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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Rafin said:
I don't understand. Why was Keiko's Snowflake either more suicidal or more brave than Keiko? After all, if experience reintegrates then neither of the two die, or both of them do, depending on your viewpoint.

So either Snowflake wanted the whole of them to die and this was an attack on the original's psyche, or Snowflake wanted to reveal all of this and so somehow didn't completely copy over Keiko's shames and fears.

Maybe it's that the Frozen Skein suppresses initiative and thus either actually protected Keiko from taking that leap into oblivion, or prevented her from sharing concrete information that would change her life in any one extreme direction, or both.

Then there is the fact that Snowflake wasn't only freed of the Frozen Skein, but also of other worn on mental patterns, like the very voice and vocabulary of her own thoughts over who knows how many years. Which could mean that even for a person without Bloodlines Shadow Clone does not create anywhere near a perfect copy of the mind. Or that a mind is both fragile and extremely quick to self-repair and that ripping Frozen Skein from Keiko's psyche created a mind that immediately fell in on itself and yet could reform itself into a functional configuration within just a few seconds.

Speaking of Bloodlines, I am looking forward to Hazō's first clone, who will be terrible at, well, anything that involves muscles. Other than playing a specific song on the flute I guess.

Also, @ the QMs, have you thought about how to handle the hivemind connection when it comes to Shadow Clones? All kinds of interesting possible configurations come to mind. Now that I think of it, please don't spoil us those rules. It will be so fun and interesting dealing with whatever comes out on the other side of this amazing little jutsu.
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Snowflake is what happens when you have another Keiko who knows her time is short and genuinely wants what's best for herself. All she can do for Keiko is teach her, all she can do is show her her own flaws.

Keiko just had a face-to-face meeting with that Part Of Her she suppresses, denies, and fights. All her demons, and all the guardians that keep her from them.

The drawback of Shadow Clone is that you have to face yourself.

Holy shit, no wonder Leaf is "the sane village." How could they not be, given that they know this technique?
 
Velorien said:
Why would you say something like that when the actual update is still to come?
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Because I want you to be your full self. Any mercy should be proper mercy given only after you are aware of and can savor the full extent of your abilities to cause unending horror.

Also, Evil's members can't all be blatant frontliners. Some of us have to keep the bureaucracy running.
 
Evenstar said:
Snowflake is what happens when you have another Keiko who knows her time is short and genuinely wants what's best for herself. All she can do for Keiko is teach her, all she can do is show her her own flaws.

Keiko just had a face-to-face meeting with that Part Of Her she suppresses, denies, and fights. All her demons, and all the guardians that keep her from them.

The drawback of Shadow Clone is that you have to face yourself.

Holy shit, no wonder Leaf is "the sane village." How could they not be, given that they know this technique?
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Sooo....would Mari using this technique help her recovery?
 
Dear GMs: Please don't make this a Riot Quest for use of Shadow Clone. I would personally be tempted, but don't. All it would take is one [Χ] Armageddon Initiative. Please, do not.
 
MMKII said:
HAZOU2: Stop bullshitting, we've got work to do.
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Not enough slurring of words.

Evenstar said:
Snowflake is what happens when you have another Keiko who knows her time is short and genuinely wants what's best for herself. All she can do for Keiko is teach her, all she can do is show her her own flaws.
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But Snowflake's time is no shorter than original Keiko's. They are two divergent streams of the same consciousness, fated to merge again into one in short order.

Hmm. I guess if Keiko doesn't consciously see it that way though and considers a Shadow Clone's puffing to be the death of that entity at least to some extend then fatalism and the need to do as much as possible with her time left makes sense for Snowflake. That, or a Keiko with no Frozen Skein is sufficiently different that Snowflake doesn't consider any entity afflicted by that Bloodline to be a sufficiently complete continuation of herself to not be considered a form of death.
 
A Riot Quest is one where every voter gets to control a viewpoint character, but the QM regulates what the result of those actions are.

It's basically a role-play in Quest format.
 
faflec said:
Sooo....would Mari using this technique help her recovery?
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... like, yes and no.

Yes, it would force her through barriers, it would force her to really see herself. The issue is that it's psychotherapy through traumatic revelation: this is unquestionably Heroic Medicine, the kind you get when there's one doctor in the entire frontier town and the gunslinger's bleeding out if you don't do anything anyway.

Keiko succeeded. Keiko air-quotes "won", though this wasn't so much a conflict as some insanely hardcore introspection done out loud in front of a crowd so she can't take it back.

She was able to face herself, her whole self, and survive the experience. Not everybody can. Some coping mechanisms are there for good reasons.

That said, you need to keep in mind that Keiko knows herself better than anyone else ever could. She doesn't actually want to die, so Snowflake pushed her as far as she could without risking that.

The question of what Mari would do fundamentally comes down to "In her heart of hearts, does Mari actually want to die?"

And despite how broken and self-loathing she is, I think the answer to that question is no. She is tired, she is ever so fucking tired, it's deep in her bones how tired she is. I know it, I've seen it, it's there. But I don't think she's given up on the world. Gouketsu Mari is stronger than that. Gouketsu Mari is a spark that won't be put out, and she won't choose to destroy herself while there are others she loves and who love her.

... so my overall answer is "yes, but don't expect her to be functional for a few weeks afterwards."
 
Rafin said:
But Snowflake's time is no shorter than original Keiko's. They are two divergent streams of the same consciousness, fated to merge again into one in short order.
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... at which point both "Keiko" and "Snowflake" practically cease to exist as independent entities, but as "Snowflake" is a temporary chakra construct, the continuity of identity is a hell of a lot clearer for "Keiko".

"Snowflake", the shard, only exists for this moment. "Keiko", the greater self, will go on. Forks and merges.

Edit: Yes, I have spent a lot of time thinking about the banyan lifestyle, why do you ask?
 
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Rafin said:
Also, @ the QMs, have you thought about how to handle the hivemind connection when it comes to Shadow Clones? All kinds of interesting possible configurations come to mind. Now that I think of it, please to spoil us those rules. It will be so fun and interesting dealing with whatever comes out on the other side of this amazing little jutsu.
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Evenstar said:
Dear GMs: Please don't make this a Riot Quest for use of Shadow Clone. I would personally be tempted, but don't. All it would take is one [Χ] Armageddon Initiative. Please, do not.
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Pseudo Riot quest was what I was thinking, only more that each close channels one or two hivemind members at a time, instead of controlling them. So the first clone may have wonderful recall and plan execution, while the next clone insight for money making and destruction, and the third ambitious concerning specific opportunities and projects. With slight nods in verbal patterns to their progenitors.
 
I think the only reason that Keiko got a Persona 4 style chatdown with her alternate self is due to Frozen Skein stuff.

For folks who don't have continuous bloodline influence on their thoughts and are more or less mentally healthy for a ninja, I think its more like "There are now two of me, and there will be some combination of those two individuals later. Neither individual really "survives" per se, because merging."

For Hazou specifically, I think itd be good to just become okay with the thought of Counterfactual Shadow Clone Technique: the technique which spawns a copy and then turns you into the clone thats to be popped and merged.

Upon the first usage of SC, go through some rigamarole mental justification beforehand and then maybe put up some broadstrokes bulletpoints in case Hazouclone desires to play devil's advocate. There's no need to get overly fancy at that point though, because [X] Action Plan: First Shadow Clone, and any arguments thereof will get passed to the clone too, so its a moot point (either it will be convincing enough to result in a "Yep, now on to business." or it won't be and theres nothing to be done).
 
MMKII said:
For Hazou specifically, I think itd be good to just become okay with the thought of Counterfactual Shadow Clone Technique: the technique which spawns a copy and then turns you into the clone thats to be popped and merged.
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That feeling when you commit retroactive nonexistence to cast a clone technique, though.

Wouldn't that cause some seriously wacked out Out-nonsense? Most people aren't semi-consciously aware of their human-as-fourth-dimensional-tendril-self-iness and it's ability to twitch here and there, uncreating reality as we know it to fit into a new one. What happens when a mind capable of attuning on higher planes duplicates itself?

Does Hazo become Cthulu?
 
Evenstar said:
Dear GMs: Please don't make this a Riot Quest for use of Shadow Clone. I would personally be tempted, but don't. All it would take is one [Χ] Armageddon Initiative. Please, do not.
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They can't really make it a Riot Quest as long as Hazō can make far fewer clones than there are voters. At best they could make clones either prefer the second most voted plan at times or roll for a random voter whenever Hazō makes a clone, read his last few comments, and make the clone's goals be orie
Evenstar said:
She was able to face herself, her whole self, and survive the experience.
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Don't get ahead of yourself.
 
Powerofmind said:
That feeling when you commit retroactive nonexistence to cast a clone technique, though.

Wouldn't that cause some seriously wacked out Out-nonsense? Most people aren't semi-consciously aware of their human-as-fourth-dimensional-tendril-self-iness and it's ability to twitch here and there, uncreating reality as we know it to fit into a new one. What happens when a mind capable of attuning on higher planes duplicates itself?

Does Hazo become Cthulu?
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Ah, but you see, Hazou is not duplicating the entirety of himself; he's merely creating another living terminal in the Painted World. There is no contradiction with Hazou perceiving the truth of Reality and Hazou duplicating his consciousness, for what others perceive as a duplication of the entire self is merely the duplication of the hands by which the true Hazou enacts his change upon the Painted World.
 
MMKII said:
I think the only reason that Keiko got a Persona 4 style chatdown with her alternate self is due to Frozen Skein stuff.

For folks who don't have continuous bloodline influence on their thoughts and are more or less mentally healthy for a ninja, I think its more like "There are now two of me, and there will be some combination of those two individuals later. Neither individual really "survives" per se, because merging."

For Hazou specifically, I think itd be good to just become okay with the thought of Counterfactual Shadow Clone Technique: the technique which spawns a copy and then turns you into the clone thats to be popped and merged.

Upon the first usage of SC, go through some rigamarole mental justification beforehand and then maybe put up some broadstrokes bulletpoints in case Hazouclone desires to play devil's advocate. There's no need to get overly fancy at that point though, because [X] Action Plan: First Shadow Clone, and any arguments thereof will get passed to the clone too, so its a moot point (either it will be convincing enough to result in a "Yep, now on to business." or it won't be and theres nothing to be done).
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I mean, let's look at all the revelations we are currently not inflicting on Hazou.
- He doesn't really know his mother and he probably never will.
- He's the kind of person who's fascinated by Orochimaru's horrors even as he's disgusted by them.
- He's pretty OK with people dying so long as they aren't people he knows.
- He's actually still the kind of person who thinks of others as "skinwastes".
- He weaponizes things instinctively.
- He's socially terrible in a lot of ways and doesn't know how to relate to others.
- He'll never be able to have expressions just flow from his heart rather than be things he chooses to wear, like clothes.
- He doesn't know what he's doing and he's not really in control.
- He comes up with brilliant ideas but can never depend on them, they just kind of happen to him.
- There is a part of him that considers no price too high for the world he desires.
- He's simultaneously too old and too young, a creature that doesn't fit in society and can't really relate to anyone.
- He talks a big game, but still has issues actually caring about people. He seems to treat everyone as cute pets, not people worth listening to.
- Like Keiko, he uses intellectualism as a defense mechanism.
- He wants to speak his heart but he's become a liar to do it.
- He's scared shitless of a lot of the things he's done to himself.
- He's seen the Out and it feels in some ways more natural to him than life in this world.
Etc, etc. I could go on.
 
Rafin said:
They can't really make it a Riot Quest as long as Hazō can make far fewer clones than there are voters. At best they could make clones either prefer the second most voted plan at times or roll for a random voter whenever Hazō makes a clone, read his last few comments, and make the clone's goals be orie

Don't get ahead of yourself.
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She'd be dead already, or Ami would have intervened. Trust me on this.
 
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