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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Since we are about to be healed I want to try to generate a discussion of what goals we want to achieve in the next year. If we have a at least a vague idea of where we want to accomplish we can generally tend to steer in that direction. There are no bad ideas so let's get to brainstorming!
 
Eisenhelm said:
Inferno vulpix as an exelent post about what uplift is, i just can't seem to find it.
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This?
Inferno Vulpix said:
Speaking personally, Uplift is... the surpassing of the challenge inherent in the setting. Marked for Death is a deathworld, no two ways about it, ordinary people live in fear of horrible monsters which only the weakest of which they stand a chance against. All of humanity is wrapped up in extremely oppressive regimes that treat civilians as basically subhuman, and all those regimes are constantly at war with each other even though they're actively failing to fight back the darkness that is the horrible monsters chipping away at the sum total of humanity. If nothing changes, the story of the Elemental Nations will be a dark and bloody world which, tragically, could have maybe been saved, but instead of throwing kunai at monsters humanity kept holding them to each other's throats, all too happy to cut each other open and be consumed by the darkness. A memento to the darker side of humanity, our failures and vices, a strong argument that happy endings just aren't in the cards, aren't in humanity's nature, an accusation that hope for a brighter future is fundamentally and irrevocably the naive daydreams of someone who will one day be crushed under the harsh weight of reality.

Uplift is taking that, the worst possible world, a world writing the story of senseless oblivion, and pulling it out of the void. Uplift is creating cooperate-cooperate out of defect-defect, it's the bucking of the trend of sabotage, paranoia, and hatred. It's the dream of a humanity united against the darkness, being made manifest before your very eyes. It's the trend of things getting better instead of worse, of liberty and human dignity emerging from the muck and grime of serfdom. It's the march of technology, it's children not losing their parents, it's villages not going silent in the middle of the night as an apex predator snuffs out all life within. It's the counterargument, a story of virtue prevailing over vice, of light emerging from the darkest places, a declaration that humanity is fundamentally good and that we can make happy endings if we want to.

And it's also the victory of the game. The good end, won by making the right decisions at the right places and beating every boss fight. As a member of the hivemind, as a player of Marked for Death, the game is not won until Uplift is complete and I have no intention of losing. The paragraphs above detail how Uplift personally resonates with me, how taking a nightmarish deathworld and fixing everything appeals to my sensibilities, but it's also true that this is a game I'm playing with the rest of y'all and it's just common sense to play to win.
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Oneiros said:
Since we are about to be healed I want to try to generate a discussion of what goals we want to achieve in the next year. If we have a at least a vague idea of where we want to accomplish we can generally tend to steer in that direction. There are no bad ideas so let's get to brainstorming!
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  • New summon scroll (Otter/Bear/Cat/???)
  • Improve Noburi's self esteem
  • Date Snowflake
  • New seal variants (storage scroll variants?)
  • Delet Rock
  • Delet Cloud
  • Acquire Wakahisa slave intern
  • Befriend Ami
  • Become mini-feudal lord by clearing farmland and settling Goketsu civilians there in exchange for a percentage of profit (with summons to clear and MEW to secure, isn't this repeatable profit and Uplift at same time? And more food to train more ninja.)
  • Set up a system of loyal civilians that allow us to functionally bypass the Merchant Council restrictions. By empowering trusted civilians and having them use our ninja-powered labor for them, our civilians outcompete other civilians via services we technically offer to any civilian. And they compensate us very generously in return. It's shady af but so is blackmail and seduction. And there are no laws against civilians giving away money out of gratitude.
  • Commit a small number of wordcount each update to slowly modifying Hazou-pilot's program. For example, if we wanted a higher EQ Hazou-pilot, it's hard to choose high EW actions from plan to plan. Instead we spend 10 words every plan for maybe the next 20 plans to say "In spare moments, Hazou thinks on what others feel and why". 10/300 words every plan and maybe Hazou-pilot is slowly improved. (would that work, QM's?)
 
Buy a youth suit. See if it gives training bonuses
Obtain ninshu powers of chakra
Transplant Hashirama and uchiha cells, unlocking the rinnegan
Create a hive mind with mind jutsu
 
Pharos said:
  • Commit a small number of wordcount each update to slowly modifying Hazou-pilot's program. For example, if we wanted a higher EQ Hazou-pilot, it's hard to choose high EW actions from plan to plan. Instead we spend 10 words every plan for maybe the next 20 plans to say "In spare moments, Hazou thinks on what others feel and why". 10/300 words every plan and maybe Hazou-pilot is slowly improved. (would that work, QM's?)
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I would say not. That's like using weightlifting alone to try to become better at taijutsu. If you want to become better at taijutsu, you need to go out and train with people/pick fights/read really good training manuals so that you have learning experiences to serve as fuel for your training. You don't have to overcome a significant challenge every day to train your EQ, but you do need to do things that would plausibly train it in a real person (and devote IC time to them). Even then, active choices weigh more than passive ones--if you spend ten updates training in being aware of others' needs and then vote in a plan to hug Kei, you will not end up with a particularly sensitive Hazō (if he survives).
 
Pharos said:
  • Become mini-feudal lord by clearing farmland and settling Goketsu civilians there in exchange for a percentage of profit (with summons to clear and MEW to secure, isn't this repeatable profit and Uplift at same time? And more food to train more ninja.)
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This was one of my immediate goals as well. I thought that we could use all of our summons to completely clear wave or some other island of all chakra beast and then declare ourselves rulers of it. Def think it is 100% doable if we get 7th path chakra farm set up
 
Velorien said:
I would say not. That's like using weightlifting alone to try to become better at taijutsu. If you want to become better at taijutsu, you need to go out and train with people/pick fights/read really good training manuals so that you have learning experiences to serve as fuel for your training. You don't have to overcome a significant challenge every day to train your EQ, but you do need to do things that would plausibly train it in a real person (and devote IC time to them). Even then, active choices weigh more than passive ones--if you spend ten updates training in being aware of others' needs and then vote in a plan to hug Kei, you will not end up with a particularly sensitive Hazō (if he survives).
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Fair enough. I guess we have to go back to Heartbreaker training. Have Mari repeatedly provoke and/or destroy us mentally and emotionally until we learn to control our responses. Why'd we stop again anyways? Hazou didn't like who he might become? We've probably downloaded eldritch things since then.

Oneiros said:
This was one of my immediate goals as well. I thought that we could use all of our summons to completely clear wave or some other island of all chakra beast and then declare ourselves rulers of it. Def think it is 100% doable if we get 7th path chakra farm set up
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I was thinking an area closer to Leaf actually. A remote island has less ownership problems but it's own issues. I'm concerned that other clans and the Hokage might see our island as preparations to betray or abandon Leaf. They want us where they can handle us, and see if we're building up a force for a betrayal or coup. We also cannot respond to a threat that appears on our island since we need to be in Leaf most of the time. A hostile clan could show up while we're away and pillage everything anonymously before we can respond. Or even another country's ninja can do so. Or the Akatsuki see a nicely cleared island and move in. I'm simply not sure we can safely keep the island once we have it since we're low on manpower. I'm open to ideas if you think the island can be secured though. A seal trap array probably cannot feasibly cover the perimeter of an entire island given the labor.

Also can we please go back to Heartbreaker training??? Improving Hazou-pilot is like an extra safety net. It's something no amount of FOOMed XP will get us. When we eventually and inevitably fuck up next, we need our last resort of Hazou-pilot to do his very best.
 
Pharos said:
Fair enough. I guess we have to go back to Heartbreaker training. Have Mari repeatedly provoke and/or destroy us mentally and emotionally until we learn to control our responses. Why'd we stop again anyways? Hazou didn't like who he might become? We've probably downloaded eldritch things since then.
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Hazou got into a tizzy over one of her genjutsu IIRC.
 
Pharos said:
I was thinking an area closer to Leaf actually. A remote island has less ownership problems but it's own issues. I'm concerned that other clans and the Hokage might see our island as preparations to betray or abandon Leaf. They want us where they can handle us, and see if we're building up a force for a betrayal or coup. We also cannot respond to a threat that appears on our island since we need to be in Leaf most of the time. A hostile clan could show up while we're away and pillage everything anonymously before we can respond. Or even another country's ninja can do so. Or the Akatsuki see a nicely cleared island and move in. I'm simply not sure we can safely keep the island once we have it since we're low on manpower. I'm open to ideas if you think the island can be secured though. A seal trap array probably cannot feasibly cover the perimeter of an entire island given the labor.
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My idea would just be to find some missing nin and put them in charge of running wave. Or recruit some Isan nin. No reason for us to be involved in the administration. We just go I'm fuck shit up and put someone in charge of the new paradise

Heck the people who used to run wave can still be in charge. They will just be incredibly safe moving forward
 
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RandomOTP said:
In our defense: that was one time, with Snowflake, and we caught it before voting's close!
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AMI: Hazō, my big sister intuition tells me that I must murder you for violating my beloved little sister's body without her consent.

HAZŌ: That was one time, and it was her cognitively-independent shadow clone, and I thought better of it at the last second!

AMI: Oh, never mind, then. Severe maiming will suffice.
 
faflec said:
If possible, could you put the "check with Mari" part to the the very beginning of the plan? It'll help with edge cases where stuff we wouldn't expect to cause issues end up causing issues, in a way that talking to Mari beforehand would prevent.
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Shrooms said:
I am personally ok with where it is
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I'll leave it as-is for now.


_The_Bomb said:
(offscreen) Have Mari make sure the new Gōketsu have sufficient OPSEC skills
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Done. Not Mari specifically, but as a general instruction for Hazou-pilot to delegate at will.


Oneiros said:
@Paperclipped mind asking Asuma to help pay for a dog to go to toad territory so we can participate in future zoo rushes once healed
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Sir Stompy said:
Going on a thousand mile journey to be the Dog ambassador to the Seventh Path United Clans sounds like an adventure to me. I bet lots of other clans have stories to tell. Might be worth playing up that angle. We're probably going to need to win social combat to convince someone, so that's going to have to wait until Hazou isn't a fucking mess.
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Sentient Tree said:
Pretty sure we have a summon who explicitly wants to get away from everything, and thousands of miles away is pretty far from everything. The one that tried to elope, canun or something?
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eaglejarl said:
You did not talk to Cantilever.
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Done. If we want to talk to a Dog one-on-one (which I suspect we may have to), then it could be a scene of its own in a future plan, but I'd be very happy with it being abstracted away too.


eaglejarl said:
Note that the chakra costs given in the rules are averages and approximations -- cf the fact that the summoning costs for your dogs and pangolins don't precisely match what's in the chart. "Substitution costs 14 CP" is an average, and one that we normally don't bother to track in updates because it generally doesn't matter in an engagement as short as most ninja fights. When you're trying to study the precise details of chakra then it matters very much and you start to see this sort of variation.

It's been a long time since we said this, so I probably should have explicitly pointed it out at the bottom of the update, but at least it's here now.
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Hm. Well, thanks to the Central Limit Theorem, if it's sampling from any sensible distribution, the distribution of the average of the samples should tend towards a standard normal, so we hopefully have the tools to figure it out precise averages with enough samples.
eaglejarl said:
Clearly chakra was being extra trollish on this test and required much less chakra per MEW cast than it normally demands.
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That'll throw off the numbers. Still... with enough samples? The "chakra is being very trollish" here seems like it'll make chakra science plans challenging long before we get to any interesting stuff... Is this intentional, and you don't want to write chakra science stuff in general?


Dictator4Hire said:
@Paperclipped if you add in a section to have Hazou read some history and strategy books I'll vote for your plan. I consider that reading essential for our medium term survival and all long term schemes, not just my inclination to share FOOM sooner rather than later.
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Challenge: What is the information you want? I think the best way to get it would be to ask a question to the QMs and include proposed answers so it can be quickly answered through QuINOA


faflec said:
Maybe we could go on morning training with Akane (who trains with Lee) and talk to him while we're having a break?
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Once Hazou is healed, this is a good idea.


Sir Stompy said:
Can we add some things from Discord? First off to maximize brevity XP let's set the plan length to 10 days. I want to check with Kumokugo on how seal training is going. @_The_Bomb wants Mari training the new Gōketsu in OPSEC, or confirming that they already have the necessary skills and @RandomOTP wants more Snowflake and Hazou. Chakra science, OPSEC, and seal training can probably be offscreened. So we have space for a third scene.
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10-14 is meant to allow some flex room if there's a natural cutoff point (e.g. Mist joins the war and sends Team Downfall to Leaf for some joint operation or something). Seal training is going fine iirc, Kumokogo has learned to use seals, and is now teaching Hornets. Chakra science is pretty detailed even if it gets offscreened (it probably will since the commitment ceremony is a big deal), and I would definitely like to get answers on it, and there's probably not room for a fully fleshed out scene.

Sir Stompy said:
I'd suggest sending Hazou on one of those not-dates Keiko goes on all the time with Snowflake. An Instance of Two Individuals Spending a Day Together in Order to Facilitate Greater Mutual Knowledge and Familiarity, Arranged in Anticipation of a Potential Long-Term Relationship. Maybe they could check out the Leaf Public Library or something since they're a buncha neeerds
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Shrooms said:
Also, you are suggesting way too many scenes if there's more dating and conversing with spider wives. Paper is already at 3 (not sure I agree all these things should be offscreen). Just write a new plan if there's new scenes people want.
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RandomOTP said:
That would be a delight. And a cute little throwback to the week they spent combing the Leaf Library, back during the Hag Arc. It was early into Snowflake's existence, and one of my reasons in the initial effortpost of "Why Snowflake May Like Hazou" (an idle headcanon that has since been proven canon).
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Pharos said:
If we want to add Snowflake to Hazou's polycule, Snowflake needs to like and be comfortable with Akane and Ino more than anything. We already know Snowflake likes Hazou and Hazou likes Snowflake -- any real chance for a relationship with Snowflake is built on connecting Snowflake to Akane and Ino.

So for anyone that wants Hazou x Snowflake, I think we should have dates or outings introducing Snowflake to Akane and Ino. More Ino than Akane, but both of them together would be best.
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So first, I'm not confident that Snowflake actually feels anything romantic for Hazou (maayyybe 50% odds? and that's with generous encouragement from ROTP), which seems like the condition for this plan segment making sense. Second, if we did think that was possible, then I agree with @Pharos that a more sensible approach is needed than throwing ourselves bodily at the nearest romantic opportunity. @RandomOTP, as head of the Snowflake-Hazou division, what would you think is a good approach here?


Lord Marshal said:
Would you be willing to add "Try to organize a meeting/communication with the Bear Summoner"? Personally i would like to address Noburi's self-worth before that kaiju hits, but maybe it needs it's own full update.
I would also suggest to add something along the likes of "Be mindful of the communication gap with Lee", otherwise the update could just be Hazou not understanding Rock Lee.
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Here's my preferred approach to contact with the Bear Summoner:
  • Send another letter with a gift attached: some kind of luxury that Mareo almost undoubtedly can't get where he is. In the letter, be open and honest and say that we wouldn't try to pry the Scroll from a living holder who isn't our enemy.
  • Keep sending letters with luxuries attached, keep being open and honest and trying to find ideological connection.
    • Mareo's unlikely to ignore the luxuries and while nothing's strictly stopping him from taking them and burning the letter I think there's good odds he gives them a read anyways. The luxuries and lack of pressure for anything in return make optimal conditions to draw him just that little bit out of his shell.
    • Mareo likely holds ninja society in disdain and left so he wouldn't have to deal with all the violence and murder and stuff. Coincidentally, we're also disgusted with ninja society and all the violence and murder and stuff. There's good odds we'd have a surprising amount in common if we can get him to respond.
  • If we get a response, we can shift into dialogue form, holding a conversation through relay, and eventually we can work up to 'let's meet in person in Bear Country so we can talk easily' where we can show that we in fact were not planning to trap and kill him or whatever.
  • And then if we get that far we just need to become a Seventh Path drinking buddy or whatever and we'll get enough of his story to figure out where we want to go from there.
Mareo's very prickly and withdrawn right now and his initial expectation of us is very negative. Getting into his confidence is going to be a difficult, drawn-out process and we have to take it slow. Our key advantage is our ability to send him luxuries that'll cause him to not ignore the package. Like, he can say all he wants that he's got no interest in paying attention to Hazou, but if he has the slightest chink in his armor that says 'but he's sending me great stuff so I may as well string him along' then we've got something to work with.
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Added a plan of send him a simple letter asking if he'd like to meet over some tea, with a promise that we won't hurt him (not that we could as a semi-crippled chuunin) and some chocolate. Rinse and repeat over time until we have a meeting, I suppose?


Velorien said:
What is the philosophy of Uplift?
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Eisenhelm said:
Inferno vulpix as an exelent post about what uplift is, i just can't seem to find it.
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Inferno Vulpix said:
Speaking personally, Uplift is... the surpassing of the challenge inherent in the setting. Marked for Death is a deathworld, no two ways about it, ordinary people live in fear of horrible monsters which only the weakest of which they stand a chance against. All of humanity is wrapped up in extremely oppressive regimes that treat civilians as basically subhuman, and all those regimes are constantly at war with each other even though they're actively failing to fight back the darkness that is the horrible monsters chipping away at the sum total of humanity. If nothing changes, the story of the Elemental Nations will be a dark and bloody world which, tragically, could have maybe been saved, but instead of throwing kunai at monsters humanity kept holding them to each other's throats, all too happy to cut each other open and be consumed by the darkness. A memento to the darker side of humanity, our failures and vices, a strong argument that happy endings just aren't in the cards, aren't in humanity's nature, an accusation that hope for a brighter future is fundamentally and irrevocably the naive daydreams of someone who will one day be crushed under the harsh weight of reality.

Uplift is taking that, the worst possible world, a world writing the story of senseless oblivion, and pulling it out of the void. Uplift is creating cooperate-cooperate out of defect-defect, it's the bucking of the trend of sabotage, paranoia, and hatred. It's the dream of a humanity united against the darkness, being made manifest before your very eyes. It's the trend of things getting better instead of worse, of liberty and human dignity emerging from the muck and grime of serfdom. It's the march of technology, it's children not losing their parents, it's villages not going silent in the middle of the night as an apex predator snuffs out all life within. It's the counterargument, a story of virtue prevailing over vice, of light emerging from the darkest places, a declaration that humanity is fundamentally good and that we can make happy endings if we want to.

And it's also the victory of the game. The good end, won by making the right decisions at the right places and beating every boss fight. As a member of the hivemind, as a player of Marked for Death, the game is not won until Uplift is complete and I have no intention of losing. The paragraphs above detail how Uplift personally resonates with me, how taking a nightmarish deathworld and fixing everything appeals to my sensibilities, but it's also true that this is a game I'm playing with the rest of y'all and it's just common sense to play to win.
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Alright, tried to condense this down to a component, see below. Feedback always appreciated.

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Paperclipped said:
[X] Action Plan: Steady Progression
Words: 294
  • Intended timeframe: 10-14 days
    • While training Kagome, make seals if possible.
  • Attend Kei and Tenten's Commitment Ceremony:
    • Ask the Arachnids and Dogs if they know any especially pointy objects for a gift.
  • Find an hour or two to talk with Rock Lee.
    • Check with Mari first.
    • Ask him to explain the philosophy of Youth as it's taught at the Churches and Academy.
    • Explain Uplift in turn:
      • Stopping the decline of the world, and all the threats to its continued existence.
      • Making the world better for everyone. Not just that, but making the world the absolute best it can be.
      • Uniting people against the forces that drag them down, whether that be physical monsters, or unfair systems and cycles of hatred.
    • Try to identify common ground.
    • For differences, see what roots the differences come from. What are the cruxes?
    • If the conversation is fruitful, try meeting with him every week.
  • Chakra Science:
    • Check with Noburi -- is going to unconsciousness with techniques always dangerous? If not dangerous when monitored and with chakra water:
      • Test again, using techniques till unconsciousness.
      • Before every trial, top up with Noburi's chakra water. Drink a little above your maximum, then wait for the extra to seep out naturally.
      • If repeatedly going to unconsciousness is dangerous, do this over several days.
      • Otherwise, just trial once per day.
      • Count uses out loud to not get confused.
      • Write down everything. See if the average over time converges.
  • (offscreen) Misc:
    • Make sure new Gouketsu are sufficiently trained in OPSEC
    • Ask if Asuma can pay for a Dog to travel to Toad for future Summoning strategies.
    • Send Mareo a letter and some high-quality chocolate. Tell him we'd like to meet over tea, and swear not to harm him or take his Scroll (not that we could).
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Paperclipped said:
@RandomOTP, as head of the Snowflake-Hazou division, what would you think is a good approach here?
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Just spending time together, in general, with plausibly-romantic undertones. Perhaps spending time with her in the evening, for tea? Many mention something to the effect of Hazou liking her uniform during Yuno's Birthday Ceremony (perhaps frame it in terms of color-contrasting her hair-ribbon to keep it PG)? It'd be a nice throwback to Snowflake asking Hazou if he liked her ribbon.

No idea how to actually go about romancing Snowflake though.
 
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