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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Paperclipped said:
Could you write up the math on these by the way? I haven't gone through it myself.
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A few concerns were brought up when the Air Tunnel seals were proposed.

  1. But the air it has to store on the way down is way too much! It won't be able to fit!

    Our best measuring stick for storing a gas is Implosion Seals. With a radius of 1-20 m, an Implosion Seal is capable of storing (V = (4/3)πr^3) between 4.2 m^3 and 33510 m^3 of atmosphere pressure air. We'll use 33510 m^3 as our absolute maximum and aim to be well below it.

    Okay, so now we have our maximum volume to store. We are currently operating under the premise that we are staying within the troposphere, so we'll use 12 km as our maximum operating height. By dividing 33510 m^3 by 12000 m, we get 2.8 m^2. So long as no one seal has an absorption area of 2.8 m^2 when dropped from <=12 km, they won't exceed our observed maximum air storage of 33510 m^3.

  2. Okay, so it's probably not too MUCH air, but it's going to have to absorb it too quickly! It won't be able to keep up!

    For this one, we're going to have to get into the actual payload that is being dropped. The current plan is to use Hazo's Earthshaping jutsu at maximum volume (16 m^3) in order to merge sealed chunks of granite 12 km above the ground into a rectangular prism. Granite has a density of 2700 kg/m^3, so 16 m^3 of it will have a mass of 43,200 kg and be 1.67 x 1.67 x 5.74 meters.

    When you don't have to worry about air resistance, you get a neat equation for finding the velocity of a free falling object after it falls d distance. (v = sqrt(2gd) ) We are, perhaps foolishly, assuming that gravity is 9.81 m/s^2. This means that after falling for 12 km, the object has a velocity of 485 m/s.

    We calculated that maximum area of our seal can be 2.8 m^2, the current size of the bottom of our projectile. Since this is the absolute maximum, let's split it into 4, just to be on the safe side. This means that each seal will cover an area of 0.7 m^2. When traveling at the maximum velocity, 485 m/s, that seal would have to absorb 340 m^3/s. This is orders of magnitude less than a 20 m Implosion Seal's instantaneous storage of 33510 m^3.

  3. Okay, fine. It can store enough air and it can store it fast enough. How much damage does it do?

    ....That's a hard one. We have a mass and final velocity, so we can calculate the kinetic energy in the payload. (E = (1/2)mv^2 ) Our 43,200 kg payload traveling at 485 m/s will have 5.08e+9 Joules of kinetic energy. Is that sufficient to penetrate or damage Hidden Rock's underground areas? Only time will tell. If it requires additional energy, we can attempt to scale even higher in the atmosphere with the proper precautions.
Air density is much lower at high altitude, so the total amount of air absorbed by the seals is actually lower than calculated. This means that the area covered by one could theoretically be larger, though there are few benefits to actually doing so.
 
@ProperAttorney

Thanks. Some notes.
  1. Storage seals store 100kg max, so that's 432 storage seals worth of granite. Possible, sure, and quite realistically, but it's worth noting the effort it would require.
  2. 12 km is higher than a normal person can breathe unassisted, likely you'd have to do it lower.
  3. Terminal velocity for that object using your numbers and this calculator for laziness is ~500m/s, and could be easily increased above that by rounding the edges.
  4. This will be a pain to aim.
Overall I see little reason you'd need the seal for speed, since the resulting velocity when dropped from that height or lower is unlikely to be changed by a great factor, and you could just make up the difference with a bigger payload. I do however see why you might use the seal to prevent the projectile from breaking up against the air.
 
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faflec said:
Are we assuming that Hazou will be acting as the tracker for the Otter Scroll mission? I haven't checked but this may end up being pointless since Hazou may not go.
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Determining whether or not Hazou has the tools to help substantially with the mission is crucial to determining whether or not he can go.
ProperAttorney said:
A few concerns were brought up when the Air Tunnel seals were proposed.

  1. But the air it has to store on the way down is way too much! It won't be able to fit!

    Our best measuring stick for storing a gas is Implosion Seals. With a radius of 1-20 m, an Implosion Seal is capable of storing (V = (4/3)πr^3) between 4.2 m^3 and 33510 m^3 of atmosphere pressure air. We'll use 33510 m^3 as our absolute maximum and aim to be well below it.

    Okay, so now we have our maximum volume to store. We are currently operating under the premise that we are staying within the troposphere, so we'll use 12 km as our maximum operating height. By dividing 33510 m^3 by 12000 m, we get 2.8 m^2. So long as no one seal has an absorption area of 2.8 m^2 when dropped from <=12 km, they won't exceed our observed maximum air storage of 33510 m^3.

  2. Okay, so it's probably not too MUCH air, but it's going to have to absorb it too quickly! It won't be able to keep up!

    For this one, we're going to have to get into the actual payload that is being dropped. The current plan is to use Hazo's Earthshaping jutsu at maximum volume (16 m^3) in order to merge sealed chunks of granite 12 km above the ground into a rectangular prism. Granite has a density of 2700 kg/m^3, so 16 m^3 of it will have a mass of 43,200 kg and be 1.67 x 1.67 x 5.74 meters.

    When you don't have to worry about air resistance, you get a neat equation for finding the velocity of a free falling object after it falls d distance. (v = sqrt(2gd) ) We are, perhaps foolishly, assuming that gravity is 9.81 m/s^2. This means that after falling for 12 km, the object has a velocity of 485 m/s.

    We calculated that maximum area of our seal can be 2.8 m^2, the current size of the bottom of our projectile. Since this is the absolute maximum, let's split it into 4, just to be on the safe side. This means that each seal will cover an area of 0.7 m^2. When traveling at the maximum velocity, 485 m/s, that seal would have to absorb 340 m^3/s. This is orders of magnitude less than a 20 m Implosion Seal's instantaneous storage of 33510 m^3.

  3. Okay, fine. It can store enough air and it can store it fast enough. How much damage does it do?

    ....That's a hard one. We have a mass and final velocity, so we can calculate the kinetic energy in the payload. (E = (1/2)mv^2 ) Our 43,200 kg payload traveling at 485 m/s will have 5.08e+9 Joules of kinetic energy. Is that sufficient to penetrate or damage Hidden Rock's underground areas? Only time will tell. If it requires additional energy, we can attempt to scale even higher in the atmosphere with the proper precautions.
Air density is much lower at high altitude, so the total amount of air absorbed by the seals is actually lower than calculated. This means that the area covered by one could theoretically be larger, though there are few benefits to actually doing so.
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Benchmarks:

This is roughly 1.2 tons of TNT. Still ~20 times smaller than even the smallest nuclear weapons, so we can't rightly call it that, and ~20,000 times smaller than the ones deployed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These aren't city destroyers.

In terms of destruction, they're about halfway between a Tomahawk missile (0.5 ton TNT) and 5000 pounds of ANFO (2 ton TNT). For reference:

Tomahawk:
View: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcyvo

ANFO:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8FLGuH9lpY

Bad news:
  • This is tough to set up. Requires lots of seals, requires lots of Tunneler's Friends for air supply climbing that high, requires Akane to supply heat, requires a lot of chakra via Noburi for Earthshaping
  • Our references don't show enough penetration. If you look at the Mythbusters ANFO video, you see that the crater is maybe 15ft deep at most -- far shallower than tunneling ninjutsu would most likely be able to reach.
  • Targeting is very hard even without air resistance.
  • This is basically what Shikamaru feared with the Rocks Fall plan on the bridge.
Good news:
  • This is scalable and parallelizable. We can set up dozens of the payloads on 5SB platforms, then release the seals on the platforms (e.g with clones) to deploy the payload.
  • We get to discover some interesting physics about the planet's rotation (or not!) if we actually test dropping stuff from that high up.
  • Kinetic weapons are well known for getting much, much more penetration than explosives.
    • If we can somehow add explosives too, we basically have modern bunker busters -- heavy kinetics to get in + explosions once in.
    • I could compare it to this one (GBU-28 - Wikipedia), which would suggest perhaps 100-200ft of penetration?
Other notes:
  • Using a higher density stone or embedding higher density chunks of metal in the projectiles would increase damage.
  • Accelerating the projectile more would help
    • Perhaps through unsealing air behind it to take advantage of air pressure effects (this makes projectile orientation matter!)
    • Perhaps through impulse seals like Rocket Boots? Deployment mechanisms are an issue.
  • This is waaayyy more effective against a non-underground city. If this pans out, we could plausibly use it to level Cloud (assuming they aren't patrolling 10km up).
 
Veedrac said:
@ProperAttorney

Thanks. Some notes.
  1. Storage seals store 100kg max, so that's 432 storage seals worth of granite. Possible, sure, and quite realistically, but it's worth noting the effort it would require.
  2. 12 km is higher than a normal person can breathe unassisted, likely you'd have to do it lower.
  3. Terminal velocity for that object using your numbers and this calculator for laziness is ~500m/s, and could be easily increased above that by rounding the edges.
  4. This will be a pain to aim.
Overall I see little reason you'd need the seal for speed, since the resulting velocity when dropped from that height or lower is unlikely to be changed by a great factor, and you could just make up the difference with a bigger payload. I do however see why you might use the seal to prevent the projectile from breaking up against the air.
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Good points!

  1. Yes. It's possible to make much larger single use seals, but those would require further research. It'll take some effort with our current resources but as you said, it's still realistically done.
  2. Regular Tunneler's Friends can allow us to breathe that high up.
  3. Without any air resistance, we reach 485 m/s, so it's not possible that we reach 500 m/s with air resistance edit: at the same height. We would have to go even higher than the 12 km to reach terminal velocity, at which point the Air Tunnel seals would provide an even larger velocity.
  4. If you stick Air Tunnel seals on the sides too, you don't have to worry about drift due to the wind. Just have to be very careful about going straight up. Can test your aim by sticking an Air Tunnel seal around a rock, dropping it, and seeing if it lands on target.
 
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Paperclipped said:
Determining whether or not Hazou has the tools to help substantially with the mission is crucial to determining whether or not he can go.

Benchmarks:

This is roughly 1.2 tons of TNT. Still ~20 times smaller than even the smallest nuclear weapons, so we can't rightly call it that, and ~20,000 times smaller than the ones deployed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These aren't city destroyers.

In terms of destruction, they're about halfway between a Tomahawk missile (0.5 ton TNT) and 5000 pounds of ANFO (2 ton TNT). For reference:

Tomahawk:
View: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcyvo

ANFO:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8FLGuH9lpY

Bad news:
  • This is tough to set up. Requires lots of seals, requires lots of Tunneler's Friends for air supply climbing that high, requires Akane to supply heat, requires a lot of chakra via Noburi for Earthshaping
  • Our references don't show enough penetration. If you look at the Mythbusters ANFO video, you see that the crater is maybe 15ft deep at most -- far shallower than tunneling ninjutsu would most likely be able to reach.
  • Targeting is very hard even without air resistance.
  • This is basically what Shikamaru feared with the Rocks Fall plan on the bridge.
Good news:
  • This is scalable and parallelizable. We can set up dozens of the payloads on 5SB platforms, then release the seals on the platforms (e.g with clones) to deploy the payload.
  • We get to discover some interesting physics about the planet's rotation (or not!) if we actually test dropping stuff from that high up.
  • Kinetic weapons are well known for getting much, much more penetration than explosives.
    • If we can somehow add explosives too, we basically have modern bunker busters -- heavy kinetics to get in + explosions once in.
    • I could compare it to this one (GBU-28 - Wikipedia), which would suggest perhaps 100-200ft of penetration?
Other notes:
  • Using a higher density stone or embedding higher density chunks of metal in the projectiles would increase damage.
  • Accelerating the projectile more would help
    • Perhaps through unsealing air behind it to take advantage of air pressure effects (this makes projectile orientation matter!)
    • Perhaps through impulse seals like Rocket Boots? Deployment mechanisms are an issue.
  • This is waaayyy more effective against a non-underground city. If this pans out, we could plausibly use it to level Cloud (assuming they aren't patrolling 10km up).
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Good analysis! Yes, a singular payload is unlikely to destroy Rock. It's thankfully easy to "reload" the payload via reverse summoning. Carpet bombing with smaller projectiles is going to be massively destructive, yes.
 
ProperAttorney said:
Without any air resistance, we reach 485 m/s, so it's not possible that we reach 500 m/s with air resistance edit: at the same height. We would have to go even higher than the 12 km to reach terminal velocity, at which point the Air Tunnel seals would provide an even larger velocity.
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The point is that if you're not limited by terminal velocity, air tunnel seals only are a marginal benefit. Thus there's not much need to invent them.

@Paperclipped is right that because this is a kinetic weapon, it's going to be very good at penetration compared to similar yield explosives. The problem is that this is the entirely of the damage it will do, straight down in one small spot. It is like we'd be shooting Rock with a bullet, not throwing them a grenade. This means the accuracy we need in order to do enough damage to justify the investment is extremely high. Carpet bombing with bullets is infeasible.

I'm not convinced you can just Tunneler's Friend the breathing problem away given it's an air pressure problem. You need, I would think, concentrated oxygen. Climbing quickly exaggerates the adaptation problem. Climbing slowly is infeasible due to resource and safety constraints.
 
ProperAttorney said:
The Air Tunnel seal has been discussed a lot the past few days in the Discord (mostly by me). Long story short, the math works out that it's reasonable to make a seal that will continuously seal the air below a dropped projectile. Without air, there's no air resistance, and suddenly we have Rods of God that can harm Hidden Rock.
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The war with Rock all started with Rockfall attack on Leaf.
Now It's Leaf's Turn to do Rockfall.
Who's the master of Rockfall, now?
 
TFW you realize SINs were successfully tested in 2019 (!!) and still haven't been used (!!!).

Throw some at Rock. That's half of the stated reason they were made. SIN-9 or so is probably safe enough.
 
Veedrac said:
There are other forms of bombardment I also think could be effective, but they're based on automated seal-powered reactionless propulsion, which the hivemind has pretty conclusively dismissed, even though it would totally be doable.
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What are these other forms? What has hivemind said that dismisses them?

Veedrac said:
I do however see why you might use the seal to prevent the projectile from breaking up against the air.
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What if we made the nose of the rock out of force walls? An invulnerable needle with all that energy will go wayyyy deeper than just granite, right? And wouldn't the air friction be really low too?

Veedrac said:
TFW you realize SINs were successfully tested in 2019 (!!) and still haven't been used (!!!).
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Right! Why haven't we done this?
 
Veedrac said:
TFW you realize SINs were successfully tested in 2019 (!!) and still haven't been used (!!!).

Throw some at Rock. That's half of the stated reason they were made. SIN-9 or so is probably safe enough.
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I keep saying this but the paranoia train keeps on screaming :p
 
Hazo's a bit like James Holden. His sealcraft is hardly legendary or the most powerful in the setting, and yet somehow Hazo and his team managed to change the fates of nations.

Similarly, the Rocinante is hardly the most powerful warship in The Expanse, and yet it's all in the space battles that matter, and not in any space battles in which they have no chance in hell.
 
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Veedrac said:
The point is that if you're not limited by terminal velocity, air tunnel seals only are a marginal benefit. Thus there's not much need to invent them.

@Paperclipped is right that because this is a kinetic weapon, it's going to be very good at penetration compared to similar yield explosives. The problem is that this is the entirely of the damage it will do, straight down in one small spot. It is like we'd be shooting Rock with a bullet, not throwing them a grenade. This means the accuracy we need in order to do enough damage to justify the investment is extremely high. Carpet bombing with bullets is infeasible.

I'm not convinced you can just Tunneler's Friend the breathing problem away given it's an air pressure problem. You need, I would think, concentrated oxygen. Climbing quickly exaggerates the adaptation problem. Climbing slowly is infeasible due to resource and safety constraints.
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Drag coefficients increase rather rapidly once you approach supersonic velocities, potentially by an order of magnitude. The calculator your using isn't taking that into account.
 
Paperclipped said:
Kinetic weapons are well known for getting much, much more penetration than explosives.
  • If we can somehow add explosives too, we basically have modern bunker busters -- heavy kinetics to get in + explosions once in.
  • I could compare it to this one (GBU-28 - Wikipedia), which would suggest perhaps 100-200ft of penetration?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Veedrac said:
TFW you realize SINs were successfully tested in 2019 (!!) and still haven't been used (!!!).

Throw some at Rock. That's half of the stated reason they were made. SIN-9 or so is probably safe enough.
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Are there any technical reasons why we could not slap SINS onto/into a kinetic piercing weapon as long as the seals themselves were sufficiently physically far apart from one another? I would assume such a device would look something like a missile so hopefully we can use our insights from our glider program to know about the benefits of using fins to help with flight stabilization to aid in staying on target.

Although I have to wonder if using WMDs of any kind really coincides with the spirit of Uplift. Maybe we could ask Asuma if we should do a public weapons test to prove we could kill them all so we can force an unconditional surrender without loss of life? However that has the problem of encouraging a new arms race for WMDs over skywalkers as soon as the war "ends".

Another option would be to keep WMDs as a reserve and focus on efforts instead on esoteric ways of winning the war. If Leaf's strategy revolves around breaking the enemies' will to fight... why not develop a technique that does precisely that? We already know Mari has a genjutsu she uses to calm Kagome down in stressful situations. Perhaps we could find a way to make a large scale version of it. Alternatively we could see if Ino thinks it would be possible for Leaf to develop mass mind control, induced extreme apathy, or something else along those lines to save the enemy combatants from death and removing them from the conflict while keeping them alive.

Surely removing aspects of someone's identity is preferable to straight up murdering them when they want to kill you and you can't simply disengage or otherwise take them down nonlethally.
 
Veedrac said:
TFW you realize SINs were successfully tested in 2019 (!!) and still haven't been used (!!!).

Throw some at Rock. That's half of the stated reason they were made. SIN-9 or so is probably safe enough.
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We tested lower level SINs recently; SIN-5s also caused sealing failures. They're no good.

...also, personally, I think the winning move is just to poison Rock's water supply with something that affects ninja more than civilians.
 
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Cariyaga said:
We tested lower level SINs recently; SIN-5s also caused sealing failures. They're no good.

...also, personally, I think the winning move is just to poison Rock's water supply with something that affects ninja more than civilians.
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We don't need to do that. We just need to show that their fortress can be breached, and that's there's nothing they can do about it.
 
I'm down for bombarding Rock but don't think Asuma will go for it. We already gave him ways to invade them with zero casualties and where ignored. Think we will get the same results suggesting new strat

Cariyaga said:
We tested lower level SINs recently; SIN-5s also caused sealing failures. They're no good.
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I personally think that we are to risk adverse to sealing failures in general. Especially considering that Arkadia (sp?) was able to research them and use them in combat safely. Plus the fact that the watchers aren't real. But I know that there would be huge pushback to weaponizing them and it's not worth the hassle
 
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