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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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eaglejarl said:
An encampment about 120m by 50m (about 1.5 acres, slightly larger than a football field) that's been cleared of threats. XP Offer: +1 XP if someone figures out how much of that Hazō has been able to put walls around using MEW. He's had 4 days to work on it and each day he's allowed to use half the chakra from himself and Akane plus an additional 400/day from other people. (There's a need to leave everyone sufficiently chakra-endowed to fight if necessary, so there's a policy of never draining anyone too much and not draining the genin at all.)
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Total chakra to work with:
  • 400/day over four days (1600 CP)
  • Half of Hazou's reserves, times four days (190 / 2 * 4 = 380 CP)
  • Half of Akane's reserves, times four days (200 / 2 * 4 = 400 CP)
  • Total of 2380 CP
Total time to work with:
  • Absolute maximum: 4 days times 16 hours per day = 64 hours.
  • Reasonable maximum: 4 days times 8 hours per day = 32 hours.
  • Reasonable minimum: 4 days times 4 hours per day = 16 hours.
At Effect 1 (Hazou's maximum), MEW gives 1 cubic meter of stone per cast. The cost per cast depends on how much time he spends on the cast, as follows:
  • Instant: 33 CP --> 72 m^3 in basically no time.
  • Seconds: 31 CP --> 76 m^3 in a few minutes.
  • Half minute: 29 CP --> 82 m^3 in 41 minutes.
  • Minute: 25 CP --> 95 m^3 in 95 minutes.
  • Several minutes: 19 CP --> 125 m^3 in about 6 hours
  • 10 minutes: 11 CP --> 216 m^3 36 hours.
  • Half hour: 1 CP --> 2380 m^3 in 1190 hours (lol)
So Hazou would probably be casting at 'several minutes' to '10 minutes' per cast, and getting somewhere between 125 m^3 and 215 m^3. How much area does that enclose?

We have a total perimeter of 340m to try and cover. The minimum thickness of the wall is 0.25m and in the interest of maximizing coverage let's assume that Hazou's been keeping it to that level. That gives us 500-860 m^2 to work with. If we cover the whole 340m perimeter then that leaves 1.4-2.5m of height on the walls, easily enough to give proper coverage.

Aaand ninja'd by faflec.

edit: for clarity, the end result is much closer to 2.5m than 1.4m, because Hazou is just shy of being able to do the whole thing in 10m casts at 36 hours when he has a maximum of 30. Given the fact that 2m is easily enough for our purposes, we can divide up the casts between 10 minutes and several minutes and still be fine.
 
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Kiba said:
What a waste of a chapter
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Kiba said:
A huge waste of time. We don't know a thing about what rock wants.
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Kiba said:
Wow, let leave strategic decision only to npc! That will go well!
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Kiba, after some thought and evaluation of the applicability of your comments and how I might factor them into the next chapter, I have this to say:

Cut it out.

I am sick of your pissy moaning. Your plans don't lose because the universe is out to get you, because the other players are stupid, or whatever else you're telling yourself. They lose because you want things that other players do not want, and you have consistently failed to convince those players to join your side. In particular, a sizable number of other people clearly aren't interested in politics and would prefer to do something that actually makes a more tangible/immediate difference in the world -- which also fits better into Hazō's / the players' expertise. You disagree with the choices and priorities of the players and the NPCs. We get it.

Seriously. You're a long-time player and I have really enjoyed most of your participation for the last four years, but your "contributions" these days are mostly just bitching. Find something constructive to do, find more prosocial ways of sharing your disagreements, or get out of my quest.
 
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faflec said:
Assuming a 20 hour work period, Hazou could instead cast 30min MEWs 23 times (costing 23CP and taking 11.5 hours), and casting 10min MEWs 52 times (costing 572CP and taking 8 hours 40 min). Hazou gets a little under 4 hours of sleep per day, and most of his sleep is plagued by nightmares of the missing 9 meters of MEW.
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I should have specified: Hazō has had a lot to do over the past few days in terms of organizing things and helping set up shelters, fences, etc. He can only spare 8 hours/day for MEW, and that's working himself to the bone.
 
faflec said:
I think we can afford to skimp on the thickness of the walls in favor of getting the walls all up.
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I'd imagine theres serious diminishing returns to making anything more than a quarter of a meter thick on the safety side of things. You can get away with >= 2 meters for the height and <=2 meters for the length within reasonable wiggle room.

You'd like, definitely want to make sure they can't just jump over the thing more than you'd want to make sure they wouldn't go through the thing, since the latter is likely much less of a problem for the average use case (a quarter meter of granite is still a fuckload of granite to punch through, but a meter isn't actually that difficult to jump over.)
 
eaglejarl said:
Kiba, after some thought and evaluation of the applicability of your comments and how I might factor them into the next chapter, I have this to say:

Go fuck yourself.

I am sick of your pissy moaning. Your plans don't lose because the universe is out to get you, because the other players are stupid, or whatever else you're telling yourself. They lose because you want things that other players do not want, and you have consistently failed to convince those players to join your side. In particular, a sizable number of other people clearly don't give a shit about the politics and would prefer to do something that actually makes a more tangible/immediate difference in the world -- which also fits better into Hazō's / the players' expertise. You disagree with the choices and priorities of the players and the NPCs. We get it.

Seriously. You're a long-time player and I have really enjoyed most of your participation for the last four years, but your "contributions" these days are mostly just bitching. Find something constructive to do, find more prosocial ways of sharing your disagreements, or get the fuck out of my quest.
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Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will share my disagreement and frustration in a way that is more prosocial.

In particular: improving Hazo capability and hivemind ability to plan.

In prioritizing actions that are high impact and beneficial.
 
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For absolutely no reason, I feel the need to peruse Jiraiya's notes on his research of FTG.

Because myself and MMKII realized that reverse summoning being different from summoning is very much the kind of "flip it over" that Jiraiya has been characterized to miss.
 
Just a reminder:

No matter what we do, it is absolutely imperative that we get Noburi started on the summoning training.

Noburi's bloodline, combined with a pile of otherwise useless chakra batteries a dozen or two Genin, and his genuinely likeable (he is probably the most inherently likeable character in the cast to people in universe, bar Mari) personality would allow him to essentially serve as his own One Man Army, the scale of which would put the Pangolin Pain Train of Event 5 to shame in its magnanimous roflstompitude.

This is besides any nigh-instantaneous super logistical OP bullshit nonsense we'd be able to do with Keiko and Noburi both having summoning contracts.

Get this man a summoning scroll.
 
MMKII said:
Just a reminder:

No matter what we do, it is absolutely imperative that we get Noburi started on the summoning training.

Noburi's bloodline, combined with a pile of otherwise useless chakra batteries a dozen or two Genin, and his genuinely likeable (he is probably the most inherently likeable character in the cast to people in universe, bar Mari) would allow him to essentially serve as his own One Man Army, the scale of which would put the Pangolin Pain Train of Event 5 to shame in its magnanimous roflstompitude.

This is besides any nigh-instantaneous super logistical OP bullshit nonsense we'd be able to do with Keiko and Noburi both having summoning contracts.

Get this man a summoning scroll.
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NB: The only people with contracts in Leaf (and who are not fucking evil) are Asuma and Keiko. One would observe that they are probably really fucking busy right now. Tsunade is a giant ??? but if she is actually in Leaf she's probably still really busy helping people.

Maybe we can offer to have Mari take over some of Keiko's (non-Nara) duties in exchange for her freeing up her time for Noburi? Or Asuma, either/or.
 
faflec said:
Maybe we can offer to have Mari take over some of Keiko's (non-Nara) duties in exchange for her freeing up her time for Noburi? Or Asuma, either/or.
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We'd have to be really careful how we phrased it, but we could propose that Asuma take on Naruto as a trainee for being hokage in the future, and then use his new free time for that.
 
Cariyaga said:
We'd have to be really careful how we phrased it, but we could propose that Asuma take on Naruto as a trainee for being hokage in the future, and then use his new free time for that.
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FAFLEC: Why the fuck would Naruto agree to help u–

CARIYAGA: We'd have to be really careful how we phrased it.

FAFLEC: Oh. Right. Uh, excuse me.
 
faflec said:
NB: The only people with contracts in Leaf (and who are not fucking evil) are Asuma and Keiko. One would observe that they are probably really fucking busy right now. Tsunade is a giant ??? but if she is actually in Leaf she's probably still really busy helping people.
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I don't want to be the guy that brings this up, but I'll be the guy that brings this up:

Both Kabuto and Orochimaru know the summoning technique, apparently? The latter is true, and the former was very heavily implied to be a thing IIRC, if not outright stated.

Failing that... well, Takahashi seems to need a bail out in the near future.

Coincidentally Leaf could use a couple hundred extra ninja now.
 
OliWhail said:
For context to us Imperials, that's 10 inches thick of solid granite 6.5 feet high. That's, uh, prrrrrretty sturdy.
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Is it just me or does this sound insufficient (height-wise) to keep Charka beasts out? Because as I understood, this is on the outside of Konoha's walls? Given the previous occupants of this land, slightly worrying... (In the short-term the area has been cleared, but this might need more investment in the future.)
 
Heleor said:
Is it just me or does this sound insufficient (height-wise) to keep Charka beasts out? Because as I understood, this is on the outside of Konoha's walls? Given the previous occupants of this land, slightly worrying... (In the short-term the area has been cleared, but this might need more investment in the future.)
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In the long term we'll probably start having meetings outside while Hazou uses MEW :V
 
Posting on a phone.

[X] Action Plan: Be prepared.

Get Mari's approval:
  • To higher up:
    • Prep a skywalker strike squad to be used in case of attacks by an enemy force. Equipped with youthenizers and 12-SINs for retaliatory strike.
    • Deploy skytowers against further incursion and monitoring of Iwa relief force. Or does Leaf wants to keep that as a trump card?
    • Have scouts been deployed? May be a good idea to contact our allies ASAP.
    • Volunteer to contact Mist.
  • Keep informed on negotiation.
  • Continue to improve the living condition inside the camp. People shouldn't have to live in tents.
  • Improve defensive posture if we have time.
  • Mari: Help setup the storage bank/seal subscription business. We could do both, but charge higher for more labor intensive subscription.
  • Noburi: Focus on learning from Asuma/Keiko on summoning if there's time.
  • Akane: Outreach to camp.
  • Kagome: Continue decoding Jiraiya's note/seal research. Hazo will assists.
 
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One thing we can do to determine if we have enough chakra for SC is to have Noburi observe how much chakra a user has before and after using the technique; since a dispelled Shadow Clone gives its chakra back to the original (at least, that's how Naruto acts about it), the difference in chakra levels before and after the use should tell us how much the flat cost SC has.

Related: Hey @Lailoken Noburi talked to Keiko about your Pangolin plan. Aren't you happy?
 
faflec said:
One thing we can do to determine if we have enough chakra for SC is to have Noburi observe how much chakra a user has before and after using the technique; since a dispelled Shadow Clone gives its chakra back to the original (at least, that's how Naruto acts about it), the difference in chakra levels before and after the use should tell us how much the flat cost SC has.

Related: Hey @Lailoken Noburi talked to Keiko about your Pangolin plan. Aren't you happy?
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Did we ever deliver that research proposal to Kabuto?
 
Cariyaga said:
For absolutely no reason, I feel the need to peruse Jiraiya's notes on his research of FTG.

Because myself and MMKII realized that reverse summoning being different from summoning is very much the kind of "flip it over" that Jiraiya has been characterized to miss.
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Yeah.

So here's the thing:

1) Flying Thunder God is a spacetime technique that uses both sealing and a jutsu to facilitate its OP-ness.
(Presumably) You cast a jutsu, and this 'ports you over to the FTG seal.

2) Reverse Summoning is a spacetime technique which works by porting the summoner to the location of the Summon performing the technique, and then back to the human realm where the summoning scroll is.


Strip away the trappings, and that sounds damn similar to me. Now, Jiraiya wasn't really a technique hacker (I don't think) and he didn't necessarily have a "Flip it upside down" mentality when it came to some of the stuff he had access to. Furthermore, there appears to be some very strong ingrained resistance to Summoners fucking with the Summoning Technique (perhaps with good reason). Minato was Mr. Super Genius though, and was J Man's apprentice, so its not unreasonable he learned the Summoning Technique just in case Jiraiya kicked the bucket one day.

So what I propose might be what happened (or might give similar results) is:

1) The jutsu part of FTG is some TH'd variant of the Summoning Technique.

2) The seal part is some sort of self-summoning contract-- just the identity and beacon parts for the RS technique. So any existing seal designs for this are "Seal that is the contract between Minato Namikaze and Minato Namikaze to let Minato Namikaze dismiss Minato Namikaze to the seal's location." This modification actually makes things easier to make for the Sealmaster, ironically, much in the same way that hardcoding stuff would be easier than making an extremely complex and robust system (as far as eldritch computer science goes anyway).

TL;DR We should look into that, and upon finding positive evidence maybe decide to throw XP into the requisite abilities and time into the requisite veterancy bonuses and then start pulling cosmic levers that people keep yelling at us to never ever touch (but definitely don't tell them, they'll throw us into a volcano).

...

...

I mean, it beats spending more XP on Athletics and Substitution. Fuck that shit!
 
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MMKII said:
Yeah.

So here's the thing:

1) Flying Thunder God is a spacetime technique that uses both sealing and a jutsu to facilitate its OP-ness.
(Presumably) You cast a jutsu, and this 'ports you over to the FTG seal.

2) Reverse Summoning is a spacetime technique which works by porting the summoner to the location of the Summon performing the technique, and then back to the human realm where the summoning scroll is.


Strip away the trappings, and that sounds damn similar to me. Now, Jiraiya wasn't really a technique hacker (I don't think) and he didn't necessarily have a "Flip it upside down" mentality when it came to some of the stuff he had access to. Furthermore, there appears to be some very strong ingrained resistance to Summoners fucking with the Summoning Technique (perhaps with good reason). Minato was Mr. Super Genius though, and was J Man's apprentice, so its not unreasonable he learned the Summoning Technique just in case Jiraiya kicked the bucket one day.

So what I propose might be what happened (or might give similar results) is:

1) The jutsu part of FTG is some TH'd variant of the Summoning Technique.

2) The seal part is some sort of self-summoning contract-- just the identity and beacon parts for the RS technique. So any existing seal designs for this are "Seal that is the contract between Minato Namikaze and Minato Namikaze to let Minato Namikaze dismiss Minato Namikaze to the seal's location." This modification actually makes things easier to make for the Sealmaster, ironically, much in the same way that hardcoding stuff would be easier than making an extremely complex and robust system (as far as eldritch computer science goes anyway).

TL;DR We should look into that, and upon finding positive evidence maybe decide to throw XP into the requisite abilities and time into the requisite veterancy bonuses and then start pulling cosmic levers that people keep yelling at us to never ever touch (but definitely don't tell them, they'll throw us into a volcano).

...

...

I mean, it beats spending more XP on Athletics and Substitution. Fuck that shit!
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We should start by looking at the Toad Summoning Scroll, since that's what Minato would have had the most access to. Maybe we could try downloading it?
 
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