdoor way of sneaking more words into the plan.

 

[eaglejarl]

Uncle Oro

• arrange a meeting with Oro and have a SC go
• Tell him of our ambush that killed a dragon
• We managed to obtain some exotic material that Orochimaru might be interested in
  • Give him a scale as a gift
    • This is a gift freely given. If our dear Uncle is interested in acquiring more of them our most trusted ally Kumokōgō has additional materiel. We are willing to sell additional pieces for a price to be negotiated with Kumokōgō witnessing the negotiations.
    • She will not allow them to leave her influence until (double the amount of time we expect a snake to make it to Arachnid territory)
    • We definitely think that after he examines the scale he will be interested in more. Plus this is strong evidence that the great seal is real.

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This definitely sounds like an interesting meeting. Not saying whether it will / won't go your way, but definitely interesting.

 

[Lysbeth Succubus]

Speaking as a stupid American, what was this?

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Well, in a nutshell, Margaret Thatcher (British PM from 1979 to 1990) was a proponent of "if the poor have nothing that means the economy is working" economics, with a hefty dose of "welfare is useless" and "Keynes? I 'ardly know 'er!"
She more than doubled unemployment and created incredibly stark disparity in the UK by deregulating everything she could and never caving in to the demands of the poor. Then she died in the early 2010's and some people are still rejoicing about it

 

[roobee]

If I saw a winning vote for 'Continue Previous Plan', I would write the previous plan.

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Ah. But that's an exception to the rule right? Cuz previously you said something like if I vote "buy a youth suit" without a body it wouldn't count

 

[ContextBot]

...Yes we do?

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No we don't.
It's a different situation. This time we aren't sitting around with nebulous accusation, but a bunch of physical objects. If they vanish, Orochimaru is the first person to be questioned.

Shikamaru forced the issue after she said this:

"He wouldn't do that."

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Then she was serious about the whole affair:

"Answer him, Oro. Do you think you're too good for Leaf? Think carefully, because I already said I'm in a bad mood."

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"Good. Then repeat after me: I, Orochimaru of the Sannin, promise that I will never extract clan secrets from a Leaf ninja without their consent or against their wishes."

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[eaglejarl]

Ah. But that's an exception to the rule right? Cuz previously you said something like if I vote "buy a youth suit" without a body it wouldn't count

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Sounds right.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

If you're not taking questions, then this post does not contain a question, and I'm on break at work and don't have time to check if this has already been discussed, buuut...

It seems to me that if you chain enough LR seals, with some in parallel, and if you can get multiple emitters to shine legibly on multiple detectors in a way that predictably mixes colors, you can get outputs that change based on inputs, i.e. you can design logic gates, and eventually simple computers, that operate independently of a sealmaster. Though it might require messing with expensive prisms, depending on exactly how finicky the detectors are.

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You can create a NOT gate with a green LR, a green HOWS, and some other non-green LR. You set things up so the LR sees the HOWS and the output of the non-green LR. When the non-green LR is not triggered, the system will output light (1). When the non-green LR is triggered, the system will not output light (mixed with green disqualifies activation, presumably) which is equivalent to 0.

An OR gate is easy: two LRs with outputs that point at the same LR. If either or both activates, the output LR activates.

You get a NOR gate by connecting the output of an OR gate to the input of a NOT gate. As noted upthread somewhere, NOR gates are functionally complete and you can derive a complete computer from them.

Hazo will not make the intuitive realizations necessarily about binary math etc. to make this useful, but it is strictly possible. The main issue is that they might wear out quickly: we only get a hundred-odd activations out of a storage seal, and transistors turn on and off a lot.

 

[Black King]

Going to him and negotiating gives us the best chance of minimizing damage and even getting something out of the whole thing.

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I disagree tbh and we have no proof this is true.

Just ignoring him will lead to him showing up and taking the scales, whenever we are least prepared for him.

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idk Last time we ignored him, it worked for us. In fact we got in trouble specifically because we did not ignore him and invited him to a party.

It's really frustrating when I get comments like this when my post is inherently addressing this issue.

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You did address the comments...but it was not convincing enough to assuage at the very least my own concerns. If others don't vote for it, then they may be in the same boat.

Now if you had Tsunade and Shikamaru and Asuma there...maybe. I'd still say no, as interacting with homicidal mad scientists who can kill us by glancing at us isn't a thing I want to do often. But at least I'd consider it.

 

[FaintlySorcerous]

Now if you had Tsunade and Shikamaru and Asuma there...maybe. I'd still say no, as interacting with homicidal mad scientists who can kill us by glancing at us isn't a thing I want to do often. But at least I'd consider it.

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Do we know anyone in the village other than Orochimaru who would be interested in researching the Dragonbits?

If we can get Asuma to sign off on a research program etc. then we can just bind Orochimaru to it, or, if we're feeling nice, hand him a small quantity of material while making it clear that he can go through the approved procedure for more.

If he's literally the only interested party then I don't think that we're going to get anyone else interested in backing us up.

 

[Shrooms]

We don't need leverage on Tsunade? What are you talking about? We have the dragon remains, everyone knows this.

Last time Tsunade needed to be convinced that Orochimaru was threatening anyone for clan secrets. She ultimately believed it.

This time we shoul be asking for a big meeting between multiple experts that would include her that respects us as the original owners.



And I didn't disagree with your plan, just bring Oro once Asuma/Kabuto and Tsunade are onboard. Why is your plan leaving her out anyway?

I have absolutely no idea what you guys think you accomplish by either going full No-Oro or only Oro:



Just invite him.

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I don't personally mind interacting with Oro if we do it carefully, all the chapters he's in are awesome. But the discourse around him is always really frustrating so I would rather just wait til people feel it's safer so we don't have to bicker about it endlessly. There are potentially dangerous things I like debating but Oro's motives aren't one of them unfortunately

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[The Chosen One]

Hazo will not make the intuitive realizations necessarily about binary math etc. to make this useful, but it is strictly possible. The main issue is that they might wear out quickly: we only get a hundred-odd activations out of a storage seal, and transistors turn on and off a lot.

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Even if he might not intuit logic gates etc, I wonder if it would be too far of a leap to develop a ninja cipher system where some set of primary colors represent numbers, and some set of secondary or tertiary colors represent those numbers added together, which can be relayed back into a series of primary colors and iterated with place values...you could physically move some mirrors into place to input the previous output...I think a fairly robust quaternary adding machine could be made fairly compact with this seal.

Also, if the detector can tell the difference between, say, a pure Yellow wavelength, vs a combined Red/Green wavelength that only appears the same color to the human eye, then you could easily get base-10 input and output right off the bat...but that would require a) quite a lot of LR seals running in parallel, b) in- and out-of-universe answers to a couple physics questions we're not asking and worst of all, c) collaboration with one or more cheating-eye-havers.

 

[Black King]

Do we know anyone in the village other than Orochimaru who would be interested in researching the Dragonbits?

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I don't think anyone can.

If he's literally the only interested party then I don't think that we're going to get anyone else interested in backing us up.

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Maybe. But backing us up would be more like... "make sure he doesn't kill us/force us to give it to him for free."