Well if we were just using PLU for everyone, then "this ninja is PL10" has no meaning. No he isn't, he's PLU, just like the rest of us. He may have 150 power points, but he's not going to have a limit of 20 to his STR + Close Combat: Unarmed. For all we know, he's got a total of 40 to that. Or 50. Or he's spend all his points on Close: Combat Unarmed, giving him an attack check bonus of +300.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Well if we were just using PLU for everyone, then "this ninja is PL10" has no meaning. No he isn't, he's PLU, just like the rest of us. He may have 150 power points, but he's not going to have a limit of 20 to his STR + Close Combat: Unarmed. For all we know, he's got a total of 40 to that. Or 50. Or he's spend all his points on Close: Combat Unarmed, giving him an attack check bonus of +300.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Ah, okay. That makes sense.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Don't we do that already, given that Jounin are built with a certain exp count and we only have a benchmark for how much they'll be rolling against you in combat?
The difference is that in M&M going from rank 1 to rank 2 costs exactly as many points as going from rank 101 to rank 102. Which means that M&M characters have a much wider spread of abilities than has been shown in-story.
To put this in perspective, a PL5 genin who minmaxed their Close Combat: Unarmed (+148, Skill Mastery: Close Combat: Unarmed) is always going to beat the Parry defence of a PL-limited (read: balanced) PL15 S-ranker (+15). The genin literally cannot miss.
The problem with PLU is that we don't have even just a benchmark anymore. What the enemy is rolling is completely unknown.
Whereas, using PLs, you would know that if a high genin is PL8 then their attack+effect is going to be 16 if they're optimised. And a PL20 demigod ninja is going to have an attack+effect of 40. You get the gist.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
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- United States
Sounds like we need some sort of limitting factor. Like maybe some stats that could limit how high you could level things. Maybe a set of 12 of them?
What if... we just rolled a lot of the stuff on Hazou's in-universe load-out under a set of mechanics that don't perfectly represent it for simplicity's sake? And then have seals just as artefacts instead of devices, and have them not contribute to PL-limits.
150/150PP
Abilities (STR 8, STA 2, AGL 2, DEX 0, FGT 6, INT 4, AWE 2, PRE 4.) @ 56PP
Defences (Dodge 14 [+16]. Fortitude 6 [+8]. Parry 10 [+16]. Toughness 2 [+4]. Will 10 [+12].) @ 42PP
Skills (Close Combat: Unarmed 6 [+12]. Deception 10 [+14/+19]. Expertise: Sealing 16 [+20].) @ 16PP
Advantages (Artificer: Sealing. Attractive 2. Benefit: noble. Benefit: hokage's son.) @ 5PP
Iron Nerve (Feature 2: major circumstance bonus to Sealing design/construction checks. Feature: perfectly replicate past movements.) @ 3PP
Roki (Accurate Attack. Daze: Deception. Improved Critical 2: Unarmed.) @ 4PP
Techniques (Array, max 20:
Abilities (STR 8, STA 2, AGL 2, DEX 0, FGT 6, INT 4, AWE 2, PRE 4.) @ 56PP
Defences (Dodge 14 [+16]. Fortitude 6 [+8]. Parry 10 [+16]. Toughness 2 [+4]. Will 10 [+12].) @ 42PP
Skills (Close Combat: Unarmed 6 [+12]. Deception 10 [+14/+19]. Expertise: Sealing 16 [+20].) @ 16PP
Advantages (Artificer: Sealing. Attractive 2. Benefit: noble. Benefit: hokage's son.) @ 5PP
Iron Nerve (Feature 2: major circumstance bonus to Sealing design/construction checks. Feature: perfectly replicate past movements.) @ 3PP
Roki (Accurate Attack. Daze: Deception. Improved Critical 2: Unarmed.) @ 4PP
Techniques (Array, max 20:
- MEW (Create stone shapes 6, ranged, continuous, limited: walls.)
- Earth Clone (Summon earth clones 2, multiple minions 3, horde, continuous.)
- Living Roots (Senses 1: ranged touch, continuous, medium: the ground, linked to... Enhanced Perception 16 [+20], continuous, medium: the ground.)
- HLaM (Burrowing 10, continuous.)
- Pangolin Earth Armour (Enhanced Trait: Toughness 16, impervious 20, decrease Dodge and Parry by 16 each, continuous.)
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hm... I'm not sure M&M is really appropriate here, tbh, because it doesn't really support the kind of in-character munchkinism that the setting requires. There's no real point in trying harder past the PL you're at, because you literally can't get stronger than 2xPL at anything.
e: Which honestly sucks because other than that, and the inability to balance PLU it seems like a system that could work well with MfD.
e: Which honestly sucks because other than that, and the inability to balance PLU it seems like a system that could work well with MfD.
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Am I right in thinking that GURPS doesn't provide the entire ruleset for free online like M&M does?
It may be because I'm used to M&M, but this system confuses the hell out me. 100pts is a heroic character? That seems way too low to build a ninja.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I would expect Hazou to be closer to 300-500 tbh. That said, yes, it's kind of confusing.
Roadie
A plate full of blins and a cat nearby.
"Heroic" in GURPS terms means pulp fantasy, not MfD characters. The Basic Set: Characters book includes example characters of up to 1,665 points (an eight-foot-tall Buddhist hexapod combat robot with assorted built-in heavy weapons).
- Location
- London
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
[jk] Research Plan: Eight-foot-tall Buddhist hexapod combat robot with assorted built-in heavy weapons
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
So, I'm a bit confused by the discussion of HERO, as I read it as HERO System/Champions, and I see people using it to refer to d20Hero/M&M which are two very distinct flexible character creation systems.
(As an aside, I'm fonder of Hero System 5th than 6th due to liking derived stats as a default)
(As an aside, I'm fonder of Hero System 5th than 6th due to liking derived stats as a default)
- Location
- In my Lair, on my Hoard
As someone with a good deal of experience with M&M... I probably wouldn't have built Hazou the way you did, Mad. Like, Strength 8 means Hazou would be able to bench 6 tons without any strain. Not to mention the ridiculously low Stamina in comparison doesn't really match up either. Similarly with the ludicrous levels of Deception and Expertise: Sealing - a +20 skill modifier is approaching the level that guys like Mr. Fantastic have for their Science and Tech scores... Similarly with MEW's limitation not being that limited, as well as Pangolin Armor being better described as Impervious Toughness coupled with the Withstand Damage advantage ported over from the M&M 2e feat.
GURPS may or may not be the best way to go about this because, as mentioned, when things don't scale well at the high skill levels, and game-play is kinda slow given you've got to roll a bunch of dice and do a lot of math for a single attack.
Similarly with HERO system what with the whole "speed" thing and having a huge level of overhead with how you can't just improvise new abilities on the fly in true shonen-manga-style, and that every little parameter has to be defined when purchased, and changing the parameters is difficult.
Perhaps it would be better to look into something d6 based... I recall seeing someone make a simple Naruto hack using the d6 system (on rpg.net?), and there's also the option of hacking another generic game. Maybe BRP or ORE or even EABA. Or hell, I recall a bunch of people making their own systems somewhere online... there's the Naruto d20 (which we're probably shying away from) and an incomplete one I remember being called Path of Chaos or something...
GURPS may or may not be the best way to go about this because, as mentioned, when things don't scale well at the high skill levels, and game-play is kinda slow given you've got to roll a bunch of dice and do a lot of math for a single attack.
Similarly with HERO system what with the whole "speed" thing and having a huge level of overhead with how you can't just improvise new abilities on the fly in true shonen-manga-style, and that every little parameter has to be defined when purchased, and changing the parameters is difficult.
Perhaps it would be better to look into something d6 based... I recall seeing someone make a simple Naruto hack using the d6 system (on rpg.net?), and there's also the option of hacking another generic game. Maybe BRP or ORE or even EABA. Or hell, I recall a bunch of people making their own systems somewhere online... there's the Naruto d20 (which we're probably shying away from) and an incomplete one I remember being called Path of Chaos or something...
Feel free to come up with a build yourself. This is like the fifth different one I've made, I think?
I put the STR 8 because Hazou can punch through skulls, 8 is "low superhuman" and I don't think humans can do that. The low STA is because STA adds to Toughness and ninja seem to be "squishy but nimble" in this setting. I put the Sealing at +20 because it's the limit at PL10 and Sealing is one of Hazou's primary focuses. He's also described as "freakishly good" for his age, so there's that. +20 felt like the natural conclusion. As for the "limited: walls", well... it kind of is a limit. Create without a limited flaw would let him create all kinds of stone structures, but MEW in-universe can only create flat vertical walls. Do you feel that it would be better represented by quirk than by limited?
I've built that thing like four different ways now.
I put the STR 8 because Hazou can punch through skulls, 8 is "low superhuman" and I don't think humans can do that. The low STA is because STA adds to Toughness and ninja seem to be "squishy but nimble" in this setting. I put the Sealing at +20 because it's the limit at PL10 and Sealing is one of Hazou's primary focuses. He's also described as "freakishly good" for his age, so there's that. +20 felt like the natural conclusion. As for the "limited: walls", well... it kind of is a limit. Create without a limited flaw would let him create all kinds of stone structures, but MEW in-universe can only create flat vertical walls. Do you feel that it would be better represented by quirk than by limited?
I've built that thing like four different ways now.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Only with chakra boost. He's not strong enough normally.
Technically it can create them at any upward angle.
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Well, yeah. But I'm including boost in his STR value, just like I'm including both boost and substitution in his Dodge and Parry values. On the other hand, you can't chakra boost your Toughness.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
I do quite like Wild Talents...
Except if you can't chakra boost your toughness, how come Hazou's arm doesn't explode when he hits someone with superhuman force?
- Location
- Yes.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Rolling dice and math shouldn't be an issue 'cause we can do at least some of it programmatically.
e: TBH though I don't think we'll be finding a system we're truly satisfied with :/
e2: GURPS, from what I've seen, will resolve the technique/seal-creation problem, but it's not really gonna make option creep any better. I'm also not particularly familiar with the probabilities involved in dice, and the system overall is more suited to players actively choosing what their characters do, with regards to their options.
e3:
So, some thoughts. It's probably possible to modify GURPS to our ends (I mean, that is what it's meant for), but it'll require some effort.
For instance, I'd like to just port over the skills/XP system we've been using, rather than having to learn a new one, and just using the GURPS conflict resolution system instead. This also has the side effect of keeping the general progression the same, insofar as genin/chuunin/jounin, etc. goes.
HOWEVER, in order to do so, we have to figure out what to do with attributes, because in GURPS, all skills increase along with their attributes, and on top of that we'd need to figure out what to do with the attribute requirement system.
It's kind of a... project. But I don't think we'll be able to find a satisfactory system without major overhauls to it. Hopefully I'm wrong!
e4:
I had a thought. I can't remember exactly what Hazou said, but he thought something to the effect of techniques keying into the same thing as seals, right?
Technique Hacking (from what we've heard) doesn't seem to cause the same class of failure ass seals do. Sure, Technique Hacking Failures can kill the user, but as far as I know, it's as a consequence of what the technique does (ie, an earth technique failure might replace your blood with stone if you make a mistake in its formulation), and is limited in effect to the user's chakra pool in a way that seals aren't. Technique Hacking Failures generally cause behaviour defined by the technique's intended effects as opposed to the undefined behaviour seals exhibit.
This being the case, a possibility as to how the Hiraishin Technique works:
HT uses the Hiraishin Seals as a method to bypass the Chakra Diffusion problem. Hiraishin Seals, each identical and infused with the user's chakra, serve as beacons in the Out, that HT detects the location of and uses the "hole" in the out that they make to determine their location in the elemental nations, then teleports the user there. The teleportation itself is straight chakra magic, probably a THed substitution technique.
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