Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- USA
I do very much support the idea of trying to be more collaborative with Hiashi, but I think this makes too many assumptions about how desperate Hiashi will be.
Also, Oro went to the tower first. If he wanted the hat, he could have "convinced" Hiashi to abdicate in his favour. I'm pretty sure that Hiashi and Oro have agreed some sort of deal where the former keeps his authority, so I don't think we have as much leverage as you're assuming.
He can also just call our bluff, and this will probably hurt us massively politically.
[X] Action Plan: Real Estate Play
[X] And Push It Somewhere Else
@eaglejarl
Your point that there are loads of reasons why "what brings me the most utility" isn't to murder and rape is definitely true! That's what I was referring to when I say
"very few of us really want to do this overall due to a whole host of competing pressures to NOT murder and rape people such as habit, social expectations, and morals. Let's put aside those first two and attribute our good behaviour to morals."
Let's assume that we're talking about a Ring of Gyges style moral infraction though, and so you don't have to worry about the many obvious pitfalls in the "murder/rape people and expect my life to end up better afterwards" approach.
You pointed out reasons why we want others to behave morally toward US (and each other), and I totally agree that that's in our best interest; but that doesn't explain why WE should care to act morally. At best, assuming they (or others) have (or will have) the same degree of power over you, this puts you into a prisoners dilemma, where you need communication/cooperation to ensure that others modulate their behaviour so you end up at the globally optimal outcome. This then resolves back to a (albeit somewhat weakened) form of the theists statement: "without an agreed upon (absolute) and dominant (supreme) standard of behaviour in these 'moral situations' there's no reason not to be a murderer/rapist when I'm able to avoid the repercussions of my actions." Again, I'm still sympathetic that this is more of an argument for moral absolutism, rather than theism in particular.
At worst, in the Ring Of Gyges situation, the crime is in fact a perfect crime and you don't even have to worry that your poor behaviour will affect society: nobody will even know it was a crime at all. In this situation your behaviour is essentially entirely decoupled from how it encourages others to act, and you still get all the benefits of your post-violent, technologically ascendent society, while still being able to commit your murders or three.
QUOTE="eaglejarl, post: 13214731, member: 10324"]
I am not convinced that it's possible for there to be an objective morality, although I am willing to change my mind if shown evidence. That leaves me only the 'moral relativist' position to choose from.
My definitions and assertions on the subject would be as follows:
Regardless, even if you disagree with the definitions, the idea of God providing an objective morality runs straight into the Euthyphro dilemma.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm I'm not sure that I agree that morality inheres in moral agents anymore than mathematics inheres in there being (for example) objects that can be counted, but I think that might be a definitional disagreement, and I don't think it's too important either.
QUOTE="eaglejarl, post: 13214731, member: 10324"]
As I replied, all moral systems have an axiomatic foundation -- that is, a foundation that must be chosen a priori and cannot be defended from within the bounds of the system itself. I would tentatively assert that Christians have a duty to choose as their foundation "The set of actions generated by answering the question 'what would God do in this situation' for every possible non-amoral situation." Atheists are free to choose any foundation that they like, but many of us choose "The set of actions that will maximize human weal and minimize human woe."[1]
[1] I would actually substitute 'sapient' for 'human' in that foundation, but that renders things more complicated than necessary for right now.
[/QUOTE]
I think the issue with Moral Relativism, is that from a Rights Theory concept, it's not justifiable for one to impose their personal moral framework on others, but if your approach is purely utilitarian, that's not a problem: for the greater good is likely to be an oft-repeated and valid (indeed the only valid) justification for many things. There's no need to involve rights theory in this though, and I am convinced that in its broad strokes there's no inconsistency between moral relativist attitude and pure utilitarianism.
- Hiashi is an S-Ranker himself: He survived the battle of the Gods and even Jiraiya admitted that Hiashi was his equal or better at close range.
- Hiashi has Tsunade somewhat in his pocket, who is probably the best person to actually check Oro.
- Our S-ranker isn't capable of standing up to Oro (although this is maybe bluffable)
The Hokageship is for life so I hope we aren't implying that we are backing Oro for the hat here because that is outright treason to the Hokage's face. It's WAY worse than "going pretty damn far", and definitely the kind of line that can get us killboxed.
Also, Oro went to the tower first. If he wanted the hat, he could have "convinced" Hiashi to abdicate in his favour. I'm pretty sure that Hiashi and Oro have agreed some sort of deal where the former keeps his authority, so I don't think we have as much leverage as you're assuming.
As mentioned above, depending on what deal Hiashi has agreed with Oro, having Oro take over the Gouketsu might be a huge boon for Hiashi. I'm pretty sure that managing Oro with the resources of a fledgling clan behind him, is FAR more palatable to Hiashi than managing Oro and at the same time fighting with the Gouketsu separately.
He can also just call our bluff, and this will probably hurt us massively politically.
AHHHH KILLBOXES, KILLBOXES EVERYWHERE.
Even aside from the somewhat treasonous implication that we'd ever not be supporting the tower in earnest, I think this is a shockingly mercenary move that will backfire politically and provide truth to the rumours that we're not in fact loyal, upstanding, Leaf nin.
[X] Action Plan: Real Estate Play
[X] And Push It Somewhere Else
@eaglejarl
You're right I've been fairly imprecise with the language here, and I think your rephrasing is fine. I have a few minor quibbles, but nothing particularly discussion-altering.
Your point that there are loads of reasons why "what brings me the most utility" isn't to murder and rape is definitely true! That's what I was referring to when I say
"very few of us really want to do this overall due to a whole host of competing pressures to NOT murder and rape people such as habit, social expectations, and morals. Let's put aside those first two and attribute our good behaviour to morals."
Let's assume that we're talking about a Ring of Gyges style moral infraction though, and so you don't have to worry about the many obvious pitfalls in the "murder/rape people and expect my life to end up better afterwards" approach.
You pointed out reasons why we want others to behave morally toward US (and each other), and I totally agree that that's in our best interest; but that doesn't explain why WE should care to act morally. At best, assuming they (or others) have (or will have) the same degree of power over you, this puts you into a prisoners dilemma, where you need communication/cooperation to ensure that others modulate their behaviour so you end up at the globally optimal outcome. This then resolves back to a (albeit somewhat weakened) form of the theists statement: "without an agreed upon (absolute) and dominant (supreme) standard of behaviour in these 'moral situations' there's no reason not to be a murderer/rapist when I'm able to avoid the repercussions of my actions." Again, I'm still sympathetic that this is more of an argument for moral absolutism, rather than theism in particular.
At worst, in the Ring Of Gyges situation, the crime is in fact a perfect crime and you don't even have to worry that your poor behaviour will affect society: nobody will even know it was a crime at all. In this situation your behaviour is essentially entirely decoupled from how it encourages others to act, and you still get all the benefits of your post-violent, technologically ascendent society, while still being able to commit your murders or three.
QUOTE="eaglejarl, post: 13214731, member: 10324"]
I am not convinced that it's possible for there to be an objective morality, although I am willing to change my mind if shown evidence. That leaves me only the 'moral relativist' position to choose from.
My definitions and assertions on the subject would be as follows:
- An agent is a being with some degree of volition. Humans, other animals, true AIs, extraterrestrials, etc are agents. Rocks and water are not.
- The universe of discourse for morality is actions taken by agents.
- Actions are moral ("good"), immoral ("bad"), or amoral ("not a moral question"). Possible examples that most people would agree on in most situations would be feeding the hungry (moral), killing innocents (immoral), and wearing red shoes (amoral).
- 'Objective morality' is a moral code that exists completely separate from agency, in exactly the same way that 'objective reality' exists separate from agency. If every agent, including God, was wiped out, the objective moral code would still exist in exactly the same way that objective reality would still exist even if everything in the universe disintegrated back into primordial hydrogen, leaving no agents / minds / etc to observe it.
Regardless, even if you disagree with the definitions, the idea of God providing an objective morality runs straight into the Euthyphro dilemma.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm I'm not sure that I agree that morality inheres in moral agents anymore than mathematics inheres in there being (for example) objects that can be counted, but I think that might be a definitional disagreement, and I don't think it's too important either.
QUOTE="eaglejarl, post: 13214731, member: 10324"]
As I replied, all moral systems have an axiomatic foundation -- that is, a foundation that must be chosen a priori and cannot be defended from within the bounds of the system itself. I would tentatively assert that Christians have a duty to choose as their foundation "The set of actions generated by answering the question 'what would God do in this situation' for every possible non-amoral situation." Atheists are free to choose any foundation that they like, but many of us choose "The set of actions that will maximize human weal and minimize human woe."[1]
[1] I would actually substitute 'sapient' for 'human' in that foundation, but that renders things more complicated than necessary for right now.
[/QUOTE]
I think the issue with Moral Relativism, is that from a Rights Theory concept, it's not justifiable for one to impose their personal moral framework on others, but if your approach is purely utilitarian, that's not a problem: for the greater good is likely to be an oft-repeated and valid (indeed the only valid) justification for many things. There's no need to involve rights theory in this though, and I am convinced that in its broad strokes there's no inconsistency between moral relativist attitude and pure utilitarianism.
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- Location
- Omniverse #1345
No, he isn't. He probably barely qualifies as an elite jounin if he does.
Will have to defer to @faflec to check me on this because I don't have a source for any of it but I thought
- Jiraiya said that Hiashi's gentle palms was so good that he wasn't sure if he could even take him at close range. I think he said he'd just open up the distance and wreck him, so maybe that's not TOO important but Jiraiya was happy to go toe to toe w/ Zabuza who is a melee S-ranker, so that implies some scary things about Hiashi's prowess.
- In the description of the battle of the gods, after Hiashi takes over as commander of the allied forces, Minori mentions that Akatsuki start targeting him specifically, and he still somehow comes out of the battle alive.
- I have a vague memory of either Shikamaru or someone else saying how Shikaku offered the "interim Hokage" solution because he wasn't sure who would win the Hiashi v. Jiraiya fight, but he was sure it wouldn't end well for the bystanders in the chamber + leaf in general.
but even with an optimistic estimate of his combat capabilities, I don't think it changes my overall point that we don't offer THAT much in terms of being a physical check on Oro.E: found the battle of the gods one:
"He'd assumed control of the Leaf forces the instant Lord Jiraiya's death was confirmed, with Lord Nara being already gone, and directed them masterfully… though by that point he had hardly anyone to direct. But the price of drawing the enemy's attention was that the enemy survivors homed in on him like they had on Lord Nara. He was a stronger combatant than Lord Nara, but still ended up the most injured of the allies—other than Lady Tsunade, who by then had stopped noticing wounds."
E2: eaglejarl said he wasn't S-rank so nevermind!
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Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
[X] Action Plan: Real Estate Play
[X] Action Plan: Contracts and Contacts
This is making a few assumptions that leave me uncomfortable, primarily the fact that we assume Hiashi's position is much weaker than it is. I think there might be some conflation going on about his current political situation where the vote got nearly split between Asuma's faction and himself, but against an internal or external foe like Orochimaru both sides would readily unite and deal with it.
Hiashi by himself isn't as weak as we think he is and in coordination with the jounin and Tsunade he should be able to handle Orochimaru. Our explicit support might help a little but we don't have that much leverage and care has to be given about how it is expressed because phrasing it like we don't care about the tower/Leaf if Hiashi doesn't play ball looks really, really bad.
I am also wary about having Hazou do the negotations. He doesn't have the skills for it unless it's written down meticulously in the plan as to what he should say and when.
Sending him with Mari and Naruto would seem like the obvious choice at first but Naruto hasn't been shy about letting people know how much he hates Hiashi and from what we have seem from him he isn't as much in control of his feelings as he might think he is (the whole posturing in the basement etc).
Mari could work, hopefully, in that she fears Orochimaru a lot more than she despises the Hyuuga.
Why do it this way when we can spread the word through the KEI in more subtle ways? My concern here is that this looks too much like antagonizing Orochimaru instead of blaming whoever sold us the house illegally. We really want to stay off Oro's radar for as long as possible until we find ways to counter him.
That would include the air due to the skywalkers and also the ground due to Rock ninja's inclination to dig. Considering how large of a compound we want to buy getting full coverage will be nearly impossible even for Kagome.
Should prioritize a smaller area first where the Goketsu live. And then focus on the KEI housings that are hopefully not too spread out.
Honestly, the more I think about Rock getting skywalkers the more worried I become. If you are faced with bombardment from above wouldn't your first inclination be to go underground if you can't counterattack immediately or flee the area?
But then if you go underground you open yourself up to their Earth jutsu which is what most Rock nin have an affinity for (like how Fire affinity is in Leaf and such).
Have an intermediate/KEI do this for us because the clan head running around and asking for drugs is just bad optics.
In addition, where is the training ground where the ritual is meant to happen? Inside Leaf? Because it seems like we do expect something to happen considering we have people guarding the place but is the risk of spawning Something Bad really worth trying to replicate the location where we met the whale?
I'd strongly suggest doing this somewhere outside of Leaf where whatever we may or may not summon won't be able to hurt anyone but ourselves if we decide to run for it. Getting people killed deliberately (and yes, that would be what it is considering we know that the Out is where scary and weird monsters come from) is a good way to get tried for treason.
[X] Action Plan: Contracts and Contacts
This is making a few assumptions that leave me uncomfortable, primarily the fact that we assume Hiashi's position is much weaker than it is. I think there might be some conflation going on about his current political situation where the vote got nearly split between Asuma's faction and himself, but against an internal or external foe like Orochimaru both sides would readily unite and deal with it.
Hiashi by himself isn't as weak as we think he is and in coordination with the jounin and Tsunade he should be able to handle Orochimaru. Our explicit support might help a little but we don't have that much leverage and care has to be given about how it is expressed because phrasing it like we don't care about the tower/Leaf if Hiashi doesn't play ball looks really, really bad.
I am also wary about having Hazou do the negotations. He doesn't have the skills for it unless it's written down meticulously in the plan as to what he should say and when.
Sending him with Mari and Naruto would seem like the obvious choice at first but Naruto hasn't been shy about letting people know how much he hates Hiashi and from what we have seem from him he isn't as much in control of his feelings as he might think he is (the whole posturing in the basement etc).
Mari could work, hopefully, in that she fears Orochimaru a lot more than she despises the Hyuuga.
Why do it this way when we can spread the word through the KEI in more subtle ways? My concern here is that this looks too much like antagonizing Orochimaru instead of blaming whoever sold us the house illegally. We really want to stay off Oro's radar for as long as possible until we find ways to counter him.
That would include the air due to the skywalkers and also the ground due to Rock ninja's inclination to dig. Considering how large of a compound we want to buy getting full coverage will be nearly impossible even for Kagome.
Should prioritize a smaller area first where the Goketsu live. And then focus on the KEI housings that are hopefully not too spread out.
Honestly, the more I think about Rock getting skywalkers the more worried I become. If you are faced with bombardment from above wouldn't your first inclination be to go underground if you can't counterattack immediately or flee the area?
But then if you go underground you open yourself up to their Earth jutsu which is what most Rock nin have an affinity for (like how Fire affinity is in Leaf and such).
Have an intermediate/KEI do this for us because the clan head running around and asking for drugs is just bad optics.
In addition, where is the training ground where the ritual is meant to happen? Inside Leaf? Because it seems like we do expect something to happen considering we have people guarding the place but is the risk of spawning Something Bad really worth trying to replicate the location where we met the whale?
I'd strongly suggest doing this somewhere outside of Leaf where whatever we may or may not summon won't be able to hurt anyone but ourselves if we decide to run for it. Getting people killed deliberately (and yes, that would be what it is considering we know that the Out is where scary and weird monsters come from) is a good way to get tried for treason.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
The Pact is Sealed
[X] And Push It Somewhere Else
[X] Action Plan: Real Estate Play
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think the drug trip actually has a higher chance of well, actually killing us the next update due to Out stuff and mental consequences (or resulting aftermath a la "Its too late, he's gone, blow him up." ) for what its worth.
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- Location
- Why would this be required?
[X] Action Plan: Real Estate Play
Dissonance
Luna's Luna
- Location
- Ginnungagap.
- Pronouns
- S/H/T
[x] Action plan: Hugs for snakes
- Location
- Why would this be required?
Probably
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
we definitely changed the direction of the quest
Dissonance
Luna's Luna
- Location
- Ginnungagap.
- Pronouns
- S/H/T
We veto... your prediction!
yes, yes, we know that's not how that works.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
It's fine, Mari won't let anything bad happen to us.
Look, she said not to worry! All will be fine.