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Maybe I am missing something. What is a drawback that using Shadow Clones has, other than costing chakra and causing headaches? Like, imperfect recall of your clone's experiences isn't a drawback compared to no recall of your non-existent clone's experiences.

SC doesn't "Cause headaches", the perception of multiple timestreams is highly taxing on the mind and can cause "clone sickness", on top of that multiple uses of SC without restrain can drastically change someone personality(As Keiko-Clone kindly explained), the "resolve check" is an abstraction of the situation.
 
the "resolve check" is an abstraction of the situation.
Doesn't that still mean that all is fine if we have high enough resolve? And for that matter, that we shouldn't use it at all until we do?
Or did I miss something and the resolve check grows higher the longer a clone is around? That would make sense and remain a permanent drawback.
on top of that multiple uses of SC without restrain can drastically change someone personality
That's true and I missed it. Or not missed it per se, but thought that that only really matters if abused, like Keiko mused about.

That said, I'm not really worried about it as far as Hazō is concerned. Any such danger is completely overshadowed by the fact that a hivemind literally sets his goals, which he then rationalizes and forms his personality around.

I mean we literally voted for Prophet of the Out. And I can't imagine that casual and thoughtless use of Shadow Clones (within our ability to physically handle) would ever be able to affect Hazō even remotely as much as that would have.
 
LOL. The origin of that section of the plan is literally quoted on the top of the plan post.

@Immortal Lurker Care to explain your thinking on the purpose of the "thinking about air stuff" section you proposed and what you hoped it would accomplish within the quest in an ideal situation?
 
Current plan for your consideration
[X] Action plan: One week
  • Goals: spend one week advancing the following projects. check everything with clan
  • Summon Scrolls
    • Haru and Akane
      • Interview merchants and ninja that have been to where we suspect the scrolls are
      • Try to learn about local contacts, powerful groups and other agents that might be helpful
      • Find out about local customs
    • Hazō and Kagome
      • Review Jiraiya's notes. Specifically for any contacts or assets that might be helpful
      • Procure maps of the area
  • Skysliders
    • Not important to fly - just to glide. Birds of prey can glide for hours on updrafts without flapping, so let's not build a design that flaps.
      • In fact, if gliding is hard, then very few shapes should work. Kites are one, folded up paper is not.
      • Therefore, we should make a thing which doesn't move at all - so we can find a shape that glides and not risk changing it.
    • Small birds can't carry very heavy prey. We want the skyslider to carry heavy things (people), so the glider itself should be light.
      • Don't start with big designs of course - start with little ones and once there are some that work, scale up
      • Are there wood types that are sturdy and light? Make a frame with that, like "bones".
      • Feathers are good, but impractical for big gliders. What is lightweight that can cover a wing? Maybe stretch fabric over the wood frame?
    • Since we want to add weight eventually, keep the handle for throwing the hand-prototypes on the underside - where a weight might hang anyway.
  • Socials
    • Hang out with Noda and Yuno
    • Just genera show them a good time
  • Sealing
    • Get cleared by Kagome to start seal research
    • Start work on larger storage scrolls
      • Check J's decoded notes for any example
  • Misc
 
LOL. The origin of that section of the plan is literally quoted on the top of the plan post.

@Immortal Lurker Care to explain your thinking on the purpose of the "thinking about air stuff" section you proposed and what you hoped it would accomplish within the quest in an ideal situation?

It was intended to help Hazou learn what air and wind are, so that he could figure out how to manipulate them. Right now he just doesn't have the right frame of mind to consider things like lift and windspeed being related. He is talking about objects being accepted by the windspirits and not air being deflected downward and producing and upward force. He might not even be able to grasp that moving through the air at 30 mph gives the same results as being stationary in 30 mph wind.

The thing is, I think Hazou knows that his thinking is confused to some degree. I figure talking to a bunch of experts with different opinions on wind and air will help him achieve some clarity.

Honestly, the best way to do it might be to bring the numbers kid alongside him for all of those interviews.

Also, I want him to make a wind tunnel.
 
Eh, didn't happen. That's too much to retcon in.

Do you think we could have a small part in whatever update comes next have Kagome gush about the giant explosion from the MEW bomb? Please? 🐶
Ask @Velorien

Dangerous jobs can be rationalized by the same thoughts Hazō/Clone Hazō had regarding their own suicide, minus the musing wether it was forced rationalization. As for unpleasant jobs: That would merely require a belief that Clones are inferior beings to originals so ingrained that even your own clone believes it. Top all that off with the original's ability to dispel the clone at will and from any distance and it shouldn't be impossible.

Or to put it differently, most ninja already believe that their lives are worth less than mission failure. Even IRL humans can willingly accept death penalties in various societies. And that's without the (near) certain knowledge that (almost) all that makes you you will live on.

Lastly, I don't actually remember us seeing a Shadow Clone do stuff so truly unpleasant that ninja wouldn't do it on-screen. Most ninja would wade through smelly garbage, resist torture, kill innocent people, endure humiliation, or do boring and tedious tasks if they are required to by a valid superior.

All this is just an argument that not inherently obedient Shadow Clones should be possible without retconning previous work, not that there is any reason to rewrite the current chapter in order to make it so.
Eh. I find that I don't care that much. The thoughts are all unreliable narration so if we end up not going that route it doesn't matter.

Maybe I am missing something. What is a drawback that using Shadow Clones has, other than costing chakra and causing headaches? Like, imperfect recall of your clone's experiences isn't a drawback compared to no recall of your non-existent clone's experiences.
See the writeup: PLAYERS - Known Jutsu

And did they ever tell Hazō about their mission? If yes, can we still get a scene on it? What would a plan need in order to get that? Or is it just tedious and uninspiring writing that you (the QMs) avoided for good reason and would want to continue to do so? In which case, can we have cliff-notes?
It boils down to "We went there and dropped rocks and stuff blew up real good and then we went home."

Doesn't that still mean that all is fine if we have high enough resolve? And for that matter, that we shouldn't use it at all until we do?
Or did I miss something and the resolve check grows higher the longer a clone is around? That would make sense and remain a permanent drawback.
Respectively: Yes. No. Yes. See linked document for full details.

This is like asking "Wait, why are you saying that nuclear power is dangerous? Isn't it all fine if we have enough moderator rods (or equivalent depending on reactor design) and take care that the containment vessel never gets breached and that we properly dispose of the waste products?" Yes. It's powerful, useful, and dangerous, and the danger can be ameliorated through appropriate actions both mechanical and narrative. That's the point.
 
Interesting though that Shadow Clones and Multiple Shadow Clones are one jutsu in your world, as opposed to Earth Wall and MEW.
It is? I wasn't even aware that we *had* an Earth Wall jutsu, and I don't see one in the document. Then again, my brain is cheese.

Also, did you see Immortal Lurker's latest post? What's your stance on Hazō's discoveries/ability to discover stuff in light of that?
I don't really have one...can you rephrase the question to be more specific?
 
I don't really have one...can you rephrase the question to be more specific?
The plan section in question was intended to help Hazou learn what air and wind are, so that he could figure out how to manipulate them.
How much did he progress in that regard?
If he did not, what did the plan section lead to instead?

Additionally, it is my understanding that we have to lead Hazō to discover science stuff himself instead of just giving hin unfounded insights. And that you will inform us wether he has discovered the things we want him to discover and that, until you do, we cannot proceed with giving him action plans that depend on said discoveries. Am I wrong?
 
The plan section in question was intended to help Hazou learn what air and wind are, so that he could figure out how to manipulate them.
How much did he progress in that regard?
If he did not, what did the plan section lead to instead?

Additionally, it is my understanding that we have to lead Hazō to discover science stuff himself instead of just giving hin unfounded insights. And that you will inform us wether he has discovered the things we want him to discover and that, until you do, we cannot proceed with giving him action plans that depend on said discoveries. Am I wrong?
I think what ej is saying is that he didn't figure out anything. He just spent some IC time thinking to smooth the way to justify us giving him suspiciously good ideas - still founded on his current knowledge.
 
I think what ej is saying is that he didn't figure out anything. He just spent some IC time thinking to smooth the way to justify us giving him suspiciously good ideas - still founded on his current knowledge.
But that... doesn't give us anything to work with, other than, I don't know, repeating that section with a different phrasing.
 
But that... doesn't give us anything to work with, other than, I don't know, repeating that section with a different phrasing.
That's the point I think. The section didn't actually have any ideas or clear tests to do. I think it's very doable to lead Hazou to discovering Bernoulli's principle if we're more explicit about what he ought to think and test.
 
But that... doesn't give us anything to work with, other than, I don't know, repeating that section with a different phrasing.
I mean...what exactly do you want here, in a practical sense? Are you looking for Hazō to spontaneously invent the airfoil? Give his engineering team a detailed design for a hang glider? I'm not trying to be snarky, it's an honest question. Do you simply want to see him thinking really hard about the movement of air because science-adjacent internal monologue is appealing?

This goes back to the "ideas vs implementation" debate: There's no value in "And then I thought a lot" unless it informs actions.[1] You've had Hazō do the thinking, now you can vote for some actions that will be informed by those thoughts. Until you actually do something in a plan based on your thinking about wind, I just don't care enough to write it. Maybe @Velorien feels differently?


[1] I acknowledge the existence of edge cases. Thoughts that make you personally feel better still have some value even if you don't share those thoughts. The vast majority of thoughts, however, are useless until they affect the world outside of your head.
 
@eaglejarl I quote the person who actually wrote that plan section:
The thing is, I think Hazou knows that his thinking is confused to some degree. I figure talking to a bunch of experts with different opinions on wind and air will help him achieve some clarity.
To expand, we the players aren't even sure we are allowed to have Hazō do the experiments we want him to do. We have to know what Hazō knows in order to be sure we aren't cheating.

Also, I think you have actually misread the plan. It wasn't just about thinking hard.
then find experts on them.
It was about Hazō going to various experts on mechanical stuff that uses wind to function and ask them how the stuff works and why one way works better than the other.

That said, faflec massively cut down the word count of the original, thus removing a decent chunk of the experimental second part and maybe also reducing the clarity of the whole thing for someone who hasn't been following along the evolution of that subject in the discussion.
 
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To expand, we the players aren't even sure we are allowed to have Hazō do the experiments we want him to do. We have to know what Hazō knows in order to be sure we aren't cheating.
Hopefully this will break the logjam and let us move on: Yes, go do your experiments. You have my blessing. Build stuff! Tell people things! Behold, freedom of action is yours!

Honestly, I don't know what more you want. I'm not going to go through an aerodynamics textbook and put a checkmark next to the things Hazō knows. Hazō did some thinking, he talked to the 'experts' (there aren't really such people and the closest to such a thing are the guys working on your research team), and now you can do something with it.

Unless you have explicit implementation-level questions, I don't have anything further to say here.
 
"You have a solid record for creative innovation. Using Multiple Earth Wall as an offensive combat jutsu. Providing the original concept that allowed Kagome to produce the skywalker seal. Baiting out Zabuza in order to give Jiraiya an opportunity to act. The idea of creating a market for adoption slots.

Asuma doesn't just like us, he actually thinks we're smart and useful. This is an amount of good fortune I'm not sure what to do with. I can already feel the despair of losing his trust after we invariably do or say something comically stupid and dangerous in his presence.
 
Asuma doesn't just like us, he actually thinks we're smart and useful. This is an amount of good fortune I'm not sure what to do with. I can already feel the despair of losing his trust after we invariably do or say something comically stupid and dangerous in his presence.

Don't worry, he is a Sarutobi.

Their bloodline is the "common sense element", he knows that Hazou can be stupid, like that one time Hazou attacked him in public, as a missing-nin genin, in the middle of Leaf.

Also:

Shikaku.jpg
 
Yes, go do your experiments.
The plan actually did include one tiny little experiment.
Compare a windsock in the wind to a windsock being pushed down a long track. Discover relativity.
Though I understand that said experiment might not have been unclear or not phrased in a manner doable by Hazō as is.

The bottom line is that a) until recently Hazō and family still thought that what does and doesn't fly was solely up to aesthetics as judged by wind spirits and that b) in the world around him there actually are underlying principles on how human-made things that harness wind power work that, excluding rote ritualism based on long lost science, has people who designed the stuff or know the story of how it was designed and what inferior design preceded it.
So from your last comment I conclude that Hazō now has the same basic knowledge of wind that a sailing boat/windmill/paper lantern designer/builder/operator in Leaf would have. Which I assume to be the following:
"Wind Spirits fly this way and that and push things around in whatever direction they please using force that usually pushes in more or less one direction at a time over a certain duration. Light things put in the way of that force work consistently in a similar (but also different) fashion to things put into a river stream. If a wind spirit moves one thing it will also move a second, similar thing in the same way at the same time. Meaning two windmills or sails next to each other will behave the same way if they have the same form, regardless of color or talismans or prayers. Also, heat makes the wind spirits (or fire spirits?) pull light things into the air even without using wind jutsu like forces."

Is this correct? If yes, then we have a basis to use the scientific method on.

Edit: are handheld windmills made out of paper or wood a thing in Leaf or Mist or anywhere else that Hazō has noticed?
 
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Let Asuma know we will be contributing Jiraiya's notes for the contest. Coordinate the best way to do this
I don't think we wanted to contribute ALL of his notes, did we? Also, why do we have to let him know in advance instead of just contributing stuff sufficiently before the deadline for him to be able to look at and judge it? And what do you mean by "coordinate"? Isn't it just taking the decoded stuff and handing it to his staff?
Lastly, don't forget that we already promised a certain amount of it to a different clan.

To be honest, I like your plan well enough, except for the last bullet point. I'd vote for it without that.
 
Nerve Notice Bloodline

This Bloodline, when active, allows the wielder to see a body's nervous system in a similar manner to how a Hyuuga might see chakra pathways. Toggled on/off, this bloodline is highly noticeable when activated. The pupil of the eye widens, stretching and thinning the iris to the point of invisibility. This is done to allow sunlight spirits to enter the eye, interacting with the unique chakra within the wielder's eyes. Each time this bloodline is activated and then turned off, the pupil of the eye remains just a little bit wider than it had been previously.

Long term use will always result in blindness --the interaction of sunlight spirits is not a perfect, painless process. Humans are not spirits, and spirits are not humans, after all. The longer this bloodline is activated, the more "sunscarring" will remain after it is deactivated. Deactivation of this bloodline is painful, ranging from a pricked finger to a crushed bone. The longer this bloodline is active, the greater the pain --after long enough, a NNB ninja just learning their bloodline may be tempted to keep their bloodline activated until chakra exhaustion, ignoring the consequences.

Though the amount of "sunscarring" that remains after each activation is reliant upon many factors (exposure to sunlight, weather, time of day, duration of activation, etc), there is also a personal component. Two NNB ninja in equally perfect conditions (clear weather, noontime, in a meadow/field/desert/ocean) will still suffer a different amount of sunscarring. This is because each body handles spirit-damage differently. Thus, the "base" amount of sunscarring varies from person to person. Some NNB Wielders can be projected to last throughout their ninja career and some go blind before they make genin --though these are two extremes.

This bloodline can be activated during nighttime, though the amount of "sunscarring" that occurs will always be more than if it had been activated during daytime --though this can be mitigated, depending on the state of the moon. This means that it's not impossible for a NNB ninja to go blind if forced to activate their bloodline for a significant length of time at night during a new moon --or overcast skies. NNB wielders tend not to do well on night-missions for this reason. When activated at night, the iris of the NNB widens to encompass the sclera of the eye, welcoming the weaker, less numerous moonspirits.

This bloodline's activation is relatively costly and then the chakra drain is notably high --as far as the average jutsu's "upkeep drain" costs go.

This clan reveres the sun and considers the moon to be the more-alien, less compassionate (to humans) husband of the sun (needs more moonlight than sunlight, but moonlight's more harmful). Though they're not sure why, women with this bloodline tend to handle the sun's (or moon's) spirit damage better than their male counterparts. Thus, this clan is matriarchal in nature and their culture reflects this. Knowing full well that they're destined to go blind, this clan has a love of the visual arts and a deep appreciation for poetry. Several generations prior to the start of MfD, members of this clan noticed that blue-eyed NNB wielders generally lasted longer than NNB wielders with different eye color (blue is smallest wavelength, allowing eyes to capture/contain more errant sunlight). So they passed favorable policies towards blue-eyed marriages and children. Currently, most NNB have some shade of blue in their eyes. The worst curse/profanity you can offer an NNB ninja is to tell them some variation of "may the night steal your sight!" It would be like admitting to supporting dog-fighting rings to an Inuzuka, or offering to sign up their canine-companion up for one.

Mechanics: Shoutout to @Halberdier. Your mechanics help was inspired!

  • Every NNE ninja born with pool of "points" and, once they reach a basic competency with their bloodline, the average female NNE nin has 5000 points remaining.
    • Average Male NNE ninja have a pool of 4000 points. The following calculations are based on a pool of 5000.
  • All costs assume optimal conditions. Night is double cost. New Moon adds an additional double-cost. Overcast/Rain adds an additional half-cost, day or night.
    • Bonuses to MedKnow, Rolls against Deceit.
    • Also to intimidation if bloodline is activated. This bonus increases if bloodline is activated at night.
    • When training MedKnow w/ NNE Activated, MK is half-cost, but consumes 100 points per level attained.
  • While active, using Medic Jutsu on someone is half-cost, but consumes 5 points per jutsu, per patient. Basic upkeep cost is 1 point per 5 minutes.
  • Using this bloodline in conversation gives a bonus of (1/10th of % total points used, rounded up) to defeat deceit. Basic upkeep cost is 1 point per 5 minutes.
  • Activation lasting more than half an hour inflects mental stress, increasing with every ten minutes thereafter.
    • Once the pool of points reaches 25% of the original pool (1,250), the NNE loses 0.5 points per day, regardless of activation.
    • Once the pool of points reaches 20% of the original pool, this increases to 1 point per day, regardless of activation.
    • Once the pool of points reaches 10% of the original pool (500), this increases to 2 points per day, regardless of activation.
    • Once the pool of points decreases to 20% of original pool (1,000) a negative aspect is created to show decreasing sight.
    • After 20% hits, this negative aspect is reapplied for every additional 2% decrease of the original pool (100), stacking until the pool of points reaches 0, which is when the ninja becomes blind.
 
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