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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
She's also basically sacrificing herself to give Kei more time to escape, too....
Weird situation

EDIT: She may have (correctly) assumed she would need to veer close to the truth or the Deceit TN would've been higher, so nothing else would've really worked. Still a bit fucked up but idk Hazou was basically screwed otherwise, at least Kei has a chance to escape unlike he would have
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Even if it was the "best" option Kei's feelings aren't rational.

Veedrac said:
I honestly can't tell what Oro's deal is. The canon Oro I got: he was selfish, amoral and evil, but also curious, cautious, and cunning. This Oro just seems like an S-rank nutcase.

Specifically, Oro had two options here:
  1. Don't believe Hazō could copy the seal. In that case, this is a dumbass lie that a curious, cautious, and cunning Oro would at most retaliate for, to ward off other people playing dumbass tricks, but not, like, risk killing a clan head over.
  2. Do believe Hazō could copy the seal. In that case, logically he should be much more willing to believe the story. A curious, cautious, and cunning Oro would be concerned about that, at least to the point where he wouldn't immediately sabotage the rescue effort.
While MfD!Oro is certainly not cunning, I have very little idea whether the points above map to him at all.
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Option 3: He believes that Hazou incorrectly believes Hazou could copy a seal supposedly set by the sage of 6th paths himself. Oro then goes on to test that theory and Hazou brings up bloodline stuff which makes this situation plausible and therefore intriguing.

At least that's my interpretation.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Something else we need to consider: Mari made the choice to throw Kei under the bus to save Hazou.

...I don't think we are ever going to be able to salvage Mari and Kei's relationship now.

Even if we resolve this situation with everyone alive and not in horrible physical pain or whatever Oro can think up Kei will eventually realize that Mari made another Hidden Swamp-esque choice and this time Kei was found wanting.

We could argue that Mari was just using Kei as a delaying tactic and that Mari trusted Hazou would be able to come up with a satisfactory plan once he wasn't in Suncle's immediate presence, but Kei will somewhat correctly point out that Mari could have volunteered Noburi instead.

But that's a problem for tomorrow-Hazou. Today-Hazou needs to keep his all of family's guts inside of their bodies.
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This is why I don't bother with the whole "other people" thing. It just tends to generate cycles of inconvenience.
 
Veedrac said:
This is an angle I hadn't considered. My initial reaction is, wouldn't Mari and Ami have seen through it?
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His intimidation might be high enough to beat their stats. Also, they may suspect, but do you really want to take that chance? Maybe he is just a crazy guy, and if not, he does do plenty of insane-person-things if only to maintain the facade anyways so you may as well treat him as such.

Dictator4Hire said:
Even if it was the "best" option Kei's feelings aren't rational.
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Oh no, Kei is totally entitled to how she feels. If I were in a similar situation I think I'd still be upset regardless. I'm just saying I don't think this was necessarily a coldhearted decision, I think Mari was really trying to save everyone and didn't know what else to do. Pretty horrible position to be put in, and as a 'penance' of sorts maybe that's why she's putting herself on the front line like this. She does tend to get self-sacrificial. Runs in the family I guess :p
 
Shrooms said:
His intimidation might be high enough to beat their stats. Also, they may suspect, but do you really want to take that chance? Maybe he is just a crazy guy, and if not, he does do plenty of insane-person-things if only to maintain the facade anyways so you may as well treat him as such.
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We've seen inner voices of the characters on this topic, I don't think it's just something they haven't mentioned out loud. Also Mari seemed to win this dice roll? AFAICT Occam's Razor supports the idea that Oro really is sincere. He wouldn't be the first MfD character with violence issues.

The fortunate side of this predicament is if Oro really is going after Kei, we will have full-fledged support from Ami, the Nara, and (by extension) the Hokage in defence. If he's nutty enough to do it, at least we have political firepower. Though maybe he just goes after Ami instead, who has less protection?
 
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Shrooms said:
Oh no, Kei is totally entitled to how she feels. If I were in a similar situation I think I'd still be upset regardless. I'm just saying I don't think this was necessarily a coldhearted decision, I think Mari was really trying to save everyone and didn't know what else to do. Pretty horrible position to be put in, and as a 'penance' of sorts maybe that's why she's putting herself on the front line like this. She does tend to get self-sacrificial. Runs in the family I guess :p
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If I were in Kei's position... I'd throw down an ultimatum: Hazou can choose to work with her or Mari, but never both from now on. Mari continually and reflexively acts as if she is Kei's jonin leader and that isn't true anymore: Kei is officially a Nara now. Here's how I would model her thought process:
  1. Mari uses me with no respect for my own agency without making a conscious decision to do so.
  2. Mari used me as a distraction when I was not even in the vicinity of the crisis
  3. Consequently, Mari views me not only as her subordinate, but as the most expendable one
  4. If this trend continues I will inevitably be sacrificed by her when Hazou is not around to intervene
  5. Therefore the only way to save myself is to remove Mari from a position of authority over me or to remove myself from the Goketsu hierarchy
  6. *Angst and self loathing kick in* Clearly it's better to remove myself since Mari would be homeless but I already have another home and this lessens conflicts of interest I have between the Nara and Goketsu if I publicly declare my intentions to be only Nara Kei from now on.
Naturally we'd reject such a proposal and try to create a satisfactory 3rd option but that's how I imagine Kei thinks: in absolutes, with a large dose of pessimism mixed with self loathing, and having no possibilities for creativity because of her bloodline.
 
Kei loves Hazou and doesn't want him to get tortured and killed. I think she'll be emotionally mature (fingers crossed) enough to realize that Mari was doing her best in a bad situation, and that Hazou would be worse than dead now if Mari hadn't said anything.
 
The thought occurs to me: What if Mari is attempting to get Orochimaru interested in not!Hazou using something she believes is true (to not trip Orochimaru's bullshit-o-meter), and then after leading him on a wild goose chase, let Orochimaru come to the (false) conclusion that Mari lied to him, in a way that keeps Orochimaru's interest away from all other parties.

I feel like this was said before, am I going crazy from exams?
 
Alright thread I see three options to choose from in this scenario:
  1. Tell Keiko to hide until we can figure something out/stall in some manner
  2. Run to Asuma and say Snuncle is getting handsy for clan secrets, please send in Tsunade or something
  3. Run away from Leaf altogether
Pros of each:
  1. We get to delay making a definitive decision to hopefully some form of benefit.
  2. Asuma or someone in the tower probably has a plan for Oro trying to pry open clan secrets or Snuncle would be kidnapping clan ninja all of the time.
  3. We put as much physical distance between ourselves and the Basement as possible.
Cons:
  1. If we don't figure out a solution in time Oro will be even more insistent and he's gonna be pissed at us for wasting his time.
  2. We have no idea what those contingencies might be and once we make that accusation we can never take it back.
  3. Leaving Leaf will mean we now have 2 major villages with personal vendettas against us. Asuma may even send Oro after us to hunt us down.
I'm currently in favor of option 2, but I would love to hear if there are other options and/or compelling arguments in favor of 1 or 3.
 
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We totally owe Tsunade, like, three miracles at this point, and this is coming from somebody responsible for both Noburi's marriage and the whole, "let's have Hazou's new father stop by to explain the situation to Akane's father" situation, although she might sell one for a description of the faces of the latter.

We should probably ask whats-her-face to arrange a surprise delivery of "thanks for keeping us not-dead" bouquet of flowers for the next time she has time to eat between being elbow-deep in keeping people alive. Seems like a sensible investment.
 
Lailoken said:
We totally owe Tsunade, like, three miracles at this point, and this is coming from somebody responsible for both Noburi's marriage and the whole, "let's have Hazou's new father stop by to explain the situation to Akane's father" situation, although she might sell one for a description of the faces of the latter.

We should probably ask whats-her-face to arrange a surprise delivery of "thanks for keeping us not-dead" bouquet of flowers for the next time she has time to eat between being elbow-deep in keeping people alive. Seems like a sensible investment.
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We could commit to adopting medics or genin who are willing to learn it. I bet our soon-to-be new SSSSS friends are all great medics already, in fact.
 
faflec said:
The thought occurs to me: What if Mari is attempting to get Orochimaru interested in not!Hazou using something she believes is true (to not trip Orochimaru's bullshit-o-meter), and then after leading him on a wild goose chase, let Orochimaru come to the (false) conclusion that Mari lied to him, in a way that keeps Orochimaru's interest away from all other parties.

I feel like this was said before, am I going crazy from exams?
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Orochimaru's interest won't be forgotten: that's the dilemma Mari wants us to solve since she bought us some time to figure it out. If we don't figure out a solution Oro will make Mari regret her decision and then return to our house to resume questioning Hazou before Oro was interrupted.

Also not going crazy from exams; this situation is just that complicated.

Lailoken said:
We should probably ask whats-her-face to arrange a surprise delivery of "thanks for keeping us not-dead" bouquet of flowers for the next time she has time to eat between being elbow-deep in keeping people alive. Seems like a sensible investment.
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Whats-her-face has a name: Ino Yamanaka. I am glad to see that you too respect her usefulness. Best blonde bride is paying dividends even before we marry her. :D
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Orochimaru's interest won't be forgotten: that's the dilemma Mari wants us to solve since she bought us some time to figure it out. If we don't figure out a solution Oro will make Mari regret her decision and then return to our house to resume questioning Hazou before Oro was interrupted.
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I mean, Orochimaru has known that Hazou's had access to armor-granting ninjutsu for a while, and was intrigued at gaining access to it, yet in this meeting he didn't really care about it at all.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Alright thread I see three options to choose from in this scenario:
  1. Tell Keiko to hide until we can figure something out/stall in some manner
  2. Run to Asuma and say Snuncle is getting handsy for clan secrets, please send in Tsunade or something
  3. Run away from Leaf altogether
Pros of each:
  1. We get to delay making a definitive decision to hopefully some form of benefit.
  2. Asuma or someone in the tower probably has a plan for Oro trying to pry open clan secrets or Snuncle would be kidnapping clan ninja all of the time.
  3. We put as much physical distance between ourselves and the Basement as possible.
Cons:
  1. If we don't figure out a solution in time Oro will be even more insistent and he's gonna be pissed at us for wasting his time.
  2. We have no idea what those contingencies might be and once we make that accusation we can never take it back.
  3. Leaving Leaf will mean we now have 2 major villages with personal vendettas against us. Asuma may even send Oro after us to hunt us down.
I'm currently in favor of option 2, but I would love to hear if there are other options and/or compelling arguments in favor of 1 or 3.
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Tbh I don't see a good reason to only go to Asuma. I may write a plan tomorrow where we send a runner to every single party that might help us. Don't care if it makes us look weak/costs us political clout or whatever. Get Naruto, get Asuma, get Tsunade, Shikamaru can mobilize the Nara, get the Kei and KEI, Ami, etc. No reason to pull our punches here, and unlike Hidan we can't impress Oro so easily. Better to remind him how inconvenient being an asshole can be.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Orochimaru's interest won't be forgotten: that's the dilemma Mari wants us to solve since she bought us some time to figure it out. If we don't figure out a solution Oro will make Mari regret her decision and then return to our house to resume questioning Hazou before Oro was interrupted.
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Yeah one of the things this update has done for me is nix the possibility that Oro just has a big research backlog and takes a while to get around to pursuing interesting things. He didn't pursue the Great Seal because he thought it wasn't worth his time. He didn't pursue the Iron Nerve because he didn't think it had anything interesting to study. Now that he's interested in us we cannot expect him to go back to his basement for another few months before remembering we exist again.
 
[X] Detonate a Jiraiya's Epic Seal of Awesomeness With A Really Awesome Name That You Have To Say All Of Every Time Or It Won't Work And Also I'll Punch You In The Face, This Means You, Hazō within Orochimaru's vicinity
 
Shrooms said:
We could commit to adopting medics or genin who are willing to learn it. I bet our soon-to-be new SSSSS friends are all great medics already, in fact.
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Gee, if only Ms. Eloquent Chakra manipulation "plagues don't care about imaginary lines on maps" equipped with Mist visas had some sort of child chakra manipulation bloodline specialty students with a family history of medicine she could mentor while simultaneously solving dozens of other problems...


Dictator4Hire said:
Orochimaru's interest won't be forgotten: that's the dilemma Mari wants us to solve since she bought us some time to figure it out. If we don't figure out a solution Oro will make Mari regret her decision and then return to our house to resume questioning Hazou before Oro was interrupted.

Also not going crazy from exams; this situation is just that complicated.



Whats-her-face has a name: Ino Yamanaka. I am glad to see that you too respect her usefulness. Best blonde bride is paying dividends even before we marry her. :D
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Blah blah blah romance blah blah blah. Let's get back to the punching and world conquest stuff.[/QUOTE]
 
Oro hasn't been mean, aside from the jonin aura intimidation. He even did some socializing.
We can just ask oro if he's gonna dissect or do harmful things to Kei. Or ask if he's gonna barter goods for Kei's consent to be studied.
And ask if mari will be rewarded for bringing up something interesting to him. can mention giving rewards incentivizes us telling him more ideas if we think of them in the future.

I think it makes most sense for the fate point spending to just be placed in the action plan. If it is in the winning plan it get spent, otherwise not.

Distraction topics:
did the snakes give him jiraiya's package we sent? or was it lost?
 
faflec said:
I mean, Orochimaru has known that Hazou's had access to armor-granting ninjutsu for a while, and was intrigued at gaining access to it, yet in this meeting he didn't really care about it at all.
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AFAIK, he also didn't intimidate Hazou into divulging those secrets because they didn't interest him as much:
Velorien said:
"Nephew," Orochimaru interrupted, "Kabuto explained your wild claims during his attempts to direct my attention to your project. If you stand by your insistence that you were able to accurately memorise a vast 3D seal, in its entirety, in a matter of seconds, and recall it still despite the Dragon's psychic assault that cast you back to the Human Path and nearly shattered your mind, that means you have a powerful combination of cognitive enhancement and 3D scanning ability. This is something I require."

Oh, no.

To anyone else, Hazō could just say "clan secret". However, this was Orochimaru, and those two things both sounded like something he might ignore the rules to get. Hazō knew the incredible value of perfect recall, and would go pretty damn far to get new kinds if the opportunity arose. Meanwhile, depending on how you interpreted "3D scanning", on the scale of the Great Seal it could imply something as grandiose as Byakugan-lite.
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I am a bit miffed that Hazou did not even try to utter the words "clan secrets" though. Maybe we haven't been accurately modelling how far those protections go if any S-ranker can ignore them? I am unsure and confused.

Shrooms said:
Tbh I don't see a good reason to only go to Asuma. I may write a plan tomorrow where we send a runner to every single party that might help us. Don't care if it makes us look weak/costs us political clout or whatever. Get Naruto, get Asuma, get Tsunade, Shikamaru can mobilize the Nara, get the Kei and KEI, Ami, etc. No reason to pull our punches here, and unlike Hidan we can't impress Oro so easily. Better to remind him how inconvenient being an asshole can be.
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I absolutely disagree. Asuma already has the means to contact all of those people and he does not want mass hysteria caused by the clans freaking out after hearing rumors that Oro is going to try to steal their bloodlines after the runners finish their tasks and start gossiping.

It's Asuma's responsibility as Hokage to mediate disputes between clans and we have the law on our side when it comes to protecting our clan secrets. Instead we can have our clanmates go in person to our closest allies to keep them safe and quietly inform them of what is going on at our place.

If it's mechanically permissible, I'd like to spend a Fate point for us as a clan to have had a contingency plan for "Orochimaru wants our bodies and isn't accepting 'No' as an answer". Then before we vote we can think of the best way response so that we can spend less time explaining to everyone what exactly is going on and focus only on execution.

Now, I would be in favor of flipping the table if Oro had actually attempted to grab Hazou and carry him away. However, since we were technically only having a discussion from one clan head to another we don't legally have a leg to stand on. Oro and Hazou are, AFAIK, technically equals under Leaf law (as laughable as that is in practice). 'The scary S-rank ninja made me piss myself' probably isn't a good enough legal justification for censuring and/or arresting said S-rank ninja.

Lailoken said:
Blah blah blah romance blah blah blah. Let's get back to the punching and world conquest stuff.
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If you continue supporting my preferences to their completion I will gladly agree to help you achieve yours. We can both get what we want in due time.
 
Shrooms said:
Tbh I don't see a good reason to only go to Asuma. I may write a plan tomorrow where we send a runner to every single party that might help us. Don't care if it makes us look weak/costs us political clout or whatever. Get Naruto, get Asuma, get Tsunade, Shikamaru can mobilize the Nara, get the Kei and KEI, Ami, etc. No reason to pull our punches here, and unlike Hidan we can't impress Oro so easily. Better to remind him how inconvenient being an asshole can be.
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Feel free to copy from my plan. It has a little bit of framework that you may find helpful. If we coordinate with Noburi (and send Mei, Haru, and Atomu out as well) we may have enough Dog/Toad Summons to contact everyone.
 
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