Voting is open for the next 1 day, 7 hours
I'd like to ask Kagome about the Five before we go to talk to Ami, and if we plan to do the latter next Thursday, we should do the former next update. Since EagleJarl clarified that he doesn't have anything specific for the free-reign vote, what do you all think about voting-in a normal plan after all? I'll write-up the Kagome section if there's interest.
 
Last edited:
I'd like to ask Kagome about the Five before we go to talk to Ami, and if we plan to do the latter next Thursday, we should do the former next update. Since EagleJarl clarified that he doesn't have anything specific for the free-reign vote, what do you all think about voting-in a normal plan after all? I'll write-up the Kagome section if there's interest.

The "possible" OUT possessed Hazou is going to ask Kagome for information?

If Kagome doesn't blow Hazou up just for asking I don't buy that Kagome is paranoid enough.
 
The "possible" OUT possessed Hazou is going to ask Kagome for information?

If Kagome doesn't blow Hazou up just for asking I don't buy that Kagome is paranoid enough.
I don't see why that would happen. If Hazou is possessed by an Out entity, there's surely no reason for the entity to ask Kagome about its own nature. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Hazou to seek more information about his ailment.
 
I don't see why that would happen. If Hazou is possessed by an Out entity, there's surely no reason for the entity to ask Kagome about its own nature. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Hazou to seek more information about his ailment.
Unless !Hazou's weeding for information regarding Kagome's knowledge so he can better act in a way that doesn't give himself away and convince Kagome that he's not infected and AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
If Hazou is possessed by an Out entity, there's surely no reason for the entity to ask Kagome about its own nature.
Despite my agreement on the action, I think figuring out what your body's associates might know about you--the possessing entity-- would be fairly high on the priority list. I think after thats been established things devolve into a game of "What level are we playing at?" , right?
 
I don't see why that would happen. If Hazou is possessed by an Out entity, there's surely no reason for the entity to ask Kagome about its own nature. On the other hand, it makes perfect sense for Hazou to seek more information about his ailment.
Unless !Hazou's weeding for information regarding Kagome's knowledge so he can better act in a way that doesn't give himself away and convince Kagome that he's not infected and AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Basically this.

Or Kagome might think Hazou could be a spy for a evil OUT faction, trying to collect information against another OUT faction.

And you think you are paranoid enough, pah.
 
I think @Cariyaga suggests the following: each month, if a certain funding goal is met (e. g., $1000 of donations), you or EagleJarl write a bonus MfD chapter on a topic of your choosing. This directly incentivizes donations, gives you an excuse to write chapters on your preferred topics (Ami or Keiko; punching) while simultaneously presumably providing you with the spoons to do so, and gives us more chapters.
That makes sense. I'll have to think about it.

[X] Let EJ write what he wants. We trust him.

@Velorien @OliWhail if you had to pick the most defining moment of mfd for you, what would it be? I want to commission some artwork for mfd to say thanks.

EJ put dibs on Hazou convincing Kagome to teach him sealing :p
What do you mean by "defining moment"?

I am confident that, if we focused on the task for up to ten updates and two IC months, we'd be able to destroy any given in-universe entity we're currently aware of (and only that entity), including all S- and A-ranked ninja and major villages.
[hammers kaiju button]
 
[hammers kaiju button]
Careful. If you press it too many times and saturate the gameboard in Kaiju, some of them will end up killing each other, and then we'll reassemble their corpses into weapons and use them to kill the rest. Have you never seen Neon Genesis Evangelion?
Unless !Hazou's weeding for information regarding Kagome's knowledge so he can better act in a way that doesn't give himself away and convince Kagome that he's not infected and AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Despite my agreement on the action, I think figuring out what your body's associates might know about you--the possessing entity-- would be fairly high on the priority list. I think after thats been established things devolve into a game of "What level are we playing at?" , right?
Ehh, I don't think this chain of reasoning holds water.

It is trivial to check, at any moment, whether Hazou still retains his memories and whether he is able to act in a way consistent with his previous personality — just ask him a question about the past or have Mari grill him, respectively. Therefore, it should be assumed that the only long-term dangerous Out entities are those capable of manifesting A+-class supernatural abilities, and those capable of passing the two aforementioned tests.

But if the entity is able to perfectly replicate Hazou's behaviour, it's necessarily smart, and almost certainly able to keep up the deception long-term. Why would it go out of its way to gather information like this, then, if it's likely to raise suspicions? Why not just keep acting for months, until it's un-quarantined?

Well, sure, there could be reasons not to. But these reasons would be entirely arbitrary, and if Kagome is going to kill us for acting in a way consistent with having been possessed by an arbitrary Out entity, literally all behaviours are suspicious, and he's probably already raising his explosive rings.
 
Last edited:
But if the entity is able to perfectly replicate Hazou's behaviour, it's necessarily smart, and almost certainly able to keep up the deception long-term. Why would it go out of its way to gather information like this, then, if it's likely to raise suspicions? Why not just keep acting for months, until it's un-quarantined?

Thats exactly what you would do if you were an Out entity though, so why wouldn't you ask about Out entities?

Wait, but thats what you would obviously do if you were an Out entity pretending not to be an Out entity by asking about Out entities, you foolish abomination you! You must then act as normal.

But wait, what if this would reveal you as an Out entity that....

Etc.

I don't think it matters really, but I do think the problem exists on some level. It should be relatively trivial to bypass since everyone involved should have already internalized that theres no discernible difference between "Hazou" and "Out entity seamlessly pretending to be Hazou", and so theres literally no way to safeguard against that class of manipulations besides "Pretend this isn't happening."
 
So i just had a thought.

We've seen that every Naruto clone is slightly different. And we all influence Hazou collectively.
... Does that mean that each clone could have a specific thread member influence each clone? @Lailoken, that could be your chance to be heard! Which is as terrifying as it is entertaining to think about.



Also, Kagome and Keiko are right. Hazou IS being influenced by out entities. Its just we like and care about Kagome just the way he is though.
 
This isn't going to be a quite finished plan because I intend to work on it more as I go through stuff and do public/group/org comm thing, but I wanted to get the basic draft up first.

[X] Action Plan: Wait, What's Losing Like Kurohige?
Wordcount: 296

Run ideas by Mari.
  1. Command Proposals
    1. Proposal: Reject Rock
      1. Actions:
        1. Strengthen national identity.
        2. Reestablish Leaf institutions, like Hokage.
      2. Pros:
        1. Maintains Leaf dignity and autonomy.
      3. Cons:
        1. Educational, economic, and educational reforms are necessary.
        2. Promoting nativist narrative weakens Leaf-Mist alliance.
        3. Risky.
    2. Proposal: Narrative Hijack
      1. Actions:
        1. Create international task force to hunt down perpetrators.
        2. Thank Rock for volunteering to contribute.
      2. Pros:
        1. Maintains Leaf dignity and autonomy.
        2. Advantageously uses internationalist rhetoric
        3. Leaf gains new, prominent position.
      3. Cons:
        1. Extremely risky. Risks include:
          1. Rejection, which leaves Leaf worst off.
          2. Losing control of the group.
    3. Proposal: Lose Like Kurohige
      1. Actions:
        1. Conduct negotiated merger, preserving right to economic output and self-governance.
        2. Use the merger to remove Rock's trade barriers.
        3. Enact major economic and educational reforms.
        4. Leverage superior economic and military might into a takeover.
      2. Pros:
        1. Leaves Leaf in control of the superstate with a superior economy and military.
      3. Cons
        1. Sacrifices dignity and autonomy.
        2. May sever diplomatic ties as part of merger.
        3. Long-term plan with many points of failure.
  2. Estate
    1. Raise morale.
      1. Give motivational speeches.
        1. Emphasize the Will of Fire, our similarities, and how we need their valuable contributions.
        2. Mental strength is an important contribution.
        3. Commend Atomu, Reo, and Yua.
      2. Visit all of the 545 people living here to reinforce the message.
    2. Expand and improve living space.
      1. Attract civilians and KEI ninja.
    3. Organize school for children/Academy ninja.
      1. Request teaching or subject matter experience.
        1. Tap Kagome.
      2. Collectively teach Academy students.
      3. Establish "office hours" where Hazou is available to instruct ninja.
        1. Encourage Mari and Kagome to follow suit.
    4. Create clinical wing.
      1. Secure a separate, clean space.
      2. Hire midwives/nurses as staff.
      3. Ask Noburi to help.
    5. Organize genin into 6-nin "tokubetsu chunin" squads.
      1. Establish a rotation: 2 squads working, training, and resting.
    6. Ask Kagome about his progress towards decoding Jiraiya's notes.
      1. Help decode them during free time.
 
Last edited:
[X] Training Akane: Hot Chakra
[X] Training Akane: Hot Chakra Hammer

Because I want EM nukes.

Honestly, we've ignored so many priceless opportunities to ruthlessly manipulate her into liking us impress her that I'm irrationally, but completely, dejected about pursuing this objective.

I think @Cariyaga suggests the following: each month, if a certain funding goal is met (e. g., $1000 of donations), you or EagleJarl write a bonus MfD chapter on a topic of your choosing. This directly incentivizes donations, gives you an excuse to write chapters on your preferred topics (Ami or Keiko; punching) while simultaneously presumably providing you with the spoons to do so, and gives us more chapters.

Or at least that's how I think this idea is supposed to work.
Yeah, that's about right. Of course, it may not work for reasons of spoons being fickle bastards, but I wouldn't be bothered by that (then again my funding level is low until finances stabilize so take that with a grain of salt).

@huhYeahGoodPoint We're not allowed to make storage seals or macerators right now, I'm afraid.
 
I plan to make a post about how long it took for various characters to gain each other's trust. Such as between team uplift, uplift and Jiraiya, uplift and naruto, ten ten and shika, etc. mentioning it now in case so anyone who wants to can do it first
 
Last edited:
    1. Do a trial run of the storage seal subscription service. Ask the Academy ninja or genin to help out.

Storage seal bank are more scalable and can lead to different businesses such as asynchronous trading, as well leverage to make our ways into other markets, like rice futures.

Storage seal subscription service are great until CUSS(Civilian usable storage seal) are invented. We'll want a transition for the small time jobs we may be losing for academy ninja or genin. For now, it's a good idea if limited in potential. Also make sure we pay them!
 
Alright, this one is on public/mass and small group communication specifically. I'm going to include a small blurb on organizational comm, but I haven't really studied that one and I'm going to need to hit the textbooks to be able to properly answer that one.

Public or Mass Communication is generally about communication between one speaker to an audience. A panel technically is part of Public or Mass Comm too, but one speaker is far more common.

Theorists treat Mass Communication as Face to Face communication with a distance, both literal and metaphorical wrt emotional and perceptual distance.

Style and substance are both important for effective mass communication, and there is no absolutely correct method - it always varies bast on the context.

That said, a few general guidelines about an effective delivery style:
Effective delivery style...
Appears "natural" and comfortable.
Varies, both in voice and physical motion. The delivery isn't monotonous.
Reinforces the message.
Demonstrates immediacy with audience.

For this, preparation, rehearsal, and effective notes are the best and only help you're going to get.

Onto effective substance.

Effective Substance is about having the right message delivered by the right source to the right audience.
  • Message strategies
    • Use of Evidence (Supporting arguments) includes
      • Factual statements, statistics, or studies
      • examples or personal testimonials
      • sayings or quotations (especially useful for developing immediacy or improving recall)
      • Analogies or metaphors to illustrate the point in a new way.
    • One-sided versus Two-sided Arguments is about whether you present only one side of an argument or present two sides of an argument and slant towards one. There are use cases for both.
      • One-sided arguments are better if the audience already agrees or leans towards your side of the argument, there is't much controversy about the subject, and that the audience has a low familiarity with the issue.
      • Two-sided arguments are better if the audience disagrees or leans against you, the subject is controversial, and the audience has or perceives that they have a high familiarity with an issue.
    • Appeals to Positive Emotion
      • Messages meant to arouse good feelings, like amusement (from humor), sentimentality, hope, pride, etc.
      • Appeals to positive emotion are only effective if they can accomplish both:
        • Creating a positive emotion in the target audience
        • Causing the target audience to pair the positive emotion with the argument or product.
    • Appeals to Negative Emotion
      • Messages meant to arouse negative feelings, like guilt, shame, sadness, anger, etc.
      • Appeals to Negative Emotion are only effective if they can get the target audience to feel the negative emotion and then make the target audience feel that the persuader's method of relief is the correct method.
      • Fear is actually such a big part of Negative Emotional appeals it has volumes more literature on it than any other negative appeal, so this is covered here:
        • The Fear Appeal works by first making the target audience feel that a basic human need (e.g. safety, personal relationships, etc.) is being threatened.
        • The Fear Appeal is then most effective if they can convince their target audience of several key points:
          • Severity - the threat is serious and will take away some basic human need
          • Susceptibility - the threat is likely to happen to the target audience.
          • Response Efficacy - the threat can be resolved by the actions the persuader lays out.
          • Self-efficacy - the target audience can take the actions necessary to resolve the threat.
    • Use of storytelling/narrative
      • Telling or showing a story with the persuasive goal as the lesson or product - think the DirecTV ads whose moral was "switch to DirecTV"
    • Appeals to higher-order human needs
      • Persuader suggests that the target audience can meet a need like esteem, belonging, or more rarely, self-actualization, with their product.
        • e.g snob appeal to esteem, bandwagon appeal to belonging.
    • Appeal to cultural value
      • Can be stuff like individualism or freedom, and can also be appeals to stuff like holiday iconography.
  • Source Qualities
    • Credibility
      • How believable is the source? Two (arguably three) dimensions of trustworthiness.
      • Expertise
        • Perceived training, knowledge, and experience of source on topic.
      • Trustworthiness
        • Perceived honest, integrity of source, including biases.
    • Similarity with target audience
      • Similarity being shared characteristics between source and receiver, along axes like attitudes, values, demographic details, appearance, etc.
        • blue versus white collar stuff.
    • Likeability
      • Incldes being friendly, interesting, positive attitude, self assurance, empathy, etc. Likeability.
      • Some argue that Likeability just acts as a roundabout way to generate trustworthiness.
    • Physical Attractiveness
      • Sad but true
    • Fame is the one that's a big mess in the research, because research effects suggests that there isn't an association. That said, the research does point towards celebrities having a positive effect if they are perceived to have expertise on the subject - a roundabout way of going through expertise.
  • I'm skipping audience because that involves demographic and psychographic shit that we won't have until later, if ever, in the quest, forcing us to eyeball this stuff anyway.

Small Group communication focuses specifically on the communication within small groups working towards a common goal. Group sizes that Small Group focuses on is usually in the 3-20 person range, where everybody communicates and influences each other within the group. Past the size of twenty (and actually, within the twenty size) people tend to form smaller subgroups within the subrange anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

Small Group scholars generally agree there are three outcomes that results from getting people to work together in a group:
Social loafing - less work is produced than individual outcomes.
neutral result - I didn't label what this was in the notes, but ths is the outcome where you get the same output from the group as if the individuals were working seperately. No benefit, no significant loss.
Social facilitation - more work is produced as a group than the individuals could alone, due to stuff like complementary talents or spurring each other on, that sort of deal.

Factors that influence which result occurs:
  • Group Size
    • As groups get larger beyond 10 and heading towards 30, certain effects begin popping up.
      • A small proportion of people begin to dominate the talking, while others contribute less for various reasons.
        • It also becoes harder to track relationships within the group.
      • More time is needed to reach a decision - the more shareholders, the more peole have to be satisfied in order to reach a decision.
      • Subgroups within the group tend to form to a more comfortable sze.
      • Productivity per head also tends to decline as the groups get bigger, though note that this is a tendency and not an absolute law.
  • Group Cohesiveness
    • How close/connected/mutually liked are the group members? How much do they like each other?
    • As cohesiveness increases, communication and participation increases.
      • Satisfaction also probably increases, but that's not a big deal.
    • Productivity is actually not that associated with group cohesiveness - it's very much possible to have social facilitation with low cohesiveness and social loafing with high cohesiveness.
  • Group Leadership
    • Falls under situation leadership theory, but everything varies based on the situational context.
    • Any given leader's effectiveness varies depends on:
      • Ability to know group's needs and talents
      • Ability to adapt leadership style based on group needs.
I'm cutting the technology/internet stuff because most of it is both inapplicable and obviously wrong to our lived experiences.

Organizational communication is the study of communication inside larger organizations, like businesses, nonprofits, and the government. Org comm thus involves people organized into a formalized hierarchy pursuing multiple goals within complex communication networks. Those complex communication networks happen because big enough organizations end up finding that restricting who gets to talk to who is super important so that people can actually do work instead of spending literally all their time looking for and answering questions from other people. Organizational communication also studies the aspects of organizational culture, whether it's as broad as the industry culture, or as specific to the organization.
 
Alright, this one is on public/mass and small group communication specifically. I'm going to include a small blurb on organizational comm, but I haven't really studied that one and I'm going to need to hit the textbooks to be able to properly answer that one.

Public or Mass Communication is generally about communication between one speaker to an audience. A panel technically is part of Public or Mass Comm too, but one speaker is far more common.

Theorists treat Mass Communication as Face to Face communication with a distance, both literal and metaphorical wrt emotional and perceptual distance.

Style and substance are both important for effective mass communication, and there is no absolutely correct method - it always varies bast on the context.

That said, a few general guidelines about an effective delivery style:
Effective delivery style...
Appears "natural" and comfortable.
Varies, both in voice and physical motion. The delivery isn't monotonous.
Reinforces the message.
Demonstrates immediacy with audience.

For this, preparation, rehearsal, and effective notes are the best and only help you're going to get.

Onto effective substance.

Effective Substance is about having the right message delivered by the right source to the right audience.
  • Message strategies
    • Use of Evidence (Supporting arguments) includes
      • Factual statements, statistics, or studies
      • examples or personal testimonials
      • sayings or quotations (especially useful for developing immediacy or improving recall)
      • Analogies or metaphors to illustrate the point in a new way.
    • One-sided versus Two-sided Arguments is about whether you present only one side of an argument or present two sides of an argument and slant towards one. There are use cases for both.
      • One-sided arguments are better if the audience already agrees or leans towards your side of the argument, there is't much controversy about the subject, and that the audience has a low familiarity with the issue.
      • Two-sided arguments are better if the audience disagrees or leans against you, the subject is controversial, and the audience has or perceives that they have a high familiarity with an issue.
    • Appeals to Positive Emotion
      • Messages meant to arouse good feelings, like amusement (from humor), sentimentality, hope, pride, etc.
      • Appeals to positive emotion are only effective if they can accomplish both:
        • Creating a positive emotion in the target audience
        • Causing the target audience to pair the positive emotion with the argument or product.
    • Appeals to Negative Emotion
      • Messages meant to arouse negative feelings, like guilt, shame, sadness, anger, etc.
      • Appeals to Negative Emotion are only effective if they can get the target audience to feel the negative emotion and then make the target audience feel that the persuader's method of relief is the correct method.
      • Fear is actually such a big part of Negative Emotional appeals it has volumes more literature on it than any other negative appeal, so this is covered here:
        • The Fear Appeal works by first making the target audience feel that a basic human need (e.g. safety, personal relationships, etc.) is being threatened.
        • The Fear Appeal is then most effective if they can convince their target audience of several key points:
          • Severity - the threat is serious and will take away some basic human need
          • Susceptibility - the threat is likely to happen to the target audience.
          • Response Efficacy - the threat can be resolved by the actions the persuader lays out.
          • Self-efficacy - the target audience can take the actions necessary to resolve the threat.
    • Use of storytelling/narrative
      • Telling or showing a story with the persuasive goal as the lesson or product - think the DirecTV ads whose moral was "switch to DirecTV"
    • Appeals to higher-order human needs
      • Persuader suggests that the target audience can meet a need like esteem, belonging, or more rarely, self-actualization, with their product.
        • e.g snob appeal to esteem, bandwagon appeal to belonging.
    • Appeal to cultural value
      • Can be stuff like individualism or freedom, and can also be appeals to stuff like holiday iconography.
  • Source Qualities
    • Credibility
      • How believable is the source? Two (arguably three) dimensions of trustworthiness.
      • Expertise
        • Perceived training, knowledge, and experience of source on topic.
      • Trustworthiness
        • Perceived honest, integrity of source, including biases.
    • Similarity with target audience
      • Similarity being shared characteristics between source and receiver, along axes like attitudes, values, demographic details, appearance, etc.
        • blue versus white collar stuff.
    • Likeability
      • Incldes being friendly, interesting, positive attitude, self assurance, empathy, etc. Likeability.
      • Some argue that Likeability just acts as a roundabout way to generate trustworthiness.
    • Physical Attractiveness
      • Sad but true
    • Fame is the one that's a big mess in the research, because research effects suggests that there isn't an association. That said, the research does point towards celebrities having a positive effect if they are perceived to have expertise on the subject - a roundabout way of going through expertise.
  • I'm skipping audience because that involves demographic and psychographic shit that we won't have until later, if ever, in the quest, forcing us to eyeball this stuff anyway.

Small Group communication focuses specifically on the communication within small groups working towards a common goal. Group sizes that Small Group focuses on is usually in the 3-20 person range, where everybody communicates and influences each other within the group. Past the size of twenty (and actually, within the twenty size) people tend to form smaller subgroups within the subrange anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.

Small Group scholars generally agree there are three outcomes that results from getting people to work together in a group:
Social loafing - less work is produced than individual outcomes.
neutral result - I didn't label what this was in the notes, but ths is the outcome where you get the same output from the group as if the individuals were working seperately. No benefit, no significant loss.
Social facilitation - more work is produced as a group than the individuals could alone, due to stuff like complementary talents or spurring each other on, that sort of deal.

Factors that influence which result occurs:
  • Group Size
    • As groups get larger beyond 10 and heading towards 30, certain effects begin popping up.
      • A small proportion of people begin to dominate the talking, while others contribute less for various reasons.
        • It also becoes harder to track relationships within the group.
      • More time is needed to reach a decision - the more shareholders, the more peole have to be satisfied in order to reach a decision.
      • Subgroups within the group tend to form to a more comfortable sze.
      • Productivity per head also tends to decline as the groups get bigger, though note that this is a tendency and not an absolute law.
  • Group Cohesiveness
    • How close/connected/mutually liked are the group members? How much do they like each other?
    • As cohesiveness increases, communication and participation increases.
      • Satisfaction also probably increases, but that's not a big deal.
    • Productivity is actually not that associated with group cohesiveness - it's very much possible to have social facilitation with low cohesiveness and social loafing with high cohesiveness.
  • Group Leadership
    • Falls under situation leadership theory, but everything varies based on the situational context.
    • Any given leader's effectiveness varies depends on:
      • Ability to know group's needs and talents
      • Ability to adapt leadership style based on group needs.
I'm cutting the technology/internet stuff because most of it is both inapplicable and obviously wrong to our lived experiences.

Organizational communication is the study of communication inside larger organizations, like businesses, nonprofits, and the government. Org comm thus involves people organized into a formalized hierarchy pursuing multiple goals within complex communication networks. Those complex communication networks happen because big enough organizations end up finding that restricting who gets to talk to who is super important so that people can actually do work instead of spending literally all their time looking for and answering questions from other people. Organizational communication also studies the aspects of organizational culture, whether it's as broad as the industry culture, or as specific to the organization.
Just to be clear, is this related to MfD in some way, or did you simply need a place to store your notes?
 
Just to be clear, is this related to MfD in some way, or did you simply need a place to store your notes?
ah shit i was focused so much on typing it out that I forgot to include how this is useful for us in MfD (plus I wanted to put this stuff up as a general resource).

Anyway, the big problem as ex-missing-nin is that we're kind of fucked on Source Trustworthiness, and Source Expertise is something we are also mostly fucked on wrt sweeping societal change. However, by using all the message techniques at various points hopefully we can mitigate that stuff - bonus points if we cast ourselves as Lord Goketsu, which (slightly) changes our source trustworthiness.

(also we could probably get away with saying whatever the fuck we wanted with respect to fetishes and have it be accepted as the gospel truth).

(also also I intend on drafting a speech later and citing the post I just threw up)

Small group stuff matters for how we organize the Goketsu groups (and the eventual Necromancy project) - 6-man formations, incidentally, are a pretty good group size, according to the stuff I can remember off the top of my head.
 
Akatsuki didn't do this, and aside from costing Hazou face when that comes out later calling to unilaterally break the truce with the most dangerous force on the planet could have Consequences.
 
Voting is open for the next 1 day, 7 hours
Back
Top