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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Inferno Vulpix said:
Radvic doesn't want suffering, he wants to see nukes and the physics of the setting breaking in half. There just so happens to be people living on this planet.
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I just imagined the following sequence of events:

Update where, having started a space program, we blow up another planet: Happens
Person A: How would that affect the orbit of the planets @QMs?
QMs: HDK
Person B: *math that shows it will shift the EN's orbit into the sun*
Radvic: All according to keikaku

TaliesinSkye said:
Her approach of spreading the knowledge to everyone seems to have worked pretty well. It avoided the political problem of any one nation having a technological edge that other nations felt they had to react to.
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Yeah, that's the idea. There's some things we can keep to Leaf, but big sweeping changes we have to spread for the sake of international stability.
 
Roomba said:
Let's just say I'm very sceptical as to how possible this actually is in practice. In particular, the politics make it nearly impossible to do anything revolutionary without starting a series of awful, devastating wars. Getting the Elemental Nations to a state where all this beneficial technology we've thought up can actually be used without making a huge mess is one of the major challenges of this quest, in my view.
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Yeah 100% agree with you here. Though I am very much onboard with doing all those things regardless. Out of options with equivalent expected value I believe taking the one with the highest potential payout instead of the one with the least bad consequences.
 
Oneiros said:
Yeah 100% agree with you here. Though I am very much onboard with doing all those things regardless. Out of options with equivalent expected value I believe taking the one with the highest potential payout instead of the one with the least bad consequences.
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Don't you think relative risks factor into those sorts of decisions? Like, if the highest potential payout option only has a 1% chance of success and a 99% chance of backfiring horribly it seems like it might be a bad idea to go for the highest payout option.

Edit: Oh, maybe that's what you meant by equivalent expected value.
 
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Cariyaga said:
Talk to Tsunade. She's got experience with spreading beneficial technology.
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TaliesinSkye said:
Her approach of spreading the knowledge to everyone seems to have worked pretty well. It avoided the political problem of any one nation having a technological edge that other nations felt they had to react to.
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Cariyaga said:
Yeah, that's the idea. There's some things we can keep to Leaf, but big sweeping changes we have to spread for the sake of international stability.
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Peace between the Elemental Nations is so fragile that it was effectively destroyed by a group of clueless missing-nin collapsing part of an inn and killing three people. If you think it's going to be easy to maintain as society is rapidly transformed by major technological breakthroughs, then I applaud your optimism.

Note, also, that when I talk about war, I don't necessarily mean direct conflict between major villages. Or even conflict between nations at all.
 
MMKII said:
Are you a fan of gunboat diplomacy fist-punch diplomacy to accomplish these goals? Just curious
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Fist Punch diplomacy definitely has a place but has to be a carefully considered option. You need to have defined goals, a defined scope of the conflict you are creating and, a plan to deal with enemy agency. I am a fan of the first Gulf War not a fan of Vietnam or the second Gulf War
 
Roomba said:
Peace between the Elemental Nations is so fragile that it was effectively destroyed by a group of clueless missing-nin collapsing part of an inn and killing three people. If you think it's going to be easy to maintain as society is rapidly transformed by major technological breakthroughs, then I applaud your optimism.

Note, also, that when I talk about war, I don't necessarily mean direct conflict between major villages. Or even conflict between nations at all.
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I dont really see this being viable until either our personal power or Leafs relative military tech level is arbitrarily high to the point where any open conflict would be extremely unfeasible for other nations.

If the Mist alliance works out and we can tighten up relations between Sand, some of the minor villages nearby Leaf/Mist and Leaf, then we can form SuperBloc Leaf and the above will be much easier than with just Leaf alone, relatively speaking.

Of course this is relatively far in the future and isnt very viable in the short term, but we can inch towards it as long as it doesnt conflict with short term goals.

Oneiros said:
Fist Punch diplomacy definitely has a place but has to be a carefully considered option. You need to have defined goals, a defined scope of the conflict you are creating and, a plan to deal with enemy agency. I am a fan of the first Gulf War not a fan of Vietnam or the second Gulf War
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Yes I very much agree. Pointless conflict is a waste of time, resources and manpower.
 
I mean, this is exactly why we gave Skywalkers to Leaf, expected them to alpha-strike some juicy target, and they did just that. Peace through overwhelming firepower.
 
Roomba said:
Peace between the Elemental Nations is so fragile that it was effectively destroyed by a group of clueless missing-nin collapsing part of an inn and killing three people. If you think it's going to be easy to maintain as society is rapidly transformed by major technological breakthroughs, then I applaud your optimism.

Note, also, that when I talk about war, I don't necessarily mean direct conflict between major villages. Or even conflict between nations at all.
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Uh, that wasn't peace between the elemental nations being destroyed. That was a convenient casus belli for the warmongers of mist.

e: Rest assured that they'd have found another without us.
 
Peace through overwhelming firepower worked IRL, I can't see any reason it wouldn't work with bloodthirsty vengeance-driven ninja :whistle:
 
Cariyaga said:
Peace through overwhelming firepower worked IRL, I can't see any reason it wouldn't work with bloodthirsty vengeance-driven ninja :whistle:
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IKR?

People dead in WWI + WWII (10 years): ~100M
People dead in all wars post WWII (73 years): ~50M

Years since nuclear weaponry used during warfare: 73
 
Cariyaga said:
Uh, that wasn't peace between the elemental nations being destroyed. That was a convenient casus belli for the warmongers of mist.

e: Rest assured that they'd have found another without us.
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It really wasn't a casus belli at all. In fact, it didn't directly start any wars. What it did, was give Mist an opportunity to gain a foothold on the continent, and as a result, put them on a collision course with Leaf. I doubt Ren was sent to Hot Springs with the intent of provoking Leaf, that was simply an inevitable side-effect of Mist growing in power.

Which is beside the point, really. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to argue here. Yes, hidden villages having significant warhawk factions is one of the reasons the peace is fragile. Are you planning to avoid responsibility for wars caused by reckless proliferation of technology by claiming they would've happened regardless?
 
Cariyaga said:
Uh, that wasn't peace between the elemental nations being destroyed. That was a convenient casus belli for the warmongers of mist.

e: Rest assured that they'd have found another without us.
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Yeah, because Yagura was a fucking nutcase.

I sort of wonder if Akatsuki had fingers in that pie like they did in canon, come to think of it.
 
MMKII said:
Yeah, because Yagura was a fucking nutcase.

I sort of wonder if Akatsuki had fingers in that pie like they did in canon, come to think of it.
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In canon, Akatsuki was directly responsible for Yagura's nutcase-ness, since we know that Obito was mind-controlling the guy and his bijuu. MfD!Yagura, having not been exposed to Obito's genjutsu (since WOG says Obito is dead), is still evil, just...less crazy about it.
 
Cariyaga said:
Peace through overwhelming firepower worked IRL, I can't see any reason it wouldn't work with bloodthirsty vengeance-driven ninja :whistle:
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It nearly worked in the elemental nations. Then the akatsuki showed up. There are hidden forces in this world, and while the villages are powerful, they are not the most powerful things around.

The most powerful force for which we have any evidence for are the Watchers. They seem benevolent, or at least responsible. Why haven't they enforced peace? Do they think themselves incapable, or do they not care? If they can be influenced or helped, they might be the only gun big enough for bigger gun diplomacy. Even then they might be below Madara, the Sage, or Kaguya.

Speaking of the watchers, how long have they been around? I think they would have to have been around since at least the warring clans period. Otherwise a clan would have created a sealing failure factory and ended the world.

So the watchers predate reliable history. So they probably don't die of old age, because there is no way an organization that had to recruit would stay that secret and that good for that long. Huh.
 
faflec said:
Uh, I wasn't talking about adopting Radvic's goals (though I personally think Radvic does want to build more nukes); I was talking about adopting Radvic's suggestions for transfinite bombs. Which would destroy everything. Ever.
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Now, now, let's not overestimate our weapons. Even the effect of that pulsar-based transfinite bomb would likely be confined to Marked for Death's universe only. It wouldn't touch notional separate universes, it probably wouldn't touch "pocket" universes akin to the insides of storage scrolls, and most importantly it wouldn't destroy our (readers') universe.

It sounds like you're looking for a Class-Z Reality Failure (or "Original Negation" as per this classification), and it could only be caused by some truly esoteric devices. Esoteric enough that even @Radvic didn't come up with anything similar yet (e: AFAIK).

I'd guess some kind of self-sustaining mutating sealing failure with a positive feedback loop would do it, but I don't know how to even begin setting it up. Also, we'd need to force QMs to faithfully simulate it, so that it gets our universe too; that would be a different problem entirely.
 
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Vecht said:
IKR?

People dead in WWI + WWII (10 years): ~100M
People dead in all wars post WWII (73 years): ~50M

Years since nuclear weaponry used during warfare: 73
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I know you're being facetious, but it bears repeating that a lot of the unexpectedly stabilizing effect nuclear weaponry had on global politics came down to the fact that only major powers could properly afford it. If cheap suitcase nukes capable of destroying major cities existed, the world would look very different.

Something to think about when considering what effect proliferation of WMDs would have on the state of MfD-verse.
 
faflec said:
In canon, Akatsuki was directly responsible for Yagura's nutcase-ness, since we know that Obito was mind-controlling the guy and his bijuu. MfD!Yagura, having not been exposed to Obito's genjutsu (since WOG says Obito is dead), is still evil, just...less crazy about it.
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Ah, right. Forgot about that.Thank you, oh Loremaster.

In other news, how strong are Force Walls exactly? Do we have any idea what the upper bound is on their "invulnerability" or what level of force they can actually withstand a direct impact from? I'm assuming the description of the seal is more flavor text than not, since vanilla "Invulnerable" is some crazy shit.
 
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